Originally posted by Renegade
Yeah and that's one of the problems we face in combatting the claims of Christianity and other faiths. I am not familiar with an orthodox religious faith (including the eastern religions, which cannot usually be lumped in so neatly with the Abrahamic religions) that does not see man as being somehow sick, pitiful or debased: a sad pathetic creature who requires the guidance of some supernatural force to make life worthwhile. Neitzsche once said something like "Christianity makes man sick so that it may offer him the cure" and this is what he means. Even in cases where reason triumphs and erodes the supernatural claims of religions, it is rarely capable of touching the root emotional need for such beliefs, which is why whenever you read the accounts of those who have "deconverted" from a given faith, there is almost always a sense of despair or meaninglessness recounted at the end of it (which is sometimes overcome, sometimes not).
But the point is that it wasn't Dawkins who told this boy that a life without god wasn't worth living: that was entirely the doing of the Christians.
personally, i find the concept of a universe without a god just as (if not moreso) amazing than a world with one. its sad that religion has such influence over some people that they feel there is no joy or beauty without god :/
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Dec-05-2008 10:00
LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict
Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
personally, i find the concept of a universe without a god just as (if not moreso) amazing than a world with one. its sad that religion has such influence over some people that they feel there is no joy or beauty without god :/
Obligatory
sorry for the audio at the start, can never find a better copy...
Dec-05-2008 18:05
Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
I believe the universe was programmed like a computer. God is the programmer. Religion merely tries to discover who God is. Organized religion believes they have the answer. Unfortunately, almost all of them disagree or contradict each other. Why? Because we all have different notions of God.
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Dec-05-2008 19:06
Zild
Ten City
Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156
Organized religion is a means of mind control. But don't let anyone know you heard that from me. And yes I still want to be Jesuit priest.
___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102
quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Organized religion is a means of mind control. But don't let anyone know you heard that from me. And yes I still want to be Jesuit priest.
That's true, although secular hedonism is also pretty effective.
___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."-Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller
Dec-05-2008 19:24
Zild
Ten City
Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156
I'm a master of both.
___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.
Originally posted by Renegade
Yeah and that's one of the problems we face in combatting the claims of Christianity and other faiths. I am not familiar with an orthodox religious faith (including the eastern religions, which cannot usually be lumped in so neatly with the Abrahamic religions) that does not see man as being somehow sick, pitiful or debased: a sad pathetic creature who requires the guidance of some supernatural force to make life worthwhile. Neitzsche once said something like "Christianity makes man sick so that it may offer him the cure" and this is what he means. Even in cases where reason triumphs and erodes the supernatural claims of religions, it is rarely capable of touching the root emotional need for such beliefs, which is why whenever you read the accounts of those who have "deconverted" from a given faith, there is almost always a sense of despair or meaninglessness recounted at the end of it (which is sometimes overcome, sometimes not).
But the point is that it wasn't Dawkins who told this boy that a life without god wasn't worth living: that was entirely the doing of the Christians.
I'm sorry but Friedrich Nietzsche (while he does offer an insightful alternative to Theism) often skewed or misunderstood the purpose of Christianity. The old testament focuses on the wickedness of men, while the new testament focuses on a VASTLY more positive idea that negates the original concept of men being fundamentally bad. Mankind is fundamentally good, and I don't see why believing in God is a bad thing if it helps people appreciate the beauty of the world more or helps them answer questions they've had.
Friedrich Nietzsche was a brilliant man but his critique of Christianity is often filled with so much animosity that I find it hard to really appreciate his arguments.
Christianity does not "make man sick then offer the cure". This simply goes against the teachings in the gospels. Nietzsche targeted fundamentalist Christianity, and I think he has every right and reason to, but I don't think many of his attacks would apply to those who practice orthodoxy. IE: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox etc... And especially not since Vatican II!
Dec-05-2008 23:14
Zild
Ten City
Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156
Yeah right you've been brainwashed by the church. And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about I went to private catholic schools my whole life and was pegged at an early age for the priesthood. I still want to be Jesuit, but let me tell you they're lying to you on the surface. It is all about power and control.
Fundamentalists don't matter it is the old world order aka the Vatican and their power that matters.
___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.
Originally posted by Zild
Yeah right you've been brainwashed by the church. And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about I went to private catholic schools my whole life and was pegged at an early age for the priesthood. I still want to be Jesuit, but let me tell you they're lying to you on the surface. It is all about power and control.
Tinfoil hat.
Dec-05-2008 23:20
LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict
Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle
Ignorance is like a brick wall....you try to fight it you'll end up with bloody stumps.
RAther; take it down brick by brick, then you will know the true potential of Man....
there is no spoon.
Dec-06-2008 06:14
Zild
Ten City
Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Tinfoil hat.
Whatever you want to say realize that men like myself have been in the church for power and status since it was organized. That is all out in the open for anyone to see. I'm not talking about conspiracies I'm talking about what is the plain truth. Most people just don't like to accept the truth so they put on blinders.
Most people in the church are there for good reasons and they have the best intentions, but of course the power structure is very corrupt. I do think most priests genuinely believe in the teachings espoused by the Magisterium and from the Pope. I'm not saying all of those people are bad, but what I am saying is that at the core of it there is a giant political machine. Look at the actions done by high ranking members of the Roman Catholic church since its foundation up until the current day and it becomes plainly obvious.
___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.
