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But its so cool to be anti-us

and that is what fuels allot of this rhetoric

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX But its so cool to be anti-us and that is what fuels allot of this rhetoric

I would like to think that it is Canadian Nationalism rather then an anti-US sentiment that gives rise to concern over NAU amongst many Canadians. Unfortunately, for far too many Canadians the only nationalism they know is based on anti-US sentiment... sad to say at the very least. Personally,I have no fears of losing my national identity through further intergration with the US... while we are in no way dissimilar cultures the incongruities that exist are significant and based on differing values on certain issues, neither of us are willing to give up our values so neither of us will demand it from the other. That's the beautiful thing about a relationship based on shared interest and mutual respect.

RIM ??? are you guys just fucking around or what? its tiny!!

Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!!

Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy!

Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields.

What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would like to think that it is Canadian Nationalism rather then an anti-US sentiment that gives rise to concern over NAU amongst many Canadians. Unfortunately, for far too many Canadians the only nationalism they know is based on anti-US sentiment... sad to say at the very least.

Ding!

quote:

Originally posted by malek RIM ??? are you guys just fucking around or what? its tiny!! Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!! Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy! Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields. What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being.

Evil capitalists in me says, so Canadian companies decided to sell to foreign companies because foreign companies offer more money... That's inherently bad business practice?

Canada needs these foreign companies for investment, because Canada does not have enough money to develop its resources its own. It's been going on for ages! (Arguably, ever since Hudson's Bay Company since 18th century)

quote:

Originally posted by malek RIM ??? are you guys just fucking around or what? its tiny!! Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!! Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy! Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields. What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being.

Well this post gets a big fat, "Duh"

Again, putting up walls and having Crown corporations buy stuff up in the name of patriotism is not exactly a great game plan.
Adscam ring any bells?
(For those of you that aren't sure what I'm refering to here: > Sponsership Scandal <; it was Canada's largest government scandal in history).
I had no love of government involvement in business to begin with but that took the cake.
And yet again, we find people still crying out about having the government get involved where free markets should be.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree (Arguably, ever since Hudson's Bay Company since 18th century)

Excellent point... this country was founded on foriegn investment!

Actually, once a company start a hostile takeover over another one, its hard to stop the ball. Alcoa started by an offer, and it was rejected by Alcan. But once the shares start soaring and other companies start lining up to offer more and more, its impossible for Alcan to stop it because shareholders want to cash in!

Alcan looses control over the whole process and is forced to negotiate with the bidder in order to save face because the rug could just slip under them and we could loose big in Canada!

Here's a nice article to put things into perspective!!



Alcan buyout called "economic suicide" for Canada


Lynn Moore, CanWest News Service

Published: Saturday, July 14, 2007
MONTREAL -- The proposed acquisition of Alcan Inc. by the London- and Melbourne, Australia-based Rio Tinto Group is a symptom of "economic suicide" underway in this country, Montreal billionaire and shareholder activist Stephen Jarislowsky said Friday.

Others use less dramatic language as they engage in the hollowing-out-of-corporate-Canada debate but admit to growing concern over deals such as Rio Tinto's friendly $38.1-billion US bid for Alcan.

The Montreal-based aluminum producer is the 10th company on the TSX 60 to be taken over, or poised to be taken over, by a foreign company in the past three years, Jarislowsky noted.


Foreign takeovers are fuelling the Canadian dollar, which is "going through the roof" and contributing to the woes of Canada's exporting and manufacturing companies, he said.

"I think the Canadian government is wrong to let any of the 60 biggest companies get taken over by foreigners," said the founder and chairman of Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd., which manages $60 billion in assets.

The Conservative government's appointment of a panel to asses Canada's competition policy and foreign investment is akin to closing the barn door after the best horses have run away, Jarislowsky said.

"Only the stupid horses are left," along with banks and companies that, for regulatory reasons, can't leave, he said.

Ken Wong, an associate professor at Queen's University's business school, said there are few takers for unprofitable, poorly-run businesses, so it's not surprising the best companies are being bought.

But while businesses are looking out for their own interests, someone should be considering the national good, particularly when resources or resource-dependent companies are concerned, he said.

"I would be looking for certain signs that tell me that the merger or acquisition will be good for the country, not just the company" or shareholders, Wong said.

Ottawa should ensure the long-term stewardship of resources is factored into the equation so that lost resources can be tabulated in much the same way lost jobs have been, he said.

The Rio Tinto offer, unveiled Thursday, would see Rio Tinto Alcan with a head office in Montreal but its chief executive officer would report to Rio Tinto's CEO. Rio Tinto currently has its key aluminum and aluminum-related assets and offices in Australia.

Rio Tinto Alcan would be "the new hub" of Rio's aluminum business, although investment in Australia "would not be diminished," Rio Tinto CEO Tom Albanese said at Thursday's press conference in Montreal. There would be some ebb and flow of employees between Montreal and Brisbane, Australia, but the employment levels in Montreal would remain as high, if not higher, he added.

Descriptions like that make Concordia University finance professor Lawrence Kryzanowski uneasy because they remind him of what was said as Montreal head offices moved west when the separatist movement was gaining strength in Quebec.

"It is clear when a company moves a head office; less clear is when a company moves key functions out," he said. "Smart companies will do that over time."

The Royal Bank of Canada, for example, contends that it maintains a head office in Montreal but its corporate headquarters is in Toronto.

"You can say you still have the head office here in Montreal but (what matters) is where the head office work is carried out. I would expect of lot of that to happen" with Rio Tinto Alcan, Kryzanowski said.

Alcan "probably arranged the best deal for shareholders ... and Montreal," given the circumstances, Kryzanowski, an Alcan shareholder, said.


The Rio Tinto Alcan office in Montreal "will be a divisional office at best," Jarislowsky said.

One thing that helped tie Alcan to Canada were agreements between it and the governments of B.C. and Quebec that were linked to long-term, low-cost energy supplies for the aluminum producer, Kryzanowski said.

"If it wasn't for the agreements they had in both Quebec and B.C., I think the head office would probably move," he said.

The Quebec deal, signed last December just before Alcan announced a $1.8-billion US investment in the Saguaenay, requires that Alcan maintain in Quebec "substantive operational, financial and strategic activities and headquarters ... at levels which are substantially similar to those of Alcan" at the signing of the agreement.

Now it's up to Quebec and other interested parties to "be vigilant" and ensure that the deal is honoured, Kryzanowski said.

Quebec will have to decide how best to measure Rio Tinto Alcan's presence in Quebec, based on what it most values, be it payroll numbers, new products
development or research-and-development money spent, Wong said.

Montreal Gazette
[email protected]

quote:

Originally posted by malek Actually, once a company start a hostile takeover over another one, its hard to stop the ball. Alcoa started by an offer, and it was rejected by Alcan. But once the shares start soaring and other companies start lining up to offer more and more, its impossible for Alcan to stop it because shareholders want to cash in!

Heaven forefend! Imagine, people being alowed to sell something that they own for something as meaningless as money. It's down right deplorable! Everyone should immediately and heretofor defer their self interest in favour of the best interest of the state and the state alone. Malek, I recommend that you take the lead on this one.

Noooooo profits are good, but i believe you don't see the greater picture here.

I'm not a lefty or anything, i am just witnessing the erosion of Canadian ownership over our resources and top companies.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well this post gets a big fat, "Duh" Again, putting up walls and having Crown corporations buy stuff up in the name of patriotism is not exactly a great game plan. Adscam ring any bells? (For those of you that aren't sure what I'm refering to here: > Sponsership Scandal <; it was Canada's largest government scandal in history). I had no love of government involvement in business to begin with but that took the cake. And yet again, we find people still crying out about having the government get involved where free markets should be.

You're really confusing me here. Who said we need to put up more barriers? I too am against government involvement but there's a difference between opening up the country for foreign takeover and protecting our resources so that OUR country gains the most from it, and not some fat capitalist snob 10,000KM away. That's why deep integration is bad.

We can just as easily go into this NAU (or whatever they're calling it) with a set of our own rules that benefit us as much as everyone else. The problem is that the Americans are the ones practically setting rules to benefit them the most, just like NAFTA.

quote:

Originally posted by malek Noooooo profits are good, but i believe you don't see the greater picture here. I'm not a lefty or anything, i am just witnessing the erosion of Canadian ownership over our resources and top companies.

Unfortunately my friend, that is free enterprise. We cannot expect to put in place protectionary measures and then also maintain a viable economy. It just doesn't work. If you want to protect Canadian industry from foriegn ownership then you need to find a way to encourage Canadians to invest in Canadian industry... you may wish to lobby your MP to work towards incentives in this regard (tax shelters and the like). While I understand your concern closing ourselves off to the rest of the world is not the way to successfully address them. If we want a viable economy in the new global reality then we need more intergration, not less.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX But its so cool to be anti-us and that is what fuels allot of this rhetoric

It's even cooler to keep latching on that same argument and coming off as an ignorant tool.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Unfortunately my friend, that is free enterprise. We cannot expect to put in place protectionary measures and then also maintain a viable economy. It just doesn't work. If you want to protect Canadian industry from foriegn ownership then you need to find a way to encourage Canadians to invest in Canadian industry... you may wish to lobby your MP to work towards incentives in this regard (tax shelters and the like). While I understand your concern closing ourselves off to the rest of the world is not the way to successfully address them. If we want a viable economy in the new global reality then we need more intergration, not less.

Yes!
Taxes incentives for investing in Canadian markets are an excellent idea. This has to exist already no?

I totally support Canadian companies when I can but I can't picture myself supporting a company that already gets my tax dollars to prop them up to begin with.

infinity HiGH:
Foriegn ownership is always going to step in to fill the void of missing speculators and investors.
So long as they employee Canadian labour how do we loose anyways?
It up to the Canadian government to keep thoses business happy once they've established themselves.
Sure the bottom line might not be ours, but if quality product and the right (tax) incentives are here, the people win anyways.
It's really no different if the company is Canandian or not since any Canadian company can pack up and move to another country if they want, citing 'operational costs' or what-have-you at any point anyways right?

yes it existed somehow by capping the % of foreign content in ones RRSPs. Now the cap has been removed by the conservative.

As for having the head office in Canada, its having higher management jobs and keeping our best talent here not sending them abroad. Also, usually a head office is concerned by local issues and generally speaking most of them are good corporate citizens by sponsoring local events and issues. Thats why its important to keep them here.

quote:

Originally posted by malek RIM ??? are you guys just fucking around or what? its tiny!! Canada just lost Alcan to foreign intrests, third largest aluminium producer which employed 65,000 in 61 countries with 5000 in Canada!! Canada lost all of its important players in the mining buisness as of late! Its crazy! Why do foreign interests buy canadian companies? not because they love Canada but because they are profitable and are the best in their fields. What Canada might become and is becoming is a country full of branch companies where important decisions are taken elsewhere disregarding our own intrest and well-being.

Not to mention loosing Noranda and Falconbridge, top ten producers of copper and nickle. (all three companies were packaged and sold by Brookfeild asset management)

These mining losses hurt the economy doubly because the head offices are pulled out of Toronto and moved to other countries, which means that foreign banks will now be financing investment.

To strengthen the Canadian economy three things need to happen, head offices need to be kept in the country, investment in value added industries (such as oil refineries) needs to be encouraged, and competition for our exports needs to be facilitated.

Some of this we are doing, part of the reason Alcan was bought was because the smelting facilities have acess to cheap Quebecois power (hydro), which is about 1/3 of the final cost in producing Aluminum.

Unfortunately the conservative, suposedly business savy, government is responsible for the Chinese abandonment of a pipeline from Alberta to the Pacific. This would have greatly increased the number of customers our oil could reach in a cost effective manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Adscam ring any bells? (For those of you that aren't sure what I'm refering to here: > Sponsership Scandal <; it was Canada's largest government scandal in history). I had no love of government involvement in business to begin with but that took the cake. And yet again, we find people still crying out about having the government get involved where free markets should be.

Which is part of the reason the rest of the world looks at us and laughs.

The corruption in other countries is cited in million, even billions of dollars lost. We spent more money publicicing the event then was lost in the actual "scandal".

And why did the media give it so much attention? Is it because the people were concerned?

or is it because the conservatives have actively bought up the media in this country, based on the model in the US?

I agree with you on the open markets though, boy am I sick of crack being illegal. Goverment out, let the crack heads burn themselves out.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell Some of this we are doing, part of the reason Alcan was bought was because the smelting facilities have acess to cheap Quebecois power (hydro), which is about 1/3 of the final cost in producing Aluminum.

I don't know to which extent you are following this issue, but the deal with Alcan might be abandonned by Hydro Quebec if Rio Tinto lighten the importance of the head office in Montreal. I don't know how they'll measure that but its something that will be followed by other jurisdictions ...

quote:

Originally posted by malek I don't know to which extent you are following this issue, but the deal with Alcan might be abandonned by Hydro Quebec if Rio Tinto lighten the importance of the head office in Montreal. I don't know how they'll measure that but its something that will be followed by other jurisdictions ...

I've been watching moderately closely. Doesn't Alcan have some amount of generating infrastructure of it's own?

Either way that's an interesting deal Hydro is offering.

yes it does have some dams, but any companies having dams needs to pay royalty to the province for using the waters... and thats where Alcan gets its rebates.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell Which is part of the reason the rest of the world looks at us and laughs. The corruption in other countries is cited in million, even billions of dollars lost. We spent more money publicicing the event then was lost in the actual "scandal". And why did the media give it so much attention? Is it because the people were concerned? or is it because the conservatives have actively bought up the media in this country, based on the model in the US? I agree with you on the open markets though, boy am I sick of crack being illegal. Goverment out, let the crack heads burn themselves out.

Canada lost hundreds of millions of dollars in investment because of that scam.
It tainted Canada in the world market but happily the corrupt Liberal party was ousted by the people.
Conservatives eat up the media?? hahahahahaahaha....
The current government has no love for the media and thankfully so.
The $1 Billion dollar / year, tax-fed CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company; speaking of useless Crown Corporations) certainly wouldn't agree with anything the current government would have to say in our lifetime...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes! Taxes incentives for investing in Canadian markets are an excellent idea. This has to exist already no? I totally support Canadian companies when I can but I can't picture myself supporting a company that already gets my tax dollars to prop them up to begin with.

Yes, there are tax incentives in the form of tax shelters, however, the largest incentive was the Canadian content rule on RRSPs (which as Malek pointed out was scraped by "Canada's New Government," as they like to call themselves).

I think you would be shocked to learn just how many companies are supported with your tax dollars. Corporate welfare is alive and well in Canada with much of it going to corporations you'd never suspect. Personally, I don't view this as a bad thing... if part of the role of government is to protect the livelihoods of Canadians and that livelihood is threatened by businesses going under or moving to find cheaper labour then it just makes good sense that the government would assist in keeping those businesses here rather then losing that portion of the tax base. Generally, the taxes generated by the existance of these corporations outweighs the funding they receive (exception for crown corporations) thus corporate welfare is a net gain.

Most large primary production and industrial based economies have them to some degree. The US in particular has a massive amount of subsidies poured into it's agricultural sector, hefty tariff and import restrictions on what can be imported into the country to 'protect' the local industries. This makes it very hard as an exporter trying to sell into the US and lets revise what in part this thread is about.

Canada, selling stuff to the US.

Because for all the flag waving, shrieking of doom and gloom by the locals on either side of the border, you are going to be granted a very rare opportunity for equilateral trade with this country that has a an equal export-import process for everyone.
There is a very good reason why the US is doing this.
It stands a high chance of being decimated by the euro which goes from strength to strength every year and the growing threat of the Indo-China countries.
It does not make sense to proverbially hang your economy at the neck by strangling everything at the border, every cent saved there will soon amass into greater savings on both sides with this process.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Most large primary production and industrial based economies have them to some degree. The US in particular has a massive amount of subsidies poured into it's agricultural sector, hefty tariff and import restrictions on what can be imported into the country to 'protect' the local industries. This makes it very hard as an exporter trying to sell into the US and lets revise what in part this thread is about. Canada, selling stuff to the US. Because for all the flag waving, shrieking of doom and gloom by the locals on either side of the border, you are going to be granted a very rare opportunity for equilateral trade with this country that has a an equal export-import process for everyone. There is a very good reason why the US is doing this. It stands a high chance of being decimated by the euro which goes from strength to strength every year and the growing threat of the Indo-China countries. It does not make sense to proverbially hang your economy at the neck by strangling everything at the border, every cent saved there will soon amass into greater savings on both sides with this process.

In other words, if Yank economy die, so will Canadian economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard "Canada's New Government,"

Another great decision was made by this "new govt" and it may have slipped under the radar in the ROC.

The Army wanted to buy 30 brand new Coach buses via a public tender, the winning company is SETRA, a German company.

SETRA outbid one, MCI from winnipeg, of the two canadian companies who build these kind of buses (the other is Pr�vost in Montr�al) by a measily 2,000$ a bus! The total contract is valued at 15 million$

So to save 60,000$ over a 15 million$ contract, provincial and federal govts lost much much more on income and other taxes.

SETRA won't pay a dime in taxes here. Moreover, parts and service will have to be imported from Germany while we have two great companies doing just that here.

Was that really smart when 240,000 manufacturing jobs were lost in Canada in the last 4 years ?



just found it:

German company gets defence deal
JOE FRIESEN

July 17, 2007

WINNIPEG -- Workers at a Winnipeg bus plant are furious after the Conservative government chose a German company for a $14-million Defence Department contract.

Winnipeg's Motor Coach Industries lost the contract to Setra, a German-based subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler, after the rival company submitted a slightly lower bid.

"Our concern is that the Feds should be buying Canadian, especially when we're talking about a minimal difference between these two bids," said Brian Short, spokesman for Local 1953 of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

Motor Coach Industries was told the difference between the two bids was less than $2,000 a unit on a contract to build 30 buses at a cost of nearly $500,000 each.

Pat Martin, the MP for Winnipeg Centre, said he can't believe the government doesn't have a "made in Canada" procurement policy for defence contracts, particularly given the billions of dollars in spending that have been promised over the next few years.

"We're sending the message that if you want a good bus for your country's armed forces, do what we do, buy German," Mr. Martin said.

"[Stephen] Harper's been dining out on the falsehood that all this military procurement will be good for the Canadian economy. ... Well, how do you explain this?"

The contract was awarded by the Ministry of Public Works and Government Services. A spokeswoman said in an e-mail that the government supports the Canadian manufacturing sector, but chose the bid that offered the best value to the Canadian taxpayer.

The government's Canadian content policy applies only when there are three qualified Canadian bidders, she said. In this case, only two bidders had manufacturing plants in Canada, Motor Coach Industries and Quebec-based Prevost, so the bidding was opened up.

The Department of Defence already operates 13 of Motor Coach Industries' J-Model buses. The department will now have to buy parts and supply technical and maintenance support for another brand of vehicle, and will lose the tax dollars and related spending on Canadian supplies for the manufacturer, the company said.

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