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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Certainly, that is the view of some and certainly one very valid way to interpret the Jesus story. That view holds that God chose to live a life as man in order to experience being human. To have a fully human life, so that he may know man, and experience life as one of us, love as one of us, serve us as one of us, worship as one of us, struggle as one of us, suffer as one of us, and die as one of us. Certainly, I believe that is true as well (incidently this is part of why I believe it is unreasonable to believe Jesus was not married). Now, there is a divergance as to whether this was necessary for God to forgive sins or if forgiveness of sins was already present and this was necessary to exhibit that love and forgiveness to man. If either is true (of course presuposing that any of it is true) I would suspect the latter as the former would necessitate that God's love was conditional before and only made absolute through his life as Jesus. Certainly, there is much in the old testament that would support this; even the idea that man has lessons to teach God, as is indicated by the story of Sodom where Abraham convinces God not to destroy the ritghteous with the sinners. I tend to favour the idea that forgiveness was already present and God's love unconditional because of the healing of the sick (being an allagory for forgiveness of sin) and Jesus' many teachings of God's love and superiour justice which would seem to be out of place if God resolved to forgive sins after Jesus' death and because of what he experienced during his pilgramage on earth. Of course, my position can be entirely blown out of the water if one were to accept that God exists outside of time (more acurately; time only exists inside of God... as does everything ultimately); which would allow God to learn the lessons of living a human life prior to actually doing it... but then why do it at all other then as a revelation to us.

awesome, thanks

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Originally posted by Blake I recently lost one of my younger brothers to Christianity . I really hope he comes to his senses one of these days, but for now, yeah... . How could something like this have happened in my family!?!!

Blake, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be with your younger brother. What they both have in common is that they have patient love for you.

13 And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do wonderful things with this people,
with wonder upon wonder;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.”

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

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2:45 - 3:20

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Obligatory.

wtf, dude! What IS that!? And why did I have to hear all that shit while stoned?

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Originally posted by Mattsanity. Blake, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be with your younger brother. What they both have in common is that they have patient love for you.

Ugh! You people are fucking sick! I feel no different than if my brother had joined a cult. Same shit, if you ask me.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think that you have somewhat missed the message in the Jesus story. It isn't so much that sins are forgiven because Jesus died; rather, the story of Jesus is a declaration that redemption is available for all. One needs to look beyond the resurection itself to see this. In the times of Jesus Jews believed that illness was punishment for sins or caused by sins against God; this is why there are many stories of Jesus healing the sick... showing the forgiveness of sin. Jesus expresses a clear desire not to be curcified but ultimately defers his desire for Gog's will, which he states is more important than his own; showing that humility is required for redemption. He then gives himself willingly to those that will execute him; further showing deference to God's will and contrition in the face of it. Jesus suffering a terrible death complete with mockery, flogging, and insult is an example of the worst offences that could be commited against God (he is rejected, treated with distain, tortured, and then disposed of in the same manner as those who have commited crimes against men). At the moment of death the release of God from his human form is echoed in the tearing of the curtain that seperated the ark of the covenant from all but the highest of priests in the temple in order to show that God's love is available to all, not just the privileged. This terrible death being followed by Jesus' resurection to tell his followers to go and show the same love he has shown them to all men shows that God's love and forgiveness is not deminished by even the worst offences that man can show him. There is a whole lot of fantastic shit going on here that if nothing else is a beautiful bit of writing to convey the message that God loves all and is willing to forgive all. Jesus' death is not necessary for this as the forgiveness of sins is illustrated prior to his death; thus, the death and resurection is not the mechanism of redemption but an illustration of it. In this sense redemption isn't vicarious; Jesus has not redemed us; rather, God is showing us the magnitude of his love by suffering this terrible death and returning in love despite the indignities suffered. The story of Jesus is meant to show how we may redeem ourselves through humility, contrition, and by the simple act of accepting God's love. Make no mistake we are not forgiven through Jesus... we were forgiven anyway. We are not redeemed through Jesus' death; rather, we redeem ourselves through his life. Christianity does not teach that one needs to be Christian to receive God's love... you get that no matter what. Note; it does teach that living a "Christ-like" life is the best path to true happiness and fulfillment, but not a condition upon which the love of God is contingent. Sorry for the wall of text, which I'm sure is probably ranting and disjointed at times.

That is all theology. I like theology but any debate on this matter has to start at the foundation of: is there any evidence to say there is even a supernatural to begin with? People like to skip that part and move straight to theology. Most likely because there is a great paucity of foundational evidence to support that there is a supernatural, much less this particular brand of a particular religion. Deism is one thing. In fact, I am sure one could come up with a deistic scenario without breaking the laws of physics or even involving the supernatural. However, beware, the more specific it becomes the more improbable.

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Last edited by Trancelover03591 on Apr-06-2012 at 03:52

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Originally posted by EddieZilker 13 And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men, 14 therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.” 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workeverses.rs of lawlessness.’

You nailed it with all of those verses. The first verse is basically calling me out on my claim of being a christian. Did you know that I committed enough sins in the past 24 hours for me to be thrown into hell?
I muttered evil words; looked at a female with lust; and bobbed to a song that promotes superiority over other rappers. I continue to forget that God is the sole reason why I'm even breathing air.

Last edited by Mattsanity. on Apr-06-2012 at 04:14

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Originally posted by Blake wtf, dude! What IS that!? And why did I have to hear all that shit while stoned? Ugh! You people are fucking sick! I feel no different than if my brother had joined a cult. Same shit, if you ask me.

I fully comprehend your just anger. Christians can be major league hypocrites, so the least I can do is pray for you and your brother too.

lol

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Klangkarussell - Sternenkinder

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But the subsequent collision of fools...
Well versed in the subtle art of slavery.

ok I like Live. no reason to take this there.

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Klangkarussell - Sternenkinder

Damn it, Craig, where are you when I'm the one defending Christianity? I could use some help from someone who is actually a Christian

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