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Originally posted by ziptnf Ooh! Ooh! I know this one. Americans are really, really, really fucking stupid. It's already happening:

Haha colour me unsurprised. Basic economics is one of the first casualties of simplistic populist nonsense. In the early days of 2017 trump had to ask what a change in USD value meant. Simpletons are obsessed with manufacturing at the expense of any other sector. They ignore their increases in living standards resulting from free trade. Uneducated peasantry.

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Originally posted by Zharen Because the Leftist media, who have truly become the arm of the DNC (with the exception of Fox News), has done nothing but bring this up. Jan 6, Jan 6, they have beat this dead horse to a pulp for the past 3 years. It may have sounded shocking in the headlines, but literally not one single politician was harmed or killed during this event. I believe one police officer was killed, a female protester was also killed, and that was it. The building sustained some damage, but the media makes it sound as if the entire Capitol bldg went up in flames or something. I assure you, it's still there. Most of the people responsible for actually setting foot in the bldg have already been identified and arrested. Dozens of them have been tried and convicted by both the FBI and DOJ. Perhaps a bit too aggressively, as those prosecutions ended up angering Trump's base. By contrast, you had the BLM riots from 2020, where the same media practically dismissed all of the violence and burglarized businesses happening in the liberal cities. They called them mostly peaceful protests, which they were not. For those of us on the right, we find that hypocritical. I suppose if the Jan 6 event had happened 6 months before the election, this would have been a bigger issue. But after 3 years of constantly being beaten over the head by it, most of us don't care anymore. Like Kamala said, it's time to turn the page.

Do you not see it's about much more than property damage though? Or even about the lives of the people killed? The riot was simply the last ditch attempt of a two month long campaign by Donald Trump to overthrow a legitimate election result. There was never anything wrong with the voting machines or the postal votes or anything else. You know there wasn't. He knew there wasn't. It really was as simple as the fact he couldn't bear to lose and he tried every single dirty underhand trick to trash the democratic process of the United States of America for his personal benefit. And the fact a mob broke into the seat of government and tried to use physical violence to make it happen at the instruction of your own leader is something you see in a banana boat republic.

I know Trump has his diehard MAGA base who quite frankly seem like aliens from a different planet to me. But I really thought the average suburban Republican would have woken up after the last election and seen the very, very dark places Trump's narcissism had led you as a nation. And honestly, it briefly looked like the Republican party had done that, right up until the primaries revealed that Trump's MAGA army were going to blast past any other moderate candidate all over again. As soon as Trump became the only ticket back into power, everyone suddenly forgot about what he'd tried to do. He doesn't give the first fuck about America or patriotism. Do you not see that? He cares about himself, and he'll undermine democratic structures that have been in place for 250 years to make sure he stays on top.

And I know Republican voters always come back with "Well the Dems cried about Russian interference in 2016". Yes, they cried. Yes, they commissioned an investigation after the fact which didn't go anywhere. But they accepted defeat and they obeyed the democracy of the nation. They didn't try to undermine the fabric of the nation.

Yeah yeah. You smug Europeans always think you know things better than lifelong American citizens do. Such a shame, I actually held out some hope for you System-J. You seemed somewhat reasonable in the past. But I knew I wasn't going to change any of your thoughts. I know you guys pretty damn well. From Krysta 101, to Frenchie, to Alberto Falk, I've seen a lot of weird shit getting posted on here throughout the years. Always the same conceited group just laughing and having their heads too far up their asses. I didn't come back here to sway your opinions, I came here to remind you how irrelevant you all are when it comes to American politics. Trump is President yet again and there's nothing you can do to stop that. Bitch and whine all you want, this is how it is now. A new chapter in American history will be written, and MAGA will be driving it at the helm. Either accept that, or get out the fucking way. Bye now.

Oh and one last thing, this is who you are siding with. Real winners you picked

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Do you not see...

never tire reading your posts but surely you realise (like i eventually did re 911 and then every other conspiracy dickhead afterwards) - you can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into.

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Originally posted by Zharen Bye now.

This is the second time now you've run away as soon as my questioning gets a bit tough. I presume it'll be the last.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN never tire reading your posts but surely you realise (like i eventually did re 911 and then every other conspiracy dickhead afterwards) - you can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into.

Of course I do. I'm not trying to change his mind. The guy came back after three years for a 20 post trolling spree about Trump on a dead trance forum. Obviously one or two well worded posts aren't suddenly going to make him see the light.

What I am interested in is how he mentally squares away the unforgiveable bullshit Trump has done. Because look, I kinda get it. Up until November 2020, Trump hadn't actually fucked up as badly as people expected. Yes his conduct as a head of state was deeply childish and unsavoury, yes he did all the stuff you'd expect from any Republican leader regarding things like climate initiatives. But his gonzo foreign policy style did genuinely seem to unnerve hostile foreign powers. His lack of interest in anything beyond America's borders did mean a refreshing lack of war mongering. And the economy did seem pretty stable. I can even see the logic that Trump would have probably abandoned Ukraine straight away which would have avoided the bulk of the enormous inflationary pressures caused from the economic war with Russia. Which if you're an average gas guzzling Joe from Jerkwater USA is probably more important than geopolitical relations in Europe.

But the bit I genuinely don't get is the mental gymnastics Republicans need to perform to buy into the whole "election theft" narrative. And while some of them are just idiotic Bible thumping rednecks, Zharen here previously voted for Obama so I am guessing he is something closer to an American moderate swing voter. And those are the people I really thought would be horrified by Trump's attack on the institutions which I thought conservatism was so interested in protecting.

Based on his response and his reaction, I'm not sure he sees the US constitution or Capitol Hill as meaningfully different from smug Europeans, arrogant college educated liberals or Lews. Just a whole bunch of people and things above him who've made him feel acutely aware he's been the "below" part of the equation his whole life, and now Trump is his revenge.

Zharen also learned what tariffs are just yesterday, give him time to process it.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J But the bit I genuinely don't get is the mental gymnastics Republicans need to perform to buy into the whole "election theft" narrative. And while some of them are just idiotic Bible thumping rednecks, Zharen here previously voted for Obama so I am guessing he is something closer to an American moderate swing voter. And those are the people I really thought would be horrified by Trump's attack on the institutions which I thought conservatism was so interested in protecting.

fair enough. i just don't expect (or have seen) any internal consistency to this brand of so-called 'conservatism', so see the election-theft narrative as just one more mental event in a long line of gymnastic competitions. they don't really have a strong belief in system/institution protection because they're not really conservatives; i therefore don't really expect them (or the apparent 'moderates') to be able to explain Jan 6 and its lead up in ideological or rational terms.

I was reading and listening to a few perspectives on the result yesterday, and an idea I heard more than once is that we have effectively left behind the era of stable, consensual post-war democracy forever and the historical tendency now is towards public distrust with our current democratic systems, a tendency which is only likely to strength in the coming years.

Not a new idea in itself, but I'm so used to hearing it presented in economic terms by leftwingers that people are sick of capitalism, and naturally some form of socialism with fairer redistribution is the answer. But what if that's the wrong focus, and actually people are sick of democracy? A lot of the populace seem to be significantly angrier at politicians than they are at billionaires. Elon Musk is hated by the left but his approval ratings in the general public are probably higher than most politicians, and an explicit part of Trump's appeal is that he's a rich businessman: he's a winner, he builds big skyscrapers, he gets stuff done.

The more I think about it like this, the more it starts to make sense that these people don't care about Trump trying to dismantle the democratic process. Because "the system" has failed people, so why not smash it up? Why keep this political model where you constantly risk handing back power to people you don't agree with? Why not ensure your own views are put in power and then break everything so it stays that way forever? I doubt people like Zharen can look themselves in the eye and vocalise this stuff yet, because all that bullshit about the sanctity of the constitution is ingrained pretty deep in America, but it looks very much like the majority of the US population simply doesn't value the democratic process. After all, if an angry mob had stormed Wall Street in 2009 and tried to set fire to the trading floors, I suspect a lot on the left would nod their head in approval.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The more I think about it like this, the more it starts to make sense that these people don't care about Trump trying to dismantle the democratic process. Because "the system" has failed people, so why not smash it up? Why keep this political model where you constantly risk handing back power to people you don't agree with? Why not ensure your own views are put in power and then break everything so it stays that way forever? I doubt people like Zharen can look themselves in the eye and vocalise this stuff yet, because all that bullshit about the sanctity of the constitution is ingrained pretty deep in America, but it looks very much like the majority of the US population simply doesn't value the democratic process. After all, if an angry mob had stormed Wall Street in 2009 and tried to set fire to the trading floors, I suspect a lot on the left would nod their head in approval.

About the only thing 'all sides' agree with is the current system is highly dysfunctional and needs some kind of change. Unfortunately, half want a more autocratic variant of government, the other something more socialist, with neither willing to compromise. And with the current Democrats leadership's steadfast refusal to change beyond 'business as usual with incremental benefits', a more radical shift to authoritarian change does seem more appealing to a significant chunk of the population.

Its like "hey, I know Trump will fuck up a lot of shit if he does what he says he'll do, but at least it's something other than the continual grind we're experiencing." And there may be something to that. After all, the last time America elected a 'businessman President', major social changes like the New Deal were enacted after his term. True, they had to go through a Great Depression to get there, but sometimes the only way for positive change to happen is for a world of hurt to happen first.

Just sucks we may have to live through one of those.

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Originally posted by Zharen Oh and one last thing, this is who you are siding with. Real winners you picked

I'm learning more and more about the average MAGA brain here. Keep it coming.

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Originally posted by Zharen Yeah yeah. You smug Europeans always think you know things better than lifelong American citizens do. Such a shame, I actually held out some hope for you System-J. You seemed somewhat reasonable in the past. But I knew I wasn't going to change any of your thoughts. I know you guys pretty damn well. From Krysta 101, to Frenchie, to Alberto Falk, I've seen a lot of weird shit getting posted on here throughout the years. Always the same conceited group just laughing and having their heads too far up their asses. I didn't come back here to sway your opinions, I came here to remind you how irrelevant you all are when it comes to American politics. Trump is President yet again and there's nothing you can do to stop that. Bitch and whine all you want, this is how it is now. A new chapter in American history will be written, and MAGA will be driving it at the helm. Either accept that, or get out the fucking way. Bye now. Oh and one last thing, this is who you are siding with. Real winners you picked

Were the founding fathers of America christians? A lot of christians from America say they were, and a lot of non-christians say otherwise.

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Originally posted by Mattsanity Were the founding fathers of America christians? A lot of christians from America say they were, and a lot of non-christians say otherwise.

Absolutely not. Many were deists at best; if some were Christian they certainly didn't want a theocracy. Jefferson having his own version of the Bible with all the actual Christian belief taken out of it is a good example.

Christian nationalism has been rightfully condemned as a heresy in much of Christian orthodoxy going back thousands of years. When Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world" He meant it. Or look at when Paul says in Galatians "there is neither Jew nor Greek" as the new identity is in Christ, not national origin.

Source: grew up in a conservative Christian nationalist environment and am deeply familiar with all the core arguments and misinterpretations. Still Christian (Orthodox now). My priest has preached more than one homily on the idolatry of nationalism and the perils of Christian nationalism in America in particular.

Tim Alberta's recent book "The Kingdom, The Power, and the Glory" is a good and unsettling read on the subject.

Ha, whaddya know, one of TranceAddict's own did the fundie-to-Orthodox shuffle that seems to have become a big thing lately.

Ha, is that really a thing? I converted about 5 years ago (had been a mainline non-denominational/Evangelical for a while after my fundie days). Some of the online stuff veers a bit "orthotrad" for me so I try to avoid a lot of it.

Hank Hanegraaff might be the most famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Hanegraaff

Oh yeah, that name is familiar. I remember reading about a few high-profile conversions that had happened in the 80s and 90s too. Most people thought I was turning Catholic or Russian or something so it's cool people know what it is here.

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Originally posted by camshaft Absolutely not. Many were deists at best; if some were Christian they certainly didn't want a theocracy. Jefferson having his own version of the Bible with all the actual Christian belief taken out of it is a good example. Christian nationalism has been rightfully condemned as a heresy in much of Christian orthodoxy going back thousands of years. When Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world" He meant it. Or look at when Paul says in Galatians "there is neither Jew nor Greek" as the new identity is in Christ, not national origin. Source: grew up in a conservative Christian nationalist environment and am deeply familiar with all the core arguments and misinterpretations. Still Christian (Orthodox now). My priest has preached more than one homily on the idolatry of nationalism and the perils of Christian nationalism in America in particular. Tim Alberta's recent book "The Kingdom, The Power, and the Glory" is a good and unsettling read on the subject.

Thanks for speaking the unbiased truth. The lady in this video at 1:55 must've had different, less reliable sources.

Does Trump appointing people like RFK Jr. as Secretary of Health, etc. have any actual consequences? And Musk in Department of Government Efficiency ("DOGE")...? Wish I knew enough English words to express just how surreal it looks.

To me, it just looks like 4 years of mess and ineptitude and hopefully provided that Trump doesn't abolish the institution of voting by 2028 then we can just vote for the next guy to spend half his term cleaning it all up. Rinse and fucking repeat in this retarded ass country

My favourite appointment has been the Secretary Of Defence. The US spends $900billion a year on defence and he's given the job to a Fox News presenter because he was once a grunt in Afghanistan.

It's like a group of toddlers doing pretend play. "Let's play government!"

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Originally posted by JEO Does Trump appointing people like RFK Jr. as Secretary of Health, etc. have any actual consequences? And Musk in Department of Government Efficiency ("DOGE")...? Wish I knew enough English words to express just how surreal it looks.

It could have real consequences depending on how long they last in their roles, but based on the precedent of his previous time in office, I'm guessing his new administration will be a chaos of rapid staff changes that prevent them from damaging anything too permanently.

I think us c0r wh0res would make for a functional cabinet

I dunno if I'd want to be President though - I'm not a fan of golf and I limit my McDonalds consumption to once a month maximum

I noticed you didn't say you have a problem with grabbing women by the pussy.

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Originally posted by Mattsanity Thanks for speaking the unbiased truth. The lady in this video at 1:55 must've had different, less reliable sources.

Man that just makes me sad. That Pastor Ben Marsh (starting about 2:20) gets it. Spot on. "Like a cult...breaks my heart." Yeah.

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