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tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Higher Education Bubble in the US
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Lagrangian
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Kilauea, HI
Read This! Higher Education Bubble in the US

http://www.educationnews.org/higher-education-bubble/

quote:
FIFTY years ago, in the glorious age of three-martini lunches and all-smoking offices, Americas car companies were universally admired. Everybody wanted to know the secrets of their success. How did they churn out dazzling new models every year?


http://www.economist.com/node/16941775

The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a worldwide evaluation in OECD member countries (currently there are 65 member nations) of 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance, performed first in 2000 and repeated every three years. It is coordinated by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), with a view to improving educational policies and outcomes. Another similar study is the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, which focuses on mathematics and science but not reading.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment


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Last edited by Lagrangian on Feb-26-2012 at 09:12

Old Post Feb-26-2012 09:03  Samoa
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colonelcrisp
Isn't Batshit Crazy



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Ottawa

you will find that in order to get people to discuss a topic in here, its best to post your own thoughts about an issue (citing relevant sources as necessary).

That being said, the bubble has been popped for a while..... Every year the colleges and universities graduate thousands of students with undeclared arts degrees or highly specialized degrees with no job market attached to them. i think post secondary education is extremely important but it is not the place to send your kids to figure out what they want to do with their lives.... figure out what you want to do and then go to college for it. Unless you like to waste money. If you have to go 80 grand in debt to get a job that pays 30k a year you have either chosen a career path with far to many people looking for far to few positions OR you were really really horrible at math as a kid...


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quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yeah, Id like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Old Post Feb-27-2012 20:09  Canada
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Lira
Put on robe & wizard hat!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil Formerly known as: Maaz

Actually, I don't think that's quite the problem. I don't think turning universities into "job market schools" is a good idea: sure, at least some of the courses should get students prepared for the challenges posed by the job market. However, focusing solely on future employment might in the end stifle the development of new ideas - which could ironically be useful for the market at a later stage.

You often hear loads of professors on the humanities pointing out these problems.


___________________
quote:
Originally said by Adolf Fleisch Hitler
How naive can people be? Curing the COR with messy hair and philosophy?

quote:
Originally said by Maurice Moss
I came here to kick ass and drink milk... and I've just finished my milk

Old Post Feb-27-2012 21:26 
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colonelcrisp
Isn't Batshit Crazy



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Ottawa

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
Actually, I don't think that's quite the problem. I don't think turning universities into "job market schools" is a good idea: sure, at least some of the courses should get students prepared for the challenges posed by the job market. However, focusing solely on future employment might in the end stifle the development of new ideas - which could ironically be useful for the market at a later stage.

You often hear loads of professors on the humanities pointing out these problems.



While i agree with your argument, part of this problem is that they put the same value on a liberal arts degree or a sociology degree as they would a pre-med, business or engineering degree.

Ill admit bias as i went to school for a professional degree, but if tuition is seen as a major barrier to higher education, why not link the tuition amount (or degree cost if you will) to some kind of industry metric for an average starting salary of a job in that field. For example, if you want to become a social worker and the average social worker in america starts at 30k per year, cap the tuition for that program such that 4 years of tuition would only cost 1/3 of the expected starting salary. If you have a person graduating into a career that is only going to pay 30k per year and they are servicing 35k in debt, it will be 20 years before they pay that off. I have buddies that graduated in engineering that are servicing 50k+ in student debt and thats in Canada where our tuition is significantly cheaper than the US.

Im not bashing non engineering degrees, i think there is value in all courses of study (except womens studies, thats what cooking school is for) but i think that the tuition shoudl be scaled according to the field of study as they are not all created equal when it comes to compensation


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yeah, Id like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Old Post Feb-27-2012 21:47  Canada
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Lira
Put on robe & wizard hat!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil Formerly known as: Maaz

quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
While i agree with your argument, part of this problem is that they put the same value on a liberal arts degree or a sociology degree as they would a pre-med, business or engineering degree.

Don't these courses cost more? Maybe I'm a naive outsider because even in private institutions these degrees are cheaper where I live.

Maybe one of the differences here is because I didn't have to pay any fees - the best higher education in Brazil is public (and it's not that bad). Whereas we've got different kinds of problems, such as recurrent strikes, I can't understand why North American countries don't invest more on something that clearly beneficial for the economy. Taxpayers would obviously spend more on, let's say, biotechnology than philosophy, specially because whereas biotechnicians need labs and books and whatnot, the philosophy department doesn't need as much investment.
quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
Im not bashing non engineering degrees, i think there is value in all courses of study (except womens studies, thats what cooking school is for)


___________________
quote:
Originally said by Adolf Fleisch Hitler
How naive can people be? Curing the COR with messy hair and philosophy?

quote:
Originally said by Maurice Moss
I came here to kick ass and drink milk... and I've just finished my milk

Old Post Feb-28-2012 03:48 
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colonelcrisp
Isn't Batshit Crazy



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Ottawa

at my alma matter, for example, a general undeclared arts degree for a domestic student (from canada) is around $6300.oo per year and an engineering degree is around $9000.00 per year. the majority of that cost difference is that the engineering programs cost way more to administer (cutting edge lab space requirements and specialized buildings) My uni has one of the best structures labs in north america (full scale building structure testing) a class IV microprocessor manufacturing facility, a subsonic wind tunnel, cluster computing lab and a full manufacturing facility (metal, wood and machine shops as well as an advanced composites lab).

But while the tuition is 2700 dollars more for engineering, the expected starting salary is way higher than that of an arts degree. when you tack on the cost of living onto the tuition, you are looking at almost 20k per year. if you graduate with 36k in debt and you are only making 30k a year when you graduate, its going to take you a long long time to pay it off.

I was servicing almost 40 grand when i graduated.... i now owe 1800 and i have been out of school for 5 years.

I guess my point is that if all the specialized equipment and lab space that i needed for my degree only cost 2700 more per year, the departments that only required lecture space arent running very efficiently or they are charging way too much tuition.


FYI international fees are 21,000.00 for engineering and 17,800 for arts....

UNREAL!


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yeah, Id like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Old Post Feb-28-2012 17:02  Canada
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Lira
Put on robe & wizard hat!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil Formerly known as: Maaz

quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
I guess my point is that if all the specialized equipment and lab space that i needed for my degree only cost 2700 more per year, the departments that only required lecture space arent running very efficiently or they are charging way too much tuition.

Based on what you're saying, I wholeheartedly agree.
quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
FYI international fees are 21,000.00 for engineering and 17,800 for arts....

UNREAL!

Bloody hell!!!


___________________
quote:
Originally said by Adolf Fleisch Hitler
How naive can people be? Curing the COR with messy hair and philosophy?

quote:
Originally said by Maurice Moss
I came here to kick ass and drink milk... and I've just finished my milk

Old Post Feb-29-2012 01:25 
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AnotherWay83
The B00b Maintenance Guy



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

if you think abt it, it actually works out in favor of corporations. they just hire peeps from abroad that have a master's or PhD (from countries where education is very cheap or highly subsidized), and pay them shit wages because they're on a visa, and also work them really hard by dangling the green card carrot.

why would you pay a local person with just a bachelor's the same as someone that has a master's (or in some cases, multiple master's degrees) and is willing to be your wage slave? at the same time they get to cry "oh, there's not enough qualified candidates so we need to increase the visa quotas or offshore our work". well yeah no shit. getting an education is a very, very expensive proposition in this country...

Old Post Feb-29-2012 01:39 
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colonelcrisp
Isn't Batshit Crazy



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Ottawa

quote:
Originally posted by AnotherWay83
if you think abt it, it actually works out in favor of corporations. they just hire peeps from abroad that have a master's or PhD (from countries where education is very cheap or highly subsidized), and pay them shit wages because they're on a visa, and also work them really hard by dangling the green card carrot.

why would you pay a local person with just a bachelor's the same as someone that has a master's (or in some cases, multiple master's degrees) and is willing to be your wage slave? at the same time they get to cry "oh, there's not enough qualified candidates so we need to increase the visa quotas or offshore our work". well yeah no shit. getting an education is a very, very expensive proposition in this country...


While i somewhat agree with what you are saying, a bigger problem is the obsolescence of many college/university degrees today. apart from specialized programs, most uni degrees don't transfer well to industry. I know a lot of people in ottawa who are working for the federal government in "administrative support" positions (glorified secretary) who have a BA from a well reputed university. They constantly complain about their low wage (even though they have the best pension and benefit package in canada) because they feel they should be making 80 grand a year due to their degree.

Unless your degree adds value to your work, ie gives you special skills or abilities to do your job better or more efficiently, you are not going to see a landslide salary increase. Far too many people these days graduate university and feel that they are somehow "owed" a job, and a well paying one at that. Im not sure where this mentality came from but the way i see it, you are just another player in the job market and that piece of paper you just spent 100k on is just proof that you have some skills or training that make you a bit better than someone else.

back to the foreign trained employee issue, more often than not (in my industry anyways) we hire these people because they are highly trained and we can get them super cheap, not because their education cost any less where they were from, but because they cannot be licensed to practice engineering in Canada for a myriad of reasons. Engineer's get paid what they do because they assume all responsibility and liability for their work (when i put my seal on a drawing, im legally liable for defects or errors and omissions). Since the unlicensed cannot assume the risk, they don't get paid anywhere close to the same rate. I have a couple foreign trained people on staff who do a lot of great technical work for me but since they don't qualify for licensure (many of them would have to go back and get a degree from a Canadian university to qualify) they will remain at the technician pay grade.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yeah, Id like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Old Post Feb-29-2012 15:30  Canada
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pass
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Mar 2012
Location: usa

I don't think that's quite the problem too.

Old Post Mar-08-2012 12:59  Algeria
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