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Originally posted by ziptnf As far as the topic is concerned, this isn't a matter of race, this is a matter of the Republicans refusing to compromise on any health care bill.

How easily we believe those Democrat talking points. That would be an interesting statement if:

1) The Republican plan that was offered 6 months ago would have been considered. http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/G...ain;contentBody

2) The Republicans had actually been invited to meetings on health care to offer more ideas. THey have not been invited to contribute since APRIL.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...lks-since-april

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So Joe Wilson made an ass out of himself for no reason. Wouldn't be the first time a Republican did that.

Did you not read the Congressional Research Service report article? It explains very plainly how easy it is to get around things... how illegals in fact can participate in most of the critical aspects of the government health system including the health care exchanges.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...--55021087.html

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They will oppose Obama and the Democrats at any cost, even if it means humiliating themselves in front of the entire country.

Flashback: Bush's 2005 State Of The Union speech where he was getting boos from Democrats in the audience while speaking. Guess it was ok then.



Shit... even Media Matters has a compilation on news reports from Koppel, Scarborough, John Roberts, Bob Barr, etc. explaining how it was "unprecdented"---> http://mediamatters.org/research/200502040014

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Originally posted by The17sss Did you not read the Congressional Research Service report article? It explains very plainly how easy it is to get around things... how illegals in fact can participate in most of the critical aspects of the government health system including the health care exchanges. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...--55021087.html

And yet still illegal immigrants won't qualify for federal subsidies or programs that grant insurance. You do realize that this is EXACTLY as it stands today, yes? They can "get around things" by getting insurance coverage from their employer? Great, they can do that today too. But they won't receive federal subsidies for it - also EXACTLY as it stands today.

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Flashback: Bush's 2005 State Of The Union speech where he was getting boos from Democrats in the audience while speaking. Guess it was ok then.

No. It was childish and wrong then too. Jesus H. Christ on a bike, you're such a partisan apologist.

Re: Re: Re: Humiliating Obama

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov It really doesn't take much to provoke a rant from you, does it? One person in a thread speculates about race and four people say it isn't a factor and you throw a tizzy about how the "Left" only has a race card and nothing else to play? You seriously need to take a deep breath sometimes.

I didn't say the race card is all they have... I said it's their go-to move when they aren't getting their way or find themselves in a tight spot now more than ever. You are correct though- I do need to take a breath sometimes. It's just that this race card bullshit infuriates me more than anything. It's going to bite them in the ass though, because the general population in this country, IMO, are good people and are getting sick of hearing that bullshit.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov And yet still illegal immigrants won't qualify for federal subsidies or programs that grant insurance. You do realize that this is EXACTLY as it stands today, yes? They can "get around things" by getting insurance coverage from their employer? Great, they can do that today too. But they won't receive federal subsidies for it - also EXACTLY as it stands today.

Am I missing something? The CRS states the following: H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens�whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently�participating in the Exchange

It will be interesting to see how long the exclusion of illegal aliens from getting the "individual affordability credits" lasts, since as the CRS notes, illegal aliens are subject to the health care mandate. Can't you see the argument coming that if the House bill requires illegals to have qualified health insurance, some accomodation needs to be made for those who can't afford it?

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No. It was childish and wrong then too. Jesus H. Christ on a bike, you're such a partisan apologist.

LOL look who's talking! When are you ever critical of your Lord and Savior in the white house? I'm just pointing out the hypocricy man... Ziptnf appears to be outrageously outraged at such horrible GOP behavior. The memory is short on that guy.

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Originally posted by The17sss Ziptnf appears to be outrageously outraged at such horrible GOP behavior. The memory is short on that guy.

I mean, you're going to tell me that WASN'T outrageous behavior? I don't have the best memory in the world, and I'm not going to make excuses for the Democrats booing Bush, I don't think that's very professional either. I also don't really care for the Democrats hooping and hollering and taunting at the Republicans all the time. Honestly, the applause interruptions are kinda stupid anyways, I don't need the House and Senate to tell me what to approve of.

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Originally posted by ziptnf I mean, you're going to tell me that WASN'T outrageous behavior? I don't have the best memory in the world, and I'm not going to make excuses for the Democrats booing Bush, I don't think that's very professional either. I also don't really care for the Democrats hooping and hollering and taunting at the Republicans all the time. Honestly, the applause interruptions are kinda stupid anyways, I don't need the House and Senate to tell me what to approve of.

not at all man... my first post in this thread started out by saying that SC idiot was, well, an idiot and I absolutely don't condone that disrespectful cat-calling. I also don't like the applause moments after every sentence, while the camera pans the crowd showing judgemental looks on faces. So stupid.

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Originally posted by The17sss not at all man... my first post in this thread started out by saying that SC idiot was, well, an idiot and I absolutely don't condone that disrespectful cat-calling. I also don't like the applause moments after every sentence, while the camera pans the crowd showing judgemental looks on faces. So stupid.

Yes.

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Originally posted by The17sss Am I missing something? The CRS states the following: H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens�whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently�participating in the Exchange

The Exchange, yes. Which is the forum in which insurance can be purchased. Doesn't involve government activity or subsidization.

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It will be interesting to see how long the exclusion of illegal aliens from getting the "individual affordability credits" lasts, since as the CRS notes, illegal aliens are subject to the health care mandate. Can't you see the argument coming that if the House bill requires illegals to have qualified health insurance, some accomodation needs to be made for those who can't afford it?

Not really, but if that kind of provision arises, you're welcome to oppose it.

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LOL look who's talking! When are you ever critical of your Lord and Savior in the white house? I'm just pointing out the hypocricy man...

All the time, including today in the thread on vetting and yesterday in the thread on health care messaging. You don't pay attention because I'm "on Obama's side" in your mind.

And he may be a Lord and Savior to you, but to me he's just the President we elected to serve the people.

Obama needs to officially give them the finger and pass his healthcare plan sans any attempt at bipartisanship.

Same goes for the rest of his agenda. Fuck em.

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Originally posted by Clovis Obama needs to officially give them the finger and pass his healthcare plan sans any attempt at bipartisanship. Same goes for the rest of his agenda. Fuck em.

that's kinda what's happening man. 52% of Americans now oppose the House's health care plan, and he's down with going against the will of the people. It's not like I didn't expect that to happen, but he ran as a centrist with bipartisan spirit in mind.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov The Exchange, yes. Which is the forum in which insurance can be purchased. Doesn't involve government activity or subsidization.

It won't matter when the public option destroys private insurance, as was his stated goal in 2003 and 2007. By default, the government plan will be all there is if he gets his wish and the illegals will get their free shit. Or, we can just wait for him to try and force amnesty which we know is coming, and then suddenly they won't be so illegal anymore.

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Originally posted by The17sss It won't matter when the public option destroys private insurance, as was his stated goal in 2003 and 2007. By default, the government plan will be all there is if he gets his wish and the illegals will get their free shit. Or, we can just wait for him to try and force amnesty which we know is coming, and then suddenly they won't be so illegal anymore.

The public option is going to be a rather exclusive club, I highly doubt that people who already have health insurance can just drop their current plan and get covered for free by the government. I'm pretty sure you're going to have to be approved for a Federal Health Tax Credit. I hate that fucking argument, too many people think that the public option is going to take over all the private insurance companies. That's not at all what it's purpose is, wtf!

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Originally posted by The17sss It won't matter when the public option destroys private insurance,

Ridiculous. You know as well as I that progressives are just as vocally pissed at the Administration as conservatives are - the bill is extraordinarily, failingly moderate.

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Originally posted by The17sss that's kinda what's happening man. 52% of Americans now oppose the House's health care plan, and he's down with going against the will of the people. It's not like I didn't expect that to happen, but he ran as a centrist with bipartisan spirit in mind.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

The biggest threat to the current bill in the House is the progressive caucus. To play the President off as radically liberal on this one is just to not have your facts anywhere near correct. This bill is moderate to a fault, and he's losing the support of both extremes as a result.

Furthermore, your numbers are way off - 10-12 million uninsured illegals? Try 6-7 at max. There are a total of 11.9 million illegals in this country, of which roughly 50% are currently insured through their employer. What you're complaining about is that those currently insured won't have their coverage dropped by their privately-insured employers. Let's just be clear on that. The federal government does not, and will not, be subsidizing costs or providing insurance for the 6 million currently uninsured illegals.

If you have proof that suggests otherwise, feel free to post it. But so far we have false numbers and a tenuous slippery slope argument that the bill (and implicitly the status quo?) will lead to subsequent legislation that leads to universal public coverage for people the bill explicitly states won't be covered by the public.

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Originally posted by The17sss that's kinda what's happening man. 52% of Americans now oppose the House's health care plan, and he's down with going against the will of the people. It's not like I didn't expect that to happen, but he ran as a centrist with bipartisan spirit in mind.

No that is not what is happening.

52% of Americans oppose the healthcare plan because the GOP has misled a sizable chunk of the country into thinking that increasing and reforming access to healthcare in this country is worse than rape.

Of that 52% I'll bet less than half have legitimate, reasonable and well educated concerns with the plan (which I acknowledge there are). The rest have been scared into submission to the idea that we will become a communist country overnight, bureaucrats are going to pull the plug on grandma, illegal aliens will be given another free ride, and free markets will be thing of the past (even though they already are).

Next stop...gulags

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

Too many Americans can't make up their fucking minds. While this is good news, it also points out how half of Bill Clinton's supporters bailed on him a few weeks after his poll numbers spiked.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

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The sample of speech-watchers in this poll was 45 percent Democratic and 18 percent Republican.

Nice try. From the AP: Obamacare disapproval at 52%:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...MuMZ1gD9AJST3O0


Rassmussen: 53% oppose Obamacare, 44% approve
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._plan_53_oppose

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To play the President off as radically liberal on this one is just to not have your facts anywhere near correct.

That statement could be even funnier than your CNN spin poll. The man with the most liberal voting record in the Senate is a moderate. Right! And I have some ocean front real estate I'd like to sell you.

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Furthermore, your numbers are way off - 10-12 million uninsured illegals? Try 6-7 at max. There are a total of 11.9 million illegals in this country, of which roughly 50% are currently insured through their employer.

And what makes you think YOU have the numbers correct? Obama himself has said 12-20 million, which seems to be the number everyone uses... but they don't really know. How do you also explain the number in his speech dropping from 47 to 30 million amid the "illegal immigrants" arguments?

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What you're complaining about is that those currently insured won't have their coverage dropped by their privately-insured employers. Let's just be clear on that. The federal government does not, and will not, be subsidizing costs or providing insurance for the 6 million currently uninsured illegals.

You're even talking like him now. "Let me be clear". What makes you so sure that you're right about the above statement?

quote:

Ridiculous.

You keep asking people if they've read the bill. Well now I'm asking you. Page 16 of the bill has a provision that makes private insurance illegal. Sure you can keep your plan that you like... until it expires, or the premium changes, or you change any form of coverage at any point. Then it will be impossible to get private insurance any longer. Read here--> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...332548165656854

Why is this a surprise? Obama is on video speaking to the SEIU and AFL-CIO in 2003 and 2007 specifically saying he is a proponant of a single payer system, it's what he wants, it's what he will fight to get. Barney Frank has said on video that the public option will lead to it. Several other Democrats have as well. I have all the links to them saying as much. I've posted them before, and yet you ignore them or pretend like they never happened/don't matter. You're drinking in the Orwellian juice like crazy!


Edit: you should read this article by Duke University professor John David Lewis, as he breaks down a lot of the controversial questions into plain English for the layperson. Eye opening. Oh, and what's your take on HR 3200 forcing people to pay a $3800 fine if they don't buy insurance? That's what a moderate who believes in freedom of choice would do, right?

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/...l-actually-says

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis No that is not what is happening. 52% of Americans oppose the healthcare plan because the GOP has misled a sizable chunk of the country into thinking that increasing and reforming access to healthcare in this country is worse than rape. Of that 52% I'll bet less than half have legitimate, reasonable and well educated concerns with the plan (which I acknowledge there are). The rest have been scared into submission to the idea that we will become a communist country overnight, bureaucrats are going to pull the plug on grandma, illegal aliens will be given another free ride, and free markets will be thing of the past (even though they already are). Next stop...gulags

That's some pretty hardcore conspiracy thinking. What has happened is that pieces of the bill have come to light, and the alternative to the mainstream media are showing people some facts that they were not aware of. Sure there is some disinformation out there... ON BOTH SIDES. But for the most part, people are smart enough to figure things out for themselves when given the time to have over 1000 pages explored. You seem to just want to let anything Obama wants pass right through with no debate, as quickly as possible. Democrats weren't even reading the bill by their own admission! That's not how it should work before voting on massive legislation.

Let me ask you this: if our healthcare system is so broken, and private insurance is so bad, why is he telling people if they like it, they can keep it?

And, what was the rush to jam it through in 2 weeks when he first tried? It isn't supposed to go into effect until March 2013... right after the 2012 presidential election. That's fucking fishy as hell dude. If we're really on the brink of catastrophe with the healthcare system, why not enact it ASAP once it passes?

I for one am shocked they haven't passed some form of universal healthcare yet. Why is Obama f*cking around? He should have done this his first month in office. With overwhelming approval and a huge majority in both houses, he could have had it.. Now we've had all these scandals and doubts spreading across the country, the opposition has been mobilized, we've discovered that the debt will be $2 trillion more than Obama anticipated, and now this news about Acorn throwing further doubt on the wisdom of people in government (who were throwing hundreds of millions at them in stimulus payments, etc.) It's frakking doomed now. Too bad lefties. You had your shot at a real socialist dream for a few months there..the goal you've been aiming at with incremental steps since FDR and you blew it.

There's a huge difference between a moderate and a liberal putting forth a moderate bill. I don't know how to explain this to you in words you'll understand, and if we can't even come to terms on that simple point I think we're just going to go round and round on this one to nobody's benefit.

I'm frankly shocked that you think Obama is pushing for a liberal bill, what with the daily headlines screaming about him getting blasted by progressives for abandoning the public option.

No, that's my point lez...Why did he even bother trying to compromise? He had a strong mandate in January and it has been slowly slipping away ever since. What did he accomplish with it? Maybe one thing...cap and trade, big frakking deal. It should have been a "liberal" bill from the start.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt No, that's my point lez. Why did he even bother trying to compromise? He had a strong mandate in January and it has been slowly slipping away ever since. What did he accomplish with it? Maybe one thing...Cap and trade, big frakking deal.

Sorry, I should have quoted. My point was directed at the17sss, who is still insisting Obama is stridently liberal. He had the opportunity to be, but as you said he took his time trying to be moderate and is now frantically trying to rally support in the 11th hour.

Just because I really don't want to do any more homework tonight.

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Originally posted by The17sss Nice try. From the AP: Obamacare disapproval at 52%: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...MuMZ1gD9AJST3O0 Rassmussen: 53% oppose Obamacare, 44% approve http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._plan_53_oppose

Use newer numbers.

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These swing voters reacted strongly to Obama's message. Support for Obama's plan jumped 20 points, from 46 percent before the speech to 66 percent after. Importantly, Obama also achieved one of his principal goals of boosting the intensity of support. Prior to the speech, just 2 percent of these swing voters supported the plan strongly while 26 percent opposed it strongly; by the end of the evening those numbers were virtually reversed, with 28 percent supporting the plan strongly against just 8 percent strongly opposed. The president was also extremely successful in moving the needle on areas where progressives have struggled over the last few months, making great strides in reassuring voters on issues like the deficits and taxes, seniors and Medicare, choice and control, competition and costs, and government intervention.

http://www.democracycorps.com/focus...support-reform/

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That statement could be even funnier than your CNN spin poll. The man with the most liberal voting record in the Senate is a moderate. Right! And I have some ocean front real estate I'd like to sell you.

See point above. There's a large distinction between a liberal offering a moderate bill and a moderate politician. I think you're intelligent enough to understand that.

quote:

And what makes you think YOU have the numbers correct? Obama himself has said 12-20 million, which seems to be the number everyone uses... but they don't really know. How do you also explain the number in his speech dropping from 47 to 30 million amid the "illegal immigrants" arguments?

I'm using the numbers the Republican Bush Administration arrived at, as revised by more recent population projections at the U.S. Census and Factcheck.org:
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...ill_pe_2006.pdf

I don't know what number Obama is referring to, or whether immigration had anything to do with his number at all.

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You're even talking like him now. "Let me be clear". What makes you so sure that you're right about the above statement?

Because... well, I've read the bill and various cogent analyses from other people who have read the bill.

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You keep asking people if they've read the bill. Well now I'm asking you. Page 16 of the bill has a provision that makes private insurance illegal. Sure you can keep your plan that you like... until it expires, or the premium changes, or you change any form of coverage at any point. Then it will be impossible to get private insurance any longer. Read here--> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...332548165656854

It says that you need to purchase any revised insurance plans through a regulated exchange, as I mentioned previously. This does not preclude one from purchasing a new private policy.

Via Factcheck:

quote:

Under the House bill, people who want to buy new individual, nongroup coverage will have to purchase it through a new health insurance exchange. They can still buy private insurance � the exchange, in fact, would offer a range of private plans, in addition to a new federal health insurance option. However, those who were already buying their own insurance before the bill went into effect � about 14 million Americans � will have their plans grandfathered in. The part of the bill IBD cites doesn�t forbid insurers from issuing new plans. It says that new individual plans will not be considered grandfathered, and will have to be purchased through the exchange.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/se...ut-health-care/

quote:

Why is this a surprise? Obama is on video speaking to the SEIU and AFL-CIO in 2003 and 2007 specifically saying he is a proponant of a single payer system, it's what he wants, it's what he will fight to get. Barney Frank has said on video that the public option will lead to it. Several other Democrats have as well. I have all the links to them saying as much. I've posted them before, and yet you ignore them or pretend like they never happened/don't matter. You're drinking in the Orwellian juice like crazy!

He did want it, but then he presented a watered-down bill in the interest of being moderate to placate criticism. Huge miscalculation on his part, as Cap pointed out very nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov It says that you need to purchase any revised insurance plans through a regulated exchange, as I mentioned previously. This does not preclude one from purchasing a new private policy.

From the article I linked to:

quote:

the "Limitation On New Enrollment" section of the bill clearly states: "Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law. So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised � with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.

Nevermind too that, again, he's been pimping the single payer trojan horse (public option) for many years. Are we to beleive that now he's offering something moderate? If he wants a public option in the bill, who's end result will lead to single payer, how can it be argued otherwise? In his words, "It may take 15 or 20 years to get there, but that's the best way to make it happen." Again, if the urgency to pass the legislation were to deal with a problem immediately, then why postpone the date when it would go into effect 4 years.... specifically, until the year after the next presidential election? The only reasonable answer seems to be that he wanted to get this massive government takeover of medical care passed into law before the public understood what was in it. Occam's razor.

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He did want it, but then he presented a watered-down bill in the interest of being moderate to placate criticism. Huge miscalculation on his part, as Cap pointed out very nicely.

It isn't watered down... just a more stealth version of the same. Jim Geraghty says it best:

"We're expected to believe a Democrat-controlled Congress, with deep divisions in its ranks, will put together a bill that will keep everything the same for those who have health insurance through their jobs, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA; mandate coverage of pre-existing conditions; ban caps on coverage; mandate coverage of routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies; offer health insurance to 30 million uninsured; provide tax credits for small businesses; painlessly mandate coverage for the young healthy uninsured; provide hardship waivers; provide choice and competition; keep insurance companies honest; avoid taxpayer subsidies for public option plans; keep out illegal immigrants; not pay for abortions; and not deny care to the elderly because of cost-benefit analyses, all while not adding one dime to our deficits � either now or in the future."

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