quote:

Originally posted by wad borkrate But United's performance against Athletic is completely understandable if you put a little thought in to it.

Yes: United have been absolutely abysmal in Europe this season, including the very prestigious Champion's League, and this is just the latest example of their sloppiness, complacency and poor tactics.

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quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights What you fail to recognize here is the implications of what you're saying. So Madrid and Barca have access to more lopsided revenue streams. What does that say about the rest of the teams in La Liga? What does that say about teams in the Premier League that aren't named Man Utd, Liverpool, or Arsenal? Valencia pocketed less in TV revenues last year than West Ham did. The key point then is that 5 of the 16 teams remaining in competition in Europe are Spanish!

Have you actually looked at the lineups English teams field in the Europa League? For years they have been playing their youth team players in the competition. Spanish teams take it more seriously because owing to the Real/Barca domination it's their one chance to shine.

Considering you take results of single matches in knockout competitions so seriously you must have had a heart attack a couple of years ago for that all English final? By your logic the Spanish league has gone from absolutely terrible to the best league in the world in only three and a half years.

Or maybe matches in knockout competitions don't give definitive answers about the strength of teams, have you considered that?

Chelsea vs Real Final.

Barca suck.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Yes: United have been absolutely abysmal in Europe this season, including the very prestigious Champion's League, and this is just the latest example of their sloppiness, complacency and poor tactics.

The kind of sloppiness, complacency and poor tactics that has them currently leading the league? and has seen them in the past five years win it FOUR times and reach the Champions League final on THREE occasions, on a transfer budget only the eight highest in England and positively dwarfed by the likes of Real, Barcelona, Man City & Chelsea?

Clearly you know more about tactics than Sir Alex Ferguson and you should be next in line to replace him when he finally dies.

I was in London when Fulham were in the Europa League final a couple of years ago and it got less media coverage than most Premier League games get.

It's SIGNIFICANTLY less prestigious than either the FA or League Cups.

English clubs and their fans just don't care about the Europa League.

quote:

Originally posted by wad borkrate English clubs and their fans just don't care about the Europa League.

That's a lie. There are clubs like mine, Bolton, Fulham & others whose fans were honoured to be taking part in european competition. The problem is that teams who are either a) used to the champions league and their teams didn't qualify or went out at the group stages look down upon it or b) have managers who disrespect it again because they think they're too big for it. I enjoyed seeing sides play at my stadium like Sporting Lisbon & Atletico Madrid and we would never have seen them otherwise without the europa league/uefa cup.

quote:

Originally posted by wad borkrate The kind of sloppiness, complacency and poor tactics that has them currently leading the league? and has seen them in the past five years win it FOUR times and reach the Champions League final on THREE occasions, on a transfer budget only the eight highest in England and positively dwarfed by the likes of Real, Barcelona, Man City & Chelsea

No. I would have thought was obvious. Man United's performance in Europe has been disastrously poor this season compared to their past record, especially in possibly the weakest Champion's League group of the season, so it's clear something is different. Ferguson himself is stumped by it and Patrice Evra thinks United have been overly complacent, which is a very different thing from not caring. United have not prepared well enough for European matches this season, not mentally or tactically.

Comparisons to past success in Europe are largely irrelevant, given the finals of 2008 and 2009 were achieved using a totally different 4-3-3 system heavily influenced by erstwhile assistant coach Carlos Queiroz and based around the talents of two players (Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez) who aren't at the club anymore. United have had quite a lot of squad upheaval in the summer, with retirements, sales of utility players, the recruitment of new, younger players with little or no European experience and a string of key injuries throughout the season. Despite heavy outlay on new players, there is still a rather glaring hole in central midfield, which has left Ferguson resorting to playing Rooney in midfield and then bringing Scholes out of retirement.

Ferguson is a better tactician than he used to be, but his teams have not been playing tightly enough in Europe this season. They have taken to playing far too openly to try and outgun the opposition, a regression to the gung-ho tactics of the '90s which has resulted in scores like 2-3, 1-2 and 3-3 at home. Notably, they are not the only side to do this. It appears to be league-wide trend which has accounted for the abysmal European performances of all the Premiership teams this season. Here's some further analysis: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/02...-english-clubs/

By the way, I support a club (Middlesbrough) who reached the UEFA Cup final a few years back, and to all our supporters it was the most prestigious moment in the club's history - more important than reaching the finals of the League or FA Cup, which we had done in the last decade. The Europa League doesn't recieve a high level of TV coverage relative to other competitions because it only involves between one and three English clubs, which are often not particularly well supported (Fulham, Bolton and Middlesbrough being great examples), so there is not as much TV revenue involved. Ferguson pledged to play his strongest squad in the Europa League and did so, as did Manchester City. I watched City go out of the competition to Sporting Lisbon on Thursday at the Etihad Stadium, and the thousands of fans around me were gutted that they'd been eliminated, after Roberto Mancini had played his strongest available squad. Frankly, as someone who apparently lives in Ohio, I don't think you're in any position to tell English fans of English clubs how we treat our competitions.

To summarise, writing off United's European woes as simply not caring because they'd rather beat City to the league is simple blind fanboy logic. United crashed out of the most elite club competition in world football, unable to beat a Swiss team home or away, and they were utterly outplayed in both leagues against a side 7th in the Spanish league. The manager has called it a "bad season", the players label it a "disaster" and every Man United fan I have spoken to has been totally embarassed by their showing. But you keep on telling yourself they went out because they didn't really care.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No. I would have thought was obvious. Man United's performance in Europe has been disastrously poor this season compared to their past record, especially in possibly the weakest Champion's League group of the season, so it's clear something is different. Ferguson himself is stumped by it and Patrice Evra thinks United have been overly complacent, which is a very different thing from not caring. United have not prepared well enough for European matches this season, not mentally or tactically. Comparisons to past success in Europe are largely irrelevant, given the finals of 2008 and 2009 were achieved using a totally different 4-3-3 system heavily influenced by erstwhile assistant coach Carlos Queiroz and based around the talents of two players (Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez) who aren't at the club anymore. United have had quite a lot of squad upheaval in the summer, with retirements, sales of utility players, the recruitment of new, younger players with little or no European experience and a string of key injuries throughout the season. Despite heavy outlay on new players, there is still a rather glaring hole in central midfield, which has left Ferguson resorting to playing Rooney in midfield and then bringing Scholes out of retirement. Ferguson is a better tactician than he used to be, but his teams have not been playing tightly enough in Europe this season. They have taken to playing far too openly to try and outgun the opposition, a regression to the gung-ho tactics of the '90s which has resulted in scores like 2-3, 1-2 and 3-3 at home. Notably, they are not the only side to do this. It appears to be league-wide trend which has accounted for the abysmal European performances of all the Premiership teams this season. Here's some further analysis: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/02...-english-clubs/ By the way, I support a club (Middlesbrough) who reached the UEFA Cup final a few years back, and to all our supporters it was the most prestigious moment in the club's history - more important than reaching the finals of the League or FA Cup, which we had done in the last decade. The Europa League doesn't recieve a high level of TV coverage relative to other competitions because it only involves between one and three English clubs, which are often not particularly well supported (Fulham, Bolton and Middlesbrough being great examples), so there is not as much TV revenue involved. Ferguson pledged to play his strongest squad in the Europa League and did so, as did Manchester City. I watched City go out of the competition to Sporting Lisbon on Thursday at the Etihad Stadium, and the thousands of fans around me were gutted that they'd been eliminated, after Roberto Mancini had played his strongest available squad. Frankly, as someone who apparently lives in Ohio, I don't think you're in any position to tell English fans of English clubs how we treat our competitions. To summarise, writing off United's European woes as simply not caring because they'd rather beat City to the league is simple blind fanboy logic. United crashed out of the most elite club competition in world football, unable to beat a Swiss team home or away, and they were utterly outplayed in both leagues against a side 7th in the Spanish league. The manager has called it a "bad season", the players label it a "disaster" and every Man United fan I have spoken to has been totally embarassed by their showing. But you keep on telling yourself they went out because they didn't really care.

Massive wall of insanity text from known fantasist who thinks he knows enough about tactics to critique one of the most successful coaches of all time. Embarrassed right now that we are even the same species but so long as you don't breed we cool.

Insane response that doesn't seem to actually reference my arguments at all but more what you imagine my arguments might be but actually aren't (a clear sign of mental illness). Noticeably you don't actually seem to disagree with the point of my argument, that the fact there are Spanish teams remaining in the competition doesn't mean much considering at least three of the English clubs this year noticeably didn't care enough about the competition to field a strong side.

Nobody disputes that United (and City...) didn't do well enough in the group stages of the Champions League but only a contrarian like you would insist that they both (and Tottenham, perhaps other teams) actually cared about the Europa League and will be hurt by exiting it.

quote:

Originally posted by wad borkrate Noticeably you don't actually seem to disagree with the point of my argument, that the fact there are Spanish teams remaining in the competition doesn't mean much considering at least three of the English clubs this year noticeably didn't care enough about the competition to field a strong side.

No, but I noticeably never quoted or replied to that point. The point I quoted and replied to was an assertion that United's hammering at the hands of Bilbao can be attributed to them not caring about the Europa League, an assertion I have made mincemeat of and countered with an assertion of my own, namely that their hammering at the hands of Bilbao is symptomatic of a larger trend of underachievement in Europe.

And your defence of Ferguson is an appeal to authority. Everyone makes mistakes, and those mistakes are sometimes easier to see from a detached perspective and with the benefit of hindsight. I would never claim to be a better coach than Ferguson, but that does not automatically invalidate any criticisms I have, and if you think otherwise you're a mouth-breathing fuckwit too tied up in your partisan fanship and possible alt-account semi-trolling to see any sense.

I eagerly await your triple post of rage in response.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No, but I noticeably never quoted or replied to that point. The point I quoted and replied to was an assertion that United's hammering at the hands of Bilbao can be attributed to them not caring about the Europa League, an assertion I have made mincemeat of and countered with an assertion of my own, namely that their hammering at the hands of Bilbao is symptomatic of a larger trend of underachievement in Europe. And your defence of Ferguson is an appeal to authority. Everyone makes mistakes, and those mistakes are sometimes easier to see from a detached perspective and with the benefit of hindsight. I would never claim to be a better coach than Ferguson, but that does not automatically invalidate any criticisms I have, and if you think otherwise you're a mouth-breathing fuckwit too tied up in your partisan fanship and possible alt-account semi-trolling to see any sense. I eagerly await your triple post of rage in response.

You clearly have confused "making mincemeat of" and "responding in long insane ramblings that have little to do with the point I am responding to".

FYI Quieroz was assistant for only one of Ferguson's six European final appearances. Quick, run to Wikipedia and find out who the other's were so you can tell us how each of them were responsible for all his success.

I would type more now but I am just too rage filled. Gonna go punch a wall.

I love how you accuse me of making irrelevant points and then make reference to Ferguson's six European finals, one of which happened in the 1980s while managing a different team, two of which were in a different competition and only half of which occurred during the period you specified:

quote:

The kind of sloppiness, complacency and poor tactics that has... seen them in the past five years... reach the Champions League final on THREE occasions

Also note the use of the word "influenced" in my post. Queiroz didn't have to be at the club for the team to continue using the system he helped implement, at least until they were forced to dismantle the frontline that made it work. The point is that United's past successes in Europe involved different tactics, systems and players and so tactically have almost nothing to do with Ferguson's current problems. Ergo, reference to them in no way invalidates my argument that United have been tactically weak in Europe this season. My point is not that Queiroz is responsible for United's success, it's that he was an integral part of a different tactical epoch.

It's easy to see why you interpret my posts as "insane ramblings" when you are incapable of following the line of debate for more than three posts.

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