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Singularity55
Junior tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Melbourne

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Again, some of those things are valid, some are very loaded and questionable. I doubt any lefty would deny that "hierarchies of competency are desirable", but the whole point is that a rich white Western bloke might be completely blind to the subtle injustices of an oppressive system, so his edict of "Everything is fine, keep it as it is" is not necessarily valid because he has no qualia of the ways the "hierarchy of competence" actually fucks over certain groups and benefits others. This is really basic shit; that kind of point is not "sound" and the discussion should be happening at a higher level of nuance than this.

To be fair though the way in which he explains things is already at a level way higher than the average person is aware of. It's not uni level philosophy. He does oversimplify things and pretend he isn't though.


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Old Post Mar-03-2019 04:48  Australia
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Lira
Be a Good One!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil and Manaus, Brazil

I like where this is going
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
Tenets of a viable 21st century conservatism

1. The fundamental assumptions of Western civilization are valid.

I find it hard to say that the fundamental assumption of Western Civilization is anything but self-doubt - everything else seems to stem from that.

Scepticism? Greek Philosophy and then Western Science both stem from this. This is not to say there aren't strands of scepticism outside the West, but it seems to be something of a cornerstone.

A case can be made that liberal democracies, apart from its obvious debt to Christianity, are also a result of this scepticism, because much of the origin of liberalism developed from a scepticism regarding the relationship between citizens and the government.

As someone who teaches history of Japanese thought, I can confirm that these ideas were so alien to 19th century Japan that they were deemed as a threat. Why? Because they thought a lot like Peterson, funnily enough
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
2. Peaceful social being is preferable to isolation and to war. In consequence, it justly and rightly demands some sacrifice of individual impulse and idiosyncrasy.

Sure, there's been authoritarianism in the West, but as a whole, this is a very non-Western way of thinking. That's a very strange kind of conservatism.

Let's take free will, which can be tied nicely to scepticism because, if you're not absolutely sure you know what is really true, you can't be sure you know how other people ought to behave. Harmony, to the detriment of individual liberty from free will, is one of the tenets of Confucian thought. Harmony is seen as preferable to liberty because, as a matter of fact, "Confucianism lacks a comparable concept, given its assumption that the ethical life of responsibility to others and individual flourishing are inextricably intertwined".

Conservatism in general, means conserving the status quo, and this ain't part of what the West is all about.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
3. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted.

This is where Western scepticism clashes with his view: who's to define who's more competent, and why? What's to keep it from breaking down anyway?

Yes, this idea has been flaunted over and over again in Western philosophy. Plato's aristocracy in the Republic had a "hierarchy of competence" of sorts, with gold souls, silver souls, bronze souls, and iron souls. But even Plato's Socrates acknowledged this would eventually break down over time, and the results wouldn't necessarily be desirable.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
4. Borders are reasonable. Likewise, limits on immigration are reasonable. Furthermore, it should not be assumed that citizens of societies that have not evolved functional individual-rights predicated polities will hold values in keeping with such polities.

This is a tough one.

It's not like limits on immigration have been around for a long time - passports weren't required until WWI, for example. And, yeah, this was partly the West's doing. However, it also goes against Western liberalism.

Back to scepticism. John Rawls's "Veil of Ignorance" argument is a great argument - if you didn't know how and where you would be born, what rules you'd implement so you know you'd have a fair go at life?

You'd hardly say "I'd be bound to my hometown" is a good idea, because you may wind up being born in an undesirable town. Same with countries, where you live dictates how much you earn even in the same job. Would it be fair to let someone live on 1 dollar a day if they could earn way more elsewhere?

As for the strain in host societies, that's too easily overblown. Crime in the UK shows a mixed pattern - immigrants tend to commit fewer crimes, but Eastern Europeans committed more thefts. All the following images have been nicked from the FT, by the way:



Falling wages? Not significant:



There's no compelling argument for limiting immigration that I know of. The Economist offers quite a few arguments for open borders, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
7. It is more noble to teach young people about responsibilities than about rights.

Once again, I don't understand why this fellow thinks he's a conservative.

Ethics (I'm taking "responsibilities" to be "what you ought to do") is a cornerstone of Western thought... And pretty much everywhere else. (Human) Rights are mostly a Western concept, and a pretty important one at that. To emphasise one to the detriment of the other is just weird.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
8. It is better to do what everyone has always done, unless you have some extraordinarily valid reason to do otherwise.

Once again, it's the same problem as the "hierarchy of competence": who's to say the reason is extraordinarily valid?

This also goes against scepticism, which I'm defending as the most important principle of Western thought. Should you keep doing the wrong thing, even if you don't have a good argument against it? As Mill put it, unless you're harming someone as a result, knock yourself off
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
9. Radical change should be viewed with suspicion, particularly in a time of radical change.

This is the first bit of actual conservative thought he has offered. And, it goes along with scepticism, so sounds Western enough to me
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
10. The government, local and distal, should leave people to their own devices as much as possible.

All right, American conservatism here. Scepticism regarding planning and whatnot.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
11. Intact heterosexual two-parent families constitute the necessary bedrock for a stable polity.

My point against #8 applies here too.
quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
12. We should judge our political system in comparison to other actual political systems and not to hypothetical utopias.

If we all acted this way, there would never be a better political system unless a society stumbled haphazardly upon it, would there?


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Old Post Mar-04-2019 01:09  Brazil
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Jon_Snow
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Aug 2012
Location: RIP Mrs Brady

While I donít feel like getting as deep as Lira Iíll add a few of my thoughts.

1. The ďtenetsĒ make more sense if you watch the video. That being said they arenít very well thought out.

2. Iíve always thought of Canada as a smaller version of the USA but listening to his concerns Iím learning itís more socialist than the US. It not to say itís good or bad but has different issues based on that.

3. My general sense is he is mixing facts with his opinion and applying it to the political issues in Canada while suggesting his opinions are built on fundamental scientific truths which I donít think is the case.

4. He is given to hyperbole, wining, and saying ďmanĒ far too often.

I laughed at his story of how when he told his Harvard students that they should use their education for the improvement of society and they exclaimed how they wished someone had told them this before. Iím not laughing at the idea but absurdity that his words of wisdom would elicit that reaction.

The guy is a borderline Tony Robins, man.

Last edited by Jon_Snow on Mar-04-2019 at 19:32

Old Post Mar-04-2019 19:12  United States
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wotyzoid
it's not house



Registered: Apr 2007
Location: New Jersey

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
If we all acted this way, there would never be a better political system unless a society stumbled haphazardly upon it, would there?


I'm glad Lira is here to do my job for me.


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Old Post Mar-04-2019 21:26  United States
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BTG
Ez skinz ez lyfe



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Milton ON

can you guess if my sister likes him?

Old Post Mar-08-2019 09:27  Canada
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LoveHate
...........



Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver

he's a meat lover

Old Post Mar-11-2019 14:36  Canada
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Vector A
Your petrochemical arms



Registered: Apr 2011
Location: U.S.

quote:
Originally posted by BTG
can you guess if my sister likes him?

How many times has she protested his lectures so far?

Old Post Mar-12-2019 18:10  United States
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Lira
Be a Good One!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil and Manaus, Brazil

quote:
Originally posted by Jon_Snow
The ďtenetsĒ make more sense if you watch the video

I won't lie, I kept watching the video hoping there would be some systematic discussion, but I eventually gave up after half an hour or so. Do you remember where in the video he discusses them?


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Old Post Mar-12-2019 18:33  Brazil
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Jon_Snow
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Aug 2012
Location: RIP Mrs Brady

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
I won't lie, I kept watching the video hoping there would be some systematic discussion, but I eventually gave up after half an hour or so. Do you remember where in the video he discusses them?

Lol you made it farther than I did. Near the beginning he said that he came up with the "tenets" the night before and he would say whatever came to mind. I think the title was written to give his talk more gravitas than it deserves.

Maybe you should direct your questions to Del. I have a feeling he is dying to tell you all about his conservative tenets.

Btw, how's your foot doing? I need to replace my worn out Asics Nimbus 17. Why are running shoes so expensive? Just when you fall in love with one model they go and change it.

Last edited by Jon_Snow on Mar-13-2019 at 22:09

Old Post Mar-13-2019 22:00  United States
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