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Mattsanity.
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I for one am a bit pissed off that there arenít more Christian myths in todayís society. I mean, why couldnít jesus have died and come back another dozen times? I could really use the days off.

jesus. selfish bastard.


Jesus died once because since he was God in the flesh, that means he was also man. He was 100% God and 100% man, so he died once just like every person. His sacrifice 2000 years ago is still the most powerful expression of love.

Old Post Apr-05-2012 12:12  South Korea
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Mattsanity.
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
This is a brave thread to post in the c0r ... props


I take none of the credit though. Christians are suppose to be selfless, and if ex-christians have a tainted view on christians, I hope God can use me to be instrumental.

Old Post Apr-05-2012 12:23  South Korea
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Moral Hazard
Oppressing the 99%



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: with the 1%

quote:
Originally posted by Intellekshual
Vicarious redemption is highly immoral, it's Scapegoating - an ancient, primitive practice from the Middle East that doesn't deserve the attention of anyone capable of thinking.


I think that you have somewhat missed the message in the Jesus story. It isn't so much that sins are forgiven because Jesus died; rather, the story of Jesus is a declaration that redemption is available for all. One needs to look beyond the resurection itself to see this. In the times of Jesus Jews believed that illness was punishment for sins or caused by sins against God; this is why there are many stories of Jesus healing the sick... showing the forgiveness of sin. Jesus expresses a clear desire not to be curcified but ultimately defers his desire for Gog's will, which he states is more important than his own; showing that humility is required for redemption. He then gives himself willingly to those that will execute him; further showing deference to God's will and contrition in the face of it. Jesus suffering a terrible death complete with mockery, flogging, and insult is an example of the worst offences that could be commited against God (he is rejected, treated with distain, tortured, and then disposed of in the same manner as those who have commited crimes against men). At the moment of death the release of God from his human form is echoed in the tearing of the curtain that seperated the ark of the covenant from all but the highest of priests in the temple in order to show that God's love is available to all, not just the privileged. This terrible death being followed by Jesus' resurection to tell his followers to go and show the same love he has shown them to all men shows that God's love and forgiveness is not deminished by even the worst offences that man can show him.

There is a whole lot of fantastic shit going on here that if nothing else is a beautiful bit of writing to convey the message that God loves all and is willing to forgive all. Jesus' death is not necessary for this as the forgiveness of sins is illustrated prior to his death; thus, the death and resurection is not the mechanism of redemption but an illustration of it. In this sense redemption isn't vicarious; Jesus has not redemed us; rather, God is showing us the magnitude of his love by suffering this terrible death and returning in love despite the indignities suffered. The story of Jesus is meant to show how we may redeem ourselves through humility, contrition, and by the simple act of accepting God's love. Make no mistake we are not forgiven through Jesus... we were forgiven anyway. We are not redeemed through Jesus' death; rather, we redeem ourselves through his life. Christianity does not teach that one needs to be Christian to receive God's love... you get that no matter what. Note; it does teach that living a "Christ-like" life is the best path to true happiness and fulfillment, but not a condition upon which the love of God is contingent.

Sorry for the wall of text, which I'm sure is probably ranting and disjointed at times.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by RickyM
you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Old Post Apr-05-2012 12:25  Canada
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Ted Promo
NWO WOLFPACK INSANE



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Can this be my goal??!

Mattsanity, if god were truly all powerful why did he make your kind squint permanently?


___________________

Old Post Apr-05-2012 12:27 
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Swamper
Webmonstah



Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Ted Promo
Mattsanity, if god were truly all powerful why did he make your kind squint permanently?



___________________

"In a world of illusion you only see what you feel"

Old Post Apr-05-2012 13:07  Canada
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

always a pleasure to hear from you on this topic craig

you wrote something a while back about god experiencing the temptations of man through jesus, and having experienced life as a man he was willing to forgive us our sins. or something like that. another post on that topic would be great

Old Post Apr-05-2012 14:27  Australia
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Desiderata
addiction of duplicities



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: San Antonio,Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I think that you have somewhat missed the message in the Jesus story. It isn't so much that sins are forgiven because Jesus died; rather, the story of Jesus is a declaration that redemption is available for all. One needs to look beyond the resurection itself to see this. In the times of Jesus Jews believed that illness was punishment for sins or caused by sins against God; this is why there are many stories of Jesus healing the sick... showing the forgiveness of sin. Jesus expresses a clear desire not to be curcified but ultimately defers his desire for Gog's will, which he states is more important than his own; showing that humility is required for redemption. He then gives himself willingly to those that will execute him; further showing deference to God's will and contrition in the face of it. Jesus suffering a terrible death complete with mockery, flogging, and insult is an example of the worst offences that could be commited against God (he is rejected, treated with distain, tortured, and then disposed of in the same manner as those who have commited crimes against men). At the moment of death the release of God from his human form is echoed in the tearing of the curtain that seperated the ark of the covenant from all but the highest of priests in the temple in order to show that God's love is available to all, not just the privileged. This terrible death being followed by Jesus' resurection to tell his followers to go and show the same love he has shown them to all men shows that God's love and forgiveness is not deminished by even the worst offences that man can show him.

There is a whole lot of fantastic shit going on here that if nothing else is a beautiful bit of writing to convey the message that God loves all and is willing to forgive all. Jesus' death is not necessary for this as the forgiveness of sins is illustrated prior to his death; thus, the death and resurection is not the mechanism of redemption but an illustration of it. In this sense redemption isn't vicarious; Jesus has not redemed us; rather, God is showing us the magnitude of his love by suffering this terrible death and returning in love despite the indignities suffered. The story of Jesus is meant to show how we may redeem ourselves through humility, contrition, and by the simple act of accepting God's love. Make no mistake we are not forgiven through Jesus... we were forgiven anyway. We are not redeemed through Jesus' death; rather, we redeem ourselves through his life. Christianity does not teach that one needs to be Christian to receive God's love... you get that no matter what. Note; it does teach that living a "Christ-like" life is the best path to true happiness and fulfillment, but not a condition upon which the love of God is contingent.

Sorry for the wall of text, which I'm sure is probably ranting and disjointed at times.


Not for me, You are the only (I assume) Religious person I don't mind reading their Wall O' Texts


___________________

A girl doesn't get killed by a make believe lover.

Old Post Apr-05-2012 14:31  United States
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Halcyon+On+On
Liebchen



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: midcoast

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
The story of Jesus is meant to show how we may redeem ourselves through humility, contrition, and by the simple act of accepting God's love. Make no mistake we are not forgiven through Jesus... we were forgiven anyway. We are not redeemed through Jesus' death; rather, we redeem ourselves through his life. Christianity does not teach that one needs to be Christian to receive God's love... you get that no matter what.


Yet still, the fundamental presumption is that we are imperfect; for forgiveness to even be on the table is rather an insult to spiritual life, as it assumes we can commit any wrong at all, rather than merely being the creatures that we are, unburdened by the shame of dirt eaters who could not even fathom things like interstellar travel or nuclear weaponry.

Christianity exemplifies the responsibility of individuals to God, but has absolutely no value of our species' responsibility to the planet, to our physical proliferation and the dissolution of civic-oriented intolerance and injustice. It has no concern for anything beyond some gaslighting scaffolding of selfish appeals to imaginary transgressions, and its own survival has hinged on this fundamental conceit for far longer than its attributable logic could possibly sustain.


___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Old Post Apr-05-2012 14:32 
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Halcyon+On+On
Liebchen



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: midcoast

quote:
Originally posted by RJT
Back when I was your age, this thread might have been to four, or even five pages by now! Gee-wilickers!


I found some gems from aeons past:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=1#.T32wuNVXKZQ

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=1#.T32wA9VXKZQ

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=2#.T32vaNVXKZS

//This is also a really good one:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=1#.T32-eNVXKZQ


___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Last edited by Halcyon+On+On on Apr-05-2012 at 15:47

Old Post Apr-05-2012 14:49 
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Moral Hazard
Oppressing the 99%



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: with the 1%

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
always a pleasure to hear from you on this topic craig

you wrote something a while back about god experiencing the temptations of man through jesus, and having experienced life as a man he was willing to forgive us our sins. or something like that. another post on that topic would be great


Certainly, that is the view of some and certainly one very valid way to interpret the Jesus story. That view holds that God chose to live a life as man in order to experience being human. To have a fully human life, so that he may know man, and experience life as one of us, love as one of us, serve us as one of us, worship as one of us, struggle as one of us, suffer as one of us, and die as one of us. Certainly, I believe that is true as well (incidently this is part of why I believe it is unreasonable to believe Jesus was not married). Now, there is a divergance as to whether this was necessary for God to forgive sins or if forgiveness of sins was already present and this was necessary to exhibit that love and forgiveness to man. If either is true (of course presuposing that any of it is true) I would suspect the latter as the former would necessitate that God's love was conditional before and only made absolute through his life as Jesus. Certainly, there is much in the old testament that would support this; even the idea that man has lessons to teach God, as is indicated by the story of Sodom where Abraham convinces God not to destroy the ritghteous with the sinners. I tend to favour the idea that forgiveness was already present and God's love unconditional because of the healing of the sick (being an allagory for forgiveness of sin) and Jesus' many teachings of God's love and superiour justice which would seem to be out of place if God resolved to forgive sins after Jesus' death and because of what he experienced during his pilgramage on earth. Of course, my position can be entirely blown out of the water if one were to accept that God exists outside of time (more acurately; time only exists inside of God... as does everything ultimately); which would allow God to learn the lessons of living a human life prior to actually doing it... but then why do it at all other then as a revelation to us.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by RickyM
you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Old Post Apr-05-2012 14:50  Canada
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Halcyon+On+On
Liebchen



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: midcoast

That is a very nice sentiment. But it fucking figures that God chose to live human life in full Hippy-Wizard mode. Fucking cheater, if you ask me!

//Although now that I think about Hippy Wizards, I kind of think that maybe pkc is leading a Christ-like life. Awwww!


___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Last edited by Halcyon+On+On on Apr-05-2012 at 15:07

Old Post Apr-05-2012 15:01 
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Moral Hazard
Oppressing the 99%



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: with the 1%

quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Yet still, the fundamental presumption is that we are imperfect; for forgiveness to even be on the table is rather an insult to spiritual life, as it assumes we can commit any wrong at all, rather than merely being the creatures that we are, unburdened by the shame of dirt eaters who could not even fathom things like interstellar travel or nuclear weaponry.

Christianity exemplifies the responsibility of individuals to God, but has absolutely no value of our species' responsibility to the planet, to our physical proliferation and the dissolution of civic-oriented intolerance and injustice. It has no concern for anything beyond some gaslighting scaffolding of selfish appeals to imaginary transgressions, and its own survival has hinged on this fundamental conceit for far longer than its attributable logic could possibly sustain.


I know you're just playing here but what the hell...

Indeed, Christianity pesuposes that humans are imperfect, which I would have to support. Do you honestly believe that we all act in the very best way we can at all times? We always do the right thing? We always do the best thing? Of course we're imperfect, perfection is beyond our grasp. Christianity holds that God is tolerant of our imperfections, as we should be of everyone elses.

Christianity is not about the individuals responsibility to God; rather, it is about our responsibility to each other. Granted, there is all sorts of talk about service to God; however, that service all takes the form of service to man. The Great Mandate of Jesus to his followers is to love and serve all men as he did to them... interestingly enough this very mandate is the focus of today's celebrations in catholic churches all over the world with the washing of the feet. Without question, if we were all to live a "Christ-like" life in service to humanity there would be great benefit to our species and the planet as a whole with justice and equality for all.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by RickyM
you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Old Post Apr-05-2012 15:09  Canada
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