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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit If you consider ideological the shit that comes out of my ass, then i completely agree with you.

My simplified definition of ideology: What society deems as unquestionable, to what there seems to be no alternative.

Like capitalism. You'd be hard pressed to find a more capitalist film than the Transformers movies.

That's why I say these films are strongly ideological - they are a perfect product of the sociopolitical paradigm they were created in.

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Originally posted by Lews Maybe it's worth $12 to you, but it's not to me. The best I can say about Nolan is that his movies are some of the best coming out of Hollywood right now and they are always enjoyable the first time. Well, most of the time. I wanted to fall asleep during Dark Knight. So fucking long. And there are always so many flaws and holes that I discover while re-watching his films, I now no longer watch his movies multiple times. I'd rather spend that $12 on a good cocktail, personally.

we have different opinions on a good cocktail.

___________________
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old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! The film is full of hateful ideology, millions people watch it and a lot of them probably think it's ok/funny/enjoyable. If you don't think it is worthy of a closer look then I don't know what to tell you.

I get where you're coming from but no, I don't think it's worthy of a closer look. I think that much of the same hateful ideology espoused by Transformers is actually endemic in the 'Hollywood Blockbuster' genre. The racial bias you mentioned is a fine example because, at the end of the day, those caricatures sell. I'm sure there's a staggering body of literature on this very topic.

So again, if that interests you -- okay. I respect that. In some ways I can even agree with you, but I hold that these films, films that already offer me so little, are neither more meaningful nor more worthwhile simply by virtue of offering me something negative to chew on. I'll find my ideological sustenance elsewhere, thank you very much.

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! That's why I say these films are strongly ideological - they are a perfect product of the sociopolitical paradigm they were created in.

This is a great point. It clarifies and solidifies your argument.

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! My simplified definition of ideology: What society deems as unquestionable, to what there seems to be no alternative.

well, if we can just make up our own definitions then anything is possible, right?

fucken tryhards

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, if we can just make up our own definitions then anything is possible, right? fucken tryhards

I didn't make up that definition; it is used by Marxists like Žižek pretty often. I just used my own words to simply describe it because I didn't have time to look for some dictionary definition.

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Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights I get where you're coming from but no, I don't think it's worthy of a closer look. I think that much of the same hateful ideology espoused by Transformers is actually endemic in the 'Hollywood Blockbuster' genre. The racial bias you mentioned is a fine example because, at the end of the day, those caricatures sell. I'm sure there's a staggering body of literature on this very topic. So again, if that interests you -- okay. I respect that. In some ways I can even agree with you, but I hold that these films, films that already offer me so little, are neither more meaningful nor more worthwhile simply by virtue of offering me something negative to chew on. I'll find my ideological sustenance elsewhere, thank you very much.

I didn't mean to say that you personally should do some kind of a detailed analysis every time you watch such a film. If you realize it is problematic then it's ok. My response was to those folks in this thread who seemed to actively deny any kind of meaning (subtext) in those films. I don't know if it was trolling or not, but a lot of people really think that and I find it a bit troubling.

I agree that blockbusters in general are full of it; yesterday I saw Avengers and that was a pretty good example of a neoconservative fantasy which justifies use of weapons of mass destruction if it's against The Bad Guys.

I actually don't know how many serious academic studies there are on Transformers, but I think the problem often is that people in academia don't want to engage in this kind of research because to them it appears to be too lowbrow. So this kind of a sentiment when you think that others will surely do the job for you, and therefore you can safely "turn your brain off" is also a bit alibistic and dangerous.

What I'm mostly trying to overcome here is the sentiment that these films are "just entertainment". Nothing is just entertainment. All art is political and your response to it is important.

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Žižek

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Nothing is just entertainment. All art is political and your response to it is important.

I'd love to hear your analysis of Trance Life. Which themes did I use and why? What is the cultural image the text conveys? Does the character of Stu stand for an entire generation of young Australians who are suppressing their homosexuality?

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Last edited by Meat187 on May-04-2012 at 09:35

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! I didn't make up that definition; it is used by Marxists like Žižek pretty often. I just used my own words to simply describe it because I didn't have time to look for some dictionary definition.

marxists use all kinds of words poorly. an ideology is the collection or unification/formulation of an idea(s). it does not describe "What society deems as unquestionable, to what there seems to be no alternative."

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Originally posted by Meat187 Does the character of Stu stand for an entire generation of young Australians who are suppressing their homosexuality?

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! I actually don't know how many serious academic studies there are on Transformers, but I think the problem often is that people in academia don't want to engage in this kind of research because to them it appears to be too lowbrow. So this kind of a sentiment when you think that others will surely do the job for you, and therefore you can safely "turn your brain off" is also a bit alibistic and dangerous. What I'm mostly trying to overcome here is the sentiment that these films are "just entertainment". Nothing is just entertainment. All art is political and your response to it is important.

We actually used Transformers as an example in a Film Studies class I took as a senior called War in Cinema from 1930-Present or something like that, and the professor never even brought up any of the points you're trying to make. The only thing he deemed worthy to expound upon regarding any subtext it may have, is the almost propagandistic nature of the "Go USA, our military can beat anything!" attitude that's prevalent through most of the film. If anything, it's an obvious "GO AMERICA" propaganda machine, and not some cinematic masterpiece full of ideological undertones that one needs to carefully analyze. It essentially slaps you in the face the first time you watch it.

This attitude can be found in almost any war movie made in the US from the past few decades, so when you say that this is one of the most ideological films of the last decade or however long it was you said, you're really making yourself look like a fool.

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Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN marxists use all kinds of words poorly. an ideology is the collection or unification/formulation of an idea(s). it does not describe "What society deems as unquestionable, to what there seems to be no alternative."

Yeah, what I wrote mostly describes how [according to Marxists] ideology functions in today's capitalism, it's not a universal definition of the word. Either way, it's important that these ideas always form a basis of some kind of a system. It just so happens that in this allegedly post-ideological age, the dominant ideas are those that are presented/regarded as indisputable (like the fukuyamaist belief that we have now reached the end of history and that capitalism combined with liberal democracy is the best of the worst possible systems).

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Originally posted by srussell0018 We actually used Transformers as an example in a Film Studies class I took as a senior called War in Cinema from 1930-Present or something like that, and the professor never even brought up any of the points you're trying to make.

Maybe because the class was called War in Cinema from 1930-Present. This doesn't mean that the film doesn't say more about other things.

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This attitude can be found in almost any war movie made in the US from the past few decades, so when you say that this is one of the most ideological films of the last decade or however long it was you said, you're really making yourself look like a fool.

Oh, so just because there are other war films with a similar attitude, it now means that the depiction of the military and the conflict is the same in all of them? What if one is more propagandistic than the other? What if one is subversive (like Starship Troopers)?

Also, I'm not talking about ideology only with regards to war propaganda and the military-industrial complex. Transformers reflect and/or embody many other issues that are prevalent in our society - technofetishism, general infantilization of popular entertainment, commodification of art, objectification of women, racial stereotypization, economic crisis, belief in conspiracy theories, and probably more. And all this is filmed in a very specific way which rejects established norms of continuity storytelling and, as Steven Shaviro says, becomes post-continuity filmmaking.

This doesn't mean Transformers are a masterpiece, I never said that. Here I'm thinking beyond good/bad. They are important films because of what they show, how they show it, and how many people are exposed to them.

Last edited by GoSpeedGo! on May-04-2012 at 18:14

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Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! My response was to those folks in this thread who seemed to actively deny any kind of meaning (subtext) in those films. [...] What I'm mostly trying to overcome here is the sentiment that these films are "just entertainment". Nothing is just entertainment. All art is political and your response to it is important.

This is ridiculous and so not true.
As I said you can some meaning into anything. Doesn't mean it's there. It's created by the audiences response and can be different for different people. Of course there is something to analyze in the creator and in the audience. But it's not immanent to the work.
If many people go to a restaurant to eat shit there (Transformers) one should wonder why they go there and why the restaurant serves that. But the food itself... sometimes a turd is just a turd.
Your definition of art is typical of art fags. It happens when you study something so much that you lose the ability of "knowing where to look". I fundamentally disagree with your view of art but have no interest in debating it because... well I am me and you are Lira 2.0.

___________________

Then stop coloring and visit Meat187's mix archive!

It's hilarious that you say

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Originally posted by Meat187 This is ridiculous and so not true.

and then immediately follow up with this bullshit

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As I said you can some meaning into anything. Doesn't mean it's there. It's created by the audiences response and can be different for different people. Of course there is something to analyze in the creator and in the audience. But it's not immanent to the work.

which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

You're basically saying that films are amorphous Rorschach blots that viewers fill with their own images.

If any meaning can be found anywhere, please tell me how 2001: Space Odyssey responds to third wave feminism. Or how Un Chien Andalou comments on exploitation of workers in Asian factories.

If you really think what you just wrote then you're crazy and I agree that there is no point in discussing anything.