quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Soooo... in other words... one has to abandon rational thought to believe in 9/11 conspiracies? So it's kind of like the Bible, and you just have to have faith that what you believe is real, despite scientific evidence to the contrary?

Uhh, in a way yes. Just take a look at the 19 Arab hijackers theory and the pancake theory. There is no 'scientific evidence' to the contrary. The a world of a difference between evidence, theories, and proofs. You've obviously never taken a logic class in your life or any science class that was a bullshit 101 to say something that absurd.
And to answer your question, no. Rational thought is not the same as 'rationalism.' And there isn't any real (solid) foundation for rationalism in the first place, as it's supposed to be pure deductive reasoning appealing to the 'intellect' alone. If you'd studies fundamental logic and sentential calculus, you should be aware that there is no proof whatsoever for base antecedent of implications. They are merely assupmtions. Plus, there's plenty of ideas that are mere assumptions despite edivent contradictions in reality that sort of invalidate them to begin with. Which is why a rationalist is basically a hypocrite as the very definition of rationalism defies their being and thought process. That's a fairly problematic sole foundation when it's contradicted by bullshit like ethics, morality, and a host of other things considered legitimate, necessary, or true. They're not, in that framework and have virtually no justification whatsoever. Did that help?

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Just let the sheepdogs do their work. It can be fun to watch

Indeed, but most of the time I find it sad or appalling.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Uhh, in a way yes. Just take a look at the 19 Arab hijackers theory and the pancake theory. There is no 'scientific evidence' to the contrary. The a world of a difference between evidence, theories, and proofs. You've obviously never taken a logic class in your life or any science class that was a bullshit 101 to say something that absurd. And to answer your question, no. Rational thought is not the same as 'rationalism.' And there isn't any real (solid) foundation for rationalism in the first place, as it's supposed to be pure deductive reasoning appealing to the 'intellect' alone. If you'd studies fundamental logic and sentential calculus, you should be aware that there is no proof whatsoever for base antecedent of implications. They are merely assupmtions. Plus, there's plenty of ideas that are mere assumptions despite edivent contradictions in reality that sort of invalidate them to begin with. Which is why a rationalist is basically a hypocrite as the very definition of rationalism defies their being and thought process. That's a fairly problematic sole foundation when it's contradicted by bullshit like ethics, morality, and a host of other things considered legitimate, necessary, or true. They're not, in that framework and have virtually no justification whatsoever. Did that help?

No, it hasn't, because you still haven't explained why we are supposed to be more skeptical of accepted fact than of an alternate thesis built upon incomplete information and assumption. If you really wanted to avoid hypocrisy, you would be skeptical of both, and hold the government view and the view of a youtube documentarian to the same standard - provide support that withstands criticism. Obviously you don't think the government has done that. But everybody else's argument hinges upon the fact that conspiracy theorists have failed even more at that basic task. The burden of proof lies on debunkers of accepted fact. So skepticism is a healthy attribute when analyzing their (often unsubstantiated) opinions.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov No, it hasn't, because you still haven't explained why we are supposed to be more skeptical of accepted fact than of an alternate thesis built upon incomplete information and assumption. If you really wanted to avoid hypocrisy, you would be skeptical of both, and hold the government view and the view of a youtube documentarian to the same standard - provide support that withstands criticism. Obviously you don't think the government has done that. But everybody else's argument hinges upon the fact that conspiracy theorists have failed even more at that basic task. The burden of proof lies on debunkers of accepted fact. So skepticism is a healthy attribute when analyzing their (often unsubstantiated) opinions.

There's no "proof" for accepted theories and alternatives, infact there's lots of contraditictions and pure statistically highly improbable "science." Plus, you're once again completely ignoring factoring in information control/management/disinformation from mass media, and it's history of deliberately pushing intel/gov approved disinformation. And you're making the assumption that anyone with an alternative veiw is basing it soley or largely on "youtube videos." Plus, as far as evidence goes, of actuall physicial phenomenon, I'm sorry but the only place you're going to find it in is images and video, other than ofcourse actual controlled experiments. You're also ignoring quite a bit of blatant disinformatin coming from goverment/intel sources that are proved to be false and complete fabrications. If you're so interested in proding this topic, join the thread most of us left ages ago; you know which one I'm refereing to.

Plus, if I wasn't critical of "conspriacy theories," I would be spouting quite a bit of absurd bullshit I've read and heard. There's plenty of bullshit everywhere, and "conspiracy theories" aren't exactly the only "realm" where bullshit exists. It certainly a lot less organized and there's no power structure pushing what you're labelling as "conspiracy theory" or big money behind it. The don't have the tools or resources to manufacture refined disinformation or the power and ability to literally destory evidence, but I guess that's a trivial matter to you.

Plus you just blatenetly demonstrated exactly what I was talking about earlier, not sure if you even realize that by the way.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z A narrow minded indoctrinated individual will never be able to make any of any sense of information that compromises their world veiw.

yes, a narrow minded individual perhaps. im not narrow minded, i am simply after a "macro" explanation or "dot-to-dot" if you will that actually makes sense. the theories create far more problems than they solve (no plane hit the pentagon anyone?)

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z If you're stupid enough to think that the only element that factors in to human beings decision making process is pure rational thought, well, you're pretty fucking naive.

no, but if we are talking about "grand plans" and executions of said plans, then yes, they absolutely must 100% "make sense". why would you execute a master scheme in the worst possible fashion? not everything is rational of course, but stuff like this just has to be.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I have little resspect for most people who call themselves 'rationalists' or think they fit in to that mold, as they're fairly hypocrtical, intellectually and otherwise, not to mention a host of inconsistancies in their world veiw, and ofcourse are probably the most completely ignore other human faculties and cognitive functions. We've had several thread touching upon different aspect of this 'debate' back when it was possible to have one on PDD. Hopefully you gave a genral idea of what I'm talking about because I really don't have the desire or inclination to waste my time diggin up old threads I'm vaguely referring to, for a left brain prisoner that is.

i dont think inconsistencies are a problem tbh. i think everyone has them. and really, i don't have problems with things that are "outside" my world view, as long as the argument/evidence behind it is compelling or convinving. i only today changed my opinion concerning who has the onus of peace in the israeli-palestinian conflict.

BUT, if we're talking about pseudo-science or intellectually dishonest youtube et al. videos then yes, i find it fucking hard to amalgamate that into my "world view" because i find such mediums of presentation inferior to examinations performed by experts. for instance, i am far more likely to listen to you and your opinions concerning, say, the israeli-palestinian conflict than i am latinlover because i am of the belief that you know what you're on about (even if we disagree more often than not!)

again, do you want that operation performed by the doctor or the cleaner?

quote:

There's no "proof" for accepted theories and alternatives, infact there's lots of contraditictions and pure statistically highly improbable "science." Plus, you're once again completely ignoring factoring in information control/management/disinformation from mass media, and it's history of deliberately pushing intel/gov approved disinformation. And you're making the assumption that anyone with an alternative veiw is basing it soley or largely on "youtube videos." Plus, as far as evidence goes, of actuall physicial phenomenon, I'm sorry but the only place you're going to find it in is images and video, other than ofcourse actual controlled experiments. You're also ignoring quite a bit of blatant disinformatin coming from goverment/intel sources that are proved to be false and complete fabrications.

perhaps. but in a situation that lacks a "smoking gun" of evidence, the theories need to be coherent and make sense. which in the case of our favourite terrorist attack, they simply dont.

imo disbelieving everything that government says (and let's be clear, "government" is thousands of employees in both our countries) is just as bad as swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Indeed, but most of the time I find it sad or appalling.

I never said that it wasn't sad. I guess it's kind of like watching a car accident happen except in this case you know that the other person is doing it intentionally and that instead of twisted metal, it's a twisted reality (kind of like something out of 1984, IMO.)

I feel bad for their soul's, if they still have any left.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X I feel bad for their soul's, if they still have any left.

lol, I wish I had the intellectual ego of Trancer-X.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov lol, I wish I had the intellectual ego of Trancer-X.

yeah, its pretty fucking massive! even bigger than my own before i tempered it a bit after getting the odd trouncing in the good ol PDD

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What's funny is that for much of my early life I had to play it dumb so that people didn't give me a hard time in school but when I got older and stopped caring about what people thought, having finally lost a bit of the ego that I once had (and then freely began acting like myself), many of those same small minds came back out of the woodwork to criticize. It goes to show what you two know.

You know what I say? Oh well. You're mostly just a bunch of insecure artifacts, anyway :P Mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X What's funny is that for much of my early life I had to play it dumb so that people didn't give me a hard time in school but when I got older and stopped caring about what people thought, having finally lost a bit of the ego that I once had (and then freely began acting like myself), many of those same small minds came back out of the woodwork to criticize. It goes to show what you two know. You know what I say? Oh well. You're mostly just a bunch of insecure artifacts, anyway :P Mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

thats surprising. i never would've picked you as someone that cared about being obviously smart in front of others.

in highschool i used to get shit, especially from a couple of the "hot" girls in our home class, but didn't their tune change when they needed help with study? hahaha. fuck em.

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So now that abject stupidity has been taken off the pkc list, that leaves me with only either disinfo agent or denial. You're a tough one to figure out, man.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Soooo... in other words... one has to abandon rational thought to believe in 9/11 conspiracies? So it's kind of like the Bible, and you just have to have faith that what you believe is real, despite scientific evidence to the contrary?

Or like the Koran....... would you not say???

actually its people that believe in a great pie in the sky that are the problem...