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HEY! You all need to watch your language in here

Which language, Tubs?

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Oh, I never heard anyone saying that they find Cantonese fascinating..! How come?

Unfortunately, I think Mandarin ecplipses all other Chinese languages and, if you're not really acquainted with them, you're bound to think Cantonese is just "a dialect", a different way of speaking Mandarin as British English is a different way of speaking English to most Americans (when the difference is much much more profound than that).

But, yeah, I wish I had more time to study Cantonese. It's quite different from Mandarin, isn't it? I remember I picked up some introductory lessons and it made no sense to me at first!

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Originally posted by Unique2701 I find it interesting that (as you may know) we choose different words when we speak than when we write for some words. For example, 說 (to say) is the word we use to write with, but we wouldn't use this through oral communication. We would use 廣 (not entirely sure this is how you write it) which means exactly the same but that you pronounce in a whole different way.

That's called diglossia, and the extent to which the written language differs from its spoken counterpart is different depending on the language... that's probably a case in which the written language failed to "catch up", and I'd bet that's more of an archaic word. Isn't it?

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Wow, respect! It's not an easy language to learn, is it? Such long pronouncations.. I'd love to be able to speak Japanese but I'm too lazy to learn a whole new language. I like a lot of books from Japanese writers, would love to read some of it in Japanese to see how different it is from their English translation and not all of it is translated.

Japanese is not really difficult: the grammar is more complex than Mandarin, but it's a lot easier for us that speak an European language to pick Japanese up than another East Asian language, specially because of the pronunciation (I had some trouble with the intonation in Mandarin, and my head almost exploded when I saw how the tones in Cantonese work ).

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Have u ever studied in Japan? Btw, a Japanese colony in Brasil? LOL Are there lots of Chinese ppl too?

I've just been once to Japan for 20 days, as a tourist, didn't have the chance to study there. As for the Japanese colony, Brazil is home to the largest Japanese colony in the world, though it's scattered accross the Brazilian territory, rather than just in one city.

And, strange as it is, there are some Chinese immigrants in São Paulo but very few of them here where I live (Brasília). I for one would welcome the presence of more immigrants from China... though I wish there were more immigrants as a whole

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Have u ever studied in Japan? Btw, a Japanese colony in Brasil? LOL Are there lots of Chinese ppl too?

brazil is not only the second , actually i think it would be the third since most of them who escaped went to argentina instead, home to the nazis, there is alot of japanese people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilian there be info here aswell, but they left out the part of godzilla seeking refuge in the harbours.

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Originally posted by montana brazil is not only the second

The second? It's the first

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Originally posted by Lira Unfortunately, I think Mandarin ecplipses all other Chinese languages and, if you're not really acquainted with them, you're bound to think Cantonese is just "a dialect", a different way of speaking Mandarin as British English is a different way of speaking English to most Americans (when the difference is much much more profound than that). But, yeah, I wish I had more time to study Cantonese. It's quite different from Mandarin, isn't it? I remember I picked up some introductory lessons and it made no sense to me at first!

The written language of Cantonese is the same as Mandarin, just the pronouncation is a bit different. You can think of it a bit as the difference between Dutch - German.

I guess what makes Cantonese more difficult to learn is the difference between the written language and its spoken counterpart. This difference doesn't exist in Mandarin. That might be the reason why the written language can't change to the spoken counterpart. The written language is more formal, polite. I can't really say if it's an archaic word which I used as my example, as I've been familiar with it my whole life..

quote:

As for the Japanese colony, Brazil is home to the largest Japanese colony in the world, though it's scattered accross the Brazilian territory, rather than just in one city.

This and Tony's wiki article is quite interesting.. I had no idea

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Originally posted by Unique2701 The written language of Cantonese is the same as Mandarin, just the pronouncation is a bit different. You can think of it a bit as the difference between Dutch - German. I guess what makes Cantonese more difficult to learn is the difference between the written language and its spoken counterpart. This difference doesn't exist in Mandarin. That might be the reason why the written language can't change to the spoken counterpart. The written language is more formal, polite. I can't really say if it's an archaic word which I used as my example, as I've been familiar with it my whole life..

Would it be accurate to say you speak Cantonese but write in Mandarin, then?

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Originally posted by Unique2701 This and Tony's wiki article is quite interesting.. I had no idea

Yeah, this is not exactly well known abroad, but it's all right. In a hundred years or so they'll probably be assimilated just like all the other colonies anyway

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Originally posted by Lira Would it be accurate to say you speak Cantonese but write in Mandarin, then?

Nah, people don't make a distinction between that for the written language. We just call it all Chinese. The only distinction we make and is what I forgot to say is that we use traditional characters for writing as Cantonese people, whereas they use simplified characters in mainland China in general (except maybe Guangzhou, just across the border with Hong Kong where they speak Cantonese more).

for example 馬 - horse with a traditional character, the simplified character for it is 马. It's usually the same aspects within a character that they choose to simplify or leave out

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Originally posted by Unique2701 You can think of it a bit as the difference between Dutch - German.

This seems preposterous. Dutch and German are so wildly different. The few Germans I have known, can't understand Dutch with any consistency. It may work the opposite way though, that Dutch speaking natives can understand German pretty well, but I am unsure on this.

ps: I took German for 3 years, and could barely get a few words that the Dutch would speak, but could almost fully understand everything someone would say in German.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel This seems preposterous. Dutch and German are so wildly different. The few Germans I have known, can't understand Dutch with any consistency. It may work the opposite way though, that Dutch speaking natives can understand German pretty well, but I am unsure on this. ps: I took German for 3 years, and could barely get a few words that the Dutch would speak, but could almost fully understand everything someone would say in German.

Most Dutchies can speak a fair bit of German. Some words are pretty similiar but some others can be very different indeed. What I meant to say with it, is that by giving it a certain twist, you can get very close to saying it correct in German/Mandarin, but you can also be totally miss.

quote:

Originally posted by Unique2701 Most Dutchies can speak a fair bit of German. Some words are pretty similiar but some others can be very different indeed. What I meant to say with it, is that by giving it a certain twist, you can get very close to saying it correct in German/Mandarin, but you can also be totally miss.

Yeah the Dutchies understanding and speaking more German than Germans understanding and speaking Dutch was something I had heard (long ago, but never knew anyone that could speak Dutch at that time) but was never confirmed. As for the differences, I understand what you're saying, but still have some reservations. Since I know my aunt and a former co-worker both speak Cantonese, but I know that the former co-worker can't really understand a lot of Mandarin. She only knows the simplified stuff for the most part.

My aunt was born in Shanghai and lived there till about 5 or 6 years ago, when she married my uncle and moved to the US.

Easter

My sis Pamela, Two cousins Hailey and Kendra and me.

quote:

Originally posted by Unique2701 Most Dutchies can speak a fair bit of German. Some words are pretty similiar but some others can be very different indeed. What I meant to say with it, is that by giving it a certain twist, you can get very close to saying it correct in German/Mandarin, but you can also be totally miss.

Yeah. I can speak a decent amount of German, but can barely understand Dutch at all. My grandfather speaks amazing Dutch, and understands a pretty decent amount of German. Not as much as me, but a surprising amount for someone who has never had lessons.

Ben, you also need to keep in mind that "German" is a flexible label given to all dialects spoken in German/Switzerland/Austria that share a common root. The German spoken near the Dutch border is indeed close to Dutch, and there are cases in which someone from this area can't understand someone that lives near the Polish border, for example, or from Switzerland, even though all three of them are supposed to be speaking German.

Well, that's how it went until a few decades ago. Maybe now that television is ubiquitous there's been a levelling between different dialects and it's become easier to understand one another in German.

I believe this continuum must also exist in China... that's how languages work in general, and both Cantonese and Mandarin evolved from a common ancestor, just like Dutch and Deutsch

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Nah, people don't make a distinction between that for the written language. We just call it all Chinese. The only distinction we make and is what I forgot to say is that we use traditional characters for writing as Cantonese people, whereas they use simplified characters in mainland China in general (except maybe Guangzhou, just across the border with Hong Kong where they speak Cantonese more). for example 馬 - horse with a traditional character, the simplified character for it is 马. It's usually the same aspects within a character that they choose to simplify or leave out

Interesting. Doesn't it make the grammar somewhat clumsy when you read?

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Originally posted by Lira Ben, you also need to keep in mind that "German" is a flexible label given to all dialects spoken in German/Switzerland/Austria that share a common root. The German spoken near the Dutch border is indeed close to Dutch, and there are cases in which someone from this area can't understand someone that lives near the Polish border, for example, or from Switzerland, even though all three of them are supposed to be speaking German. Well, that's how it went until a few decades ago. Maybe now that television is ubiquitous there's been a levelling between different dialects and it's become easier to understand one another in German. I believe this continuum must also exist in China... that's how languages work in general, and both Cantonese and Mandarin evolved from a common ancestor, just like Dutch and Deutsch Interesting. Doesn't it make the grammar somewhat clumsy when you read?

When I took German in secondary school (98-2001) it seemed, from my experience (we had 2 foreign exchange students. One from the north near Hamburg and one from Berlin) that there was very little difference, with the exception of the pronunciation of things like the G, the pronoun ich, and a few other small things. Now maybe it is just because of the education type or something. I am unsure. I am no expert either.

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Originally posted by Lira Interesting. Doesn't it make the grammar somewhat clumsy when you read?

Nah, not at all. The grammar remains the same, it's just that some of the individual characters that are being simplified.

Chinese grammer is pretty limited. Verbs remain the same for everyone (I/you/her/they etc) and for the rules for the different tenses are not very complicated. The main difference with English is that we don't place time and location at the end of the sentence.

Haha, it's funny that you ask me all these questions about the Chinese language. It really makes me think about it, which I normally never do.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Yeah the Dutchies understanding and speaking more German than Germans understanding and speaking Dutch was something I had heard (long ago, but never knew anyone that could speak Dutch at that time) but was never confirmed. As for the differences, I understand what you're saying, but still have some reservations. Since I know my aunt and a former co-worker both speak Cantonese, but I know that the former co-worker can't really understand a lot of Mandarin. She only knows the simplified stuff for the most part. My aunt was born in Shanghai and lived there till about 5 or 6 years ago, when she married my uncle and moved to the US.

I think that common ancestor that Lira mentioned really make a difference. On my last trip, I met a Danish couple who understood most of the things me and my friends were saying in Dutch.

Once you speak Cantonese and you start to pay attention to what words are being pronounced differently in what way in Mandarin, it will become much easier to get the hang of it. For example if you notice that the "ue" tone in Cantonese always turn into "u" then you can apply that for other characters as well in your pronouncation.

Quite a number of Cantonese people I know just know how to speak Mandarin without ever really learning it, they learn it while they try to maintain a conversation in Mandarin. It also makes a big difference how your counterparty speaks Mandarin. Most people (that are not from the upperclass) pronounce it in a very "rough" way.

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Originally posted by Unique2701 I think that common ancestor that Lira mentioned really make a difference. On my last trip, I met a Danish couple who understood most of the things me and my friends were saying in Dutch. Once you speak Cantonese and you start to pay attention to what words are being pronounced differently in what way in Mandarin, it will become much easier to get the hang of it. For example if you notice that the "ue" tone in Cantonese always turn into "u" then you can apply that for other characters as well in your pronouncation. Quite a number of Cantonese people I know just know how to speak Mandarin without ever really learning it, they learn it while they try to maintain a conversation in Mandarin. It also makes a big difference how your counterparty speaks Mandarin. Most people (that are not from the upperclass) pronounce it in a very "rough" way.

Dutch and Danish are way closer than Dutch and German. Dutch and Danish are originating from the northern areas of Scandinavia, whereas German, and its related languages did not, that I am aware of. Although I could be wrong.

That is cool. Languages are so interesting to me. Just the intricacies.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel When I took German in secondary school (98-2001) it seemed, from my experience (we had 2 foreign exchange students. One from the north near Hamburg and one from Berlin) that there was very little difference, with the exception of the pronunciation of things like the G, the pronoun ich, and a few other small things. Now maybe it is just because of the education type or something. I am unsure. I am no expert either.

As I said, it's not unlikely that, thanks to the mass media (and modern education) there's a certain levelling going on between different dialects. These are educated individuals from contemporary Germany, the tales I heard were told a long time ago.

But yeah, the only reason why there's "German" and "Dutch" today is because distant dialects of a continuum were "frozen" and they turned out to be mutually unintelligible... Spanish and Portuguese (or the trio Swedish-Norwegian-Danish) were maybe closer to one another in these continua found in Europe, but they aren't so different, yet they aren't (always) mutually intelligible. Such is speech.

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Nah, not at all. The grammar remains the same, it's just that some of the individual characters that are being simplified. Chinese grammer is pretty limited. Verbs remain the same for everyone (I/you/her/they etc) and for the rules for the different tenses are not very complicated. The main difference with English is that we don't place time and location at the end of the sentence.

I know Chinese grammar is simple, but I expected some major differences to arise after a few centuries, just like what happened with the pronunciation. This is all very interesting.

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Haha, it's funny that you ask me all these questions about the Chinese language. It really makes me think about it, which I normally never do.

It's part of my job... I always do that to people - I hope you don't mind

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Dutch and Danish are way closer than Dutch and German. Dutch and Danish are originating from the northern areas of Scandinavia, whereas German, and its related languages did not, that I am aware of. Although I could be wrong.

Actually... this is how the languages are divided:

• West Germanic languages
  
  
  • Dutch (Low Franconian, West Germanic)
  
  
  • Low German (West Germanic)
  
  
  • Central German (High German, West Germanic)
  
  
  • Upper German (High German, West Germanic)
  
  
  • English (Anglo-Frisian, West Germanic)
  
  
  • Frisian (Anglo-Frisian, West Germanic)
  
  


• North Germanic languages
  
  
  • Continental Scandinavian languages
    
    
    • Danish
    
    
    • Norwegian
    
    
    • Swedish
  
  
  • Insular Scandinavian languages:
    
    
    • Faroese
    
    
    • Icelandic

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Dutch and Danish are way closer than Dutch and German. Dutch and Danish are originating from the northern areas of Scandinavia, whereas German, and its related languages did not, that I am aware of. Although I could be wrong.

Maybe it's because I've been taught German in high school for several years (I feel a bit ashamed I'm terrible at it now), thus making it familiar, but they way I see it, Danish is a whole lot different from Dutch than German is.

As Unique said, with some Dutch words you can give it a subtle twist, that way 'creating' the German word. With Danish, that wouldn't work.

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Originally posted by Lira I know Chinese grammar is simple, but I expected some major differences to arise after a few centuries, just like what happened with the pronunciation. This is all very interesting. It's part of my job... I always do that to people - I hope you don't mind

The grammer hasn't changed. I'm trying to remember how the grammer was with the older text pieces I had to read (for history or poetry classes) but to my knowledge it hasn't changed over such a long time span either.

Does grammer change at all? Dutch grammer hasn't either (in the last 20 years), but the spelling did.

Hehe I don't mind, but it's challenging to explain it well sometimes. Cantonese is the first language I learned, so it all seems natural to me without thinking about it

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Originally posted by Unique2701 The grammer hasn't changed. I'm trying to remember how the grammer was with the older text pieces I had to read (for history or poetry classes) but to my knowledge it hasn't changed over such a long time span either.

I remember I read about it once, but I don't really remember much about the history of the Chinese language.

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Does grammer change at all? Dutch grammer hasn't either (in the last 20 years), but the spelling did.

Yes, it does, though it usually takes a lot more than a couple of decades to change so abruptly. For example, the future marker in most Romance language is quite recent (i.e. it developed in the last thousand years or so).

In Latin, if you wanted to say "I'll sing", you said "Canta-bo". -bo marked the future for the 1st person (that is, me ). If you wanted to say "I have to sing" you'd say "Cantare habeo" (Sing I have). Roughly speaking, all was fine and dandy until the following generations interpreted this as a future marker, because the things you have to do are invariably done in the future (you don't need to do something if you've already done it in the past). Also, some of the sounds "eroded" as you'd expect them to do over time, so "habeo" became "ho" in Italian and "hei" in Portuguese (the "h" is silent!). If you want to say "I'll sing" in these languages now, you have to say "Canter-ò" in Italian (notice that "-ò" sounds like "ho") and "Cantar-ei" in Portuguese (once again, "-ei" and "hei" are pronounced the same way). So, what used to mean an obligation became over time a future marker.

This is once again changing in my language. I won't EVER say "cantarei" in real life unless I'm drunk or in a formal environment I can't escape. I'd usually say "Vou cantar", which means "I go sing", which is a form also found in other Romance languages.

The same happened in English, but with the verb "to will"... as a matter of fact, isn't there a verb in Chinese (yao, I guess) that means "to want/to will" and that can also be used in sentences that haven't happened yet? Such as "Wo yao he cha" (I want to drink tea / I will drink tea)? It's been a while since I last studied Chinese, but I remember I saw this verb pop up every now and it's still seen as a verb by current Chinese speakers... but it's only a matter of time until it becomes an actual future marker, just like "gei" also seems to mean both the verb "to give" and the preposition "to/for"... but I'm just speculating here, because "gei wo" didn't always mean "Give me" but "for me/to me".

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Originally posted by Unique2701 Hehe I don't mind, but it's challenging to explain it well sometimes. Cantonese is the first language I learned, so it all seems natural to me without thinking about it

It's natural, I don't think that much about my own language either

Very interesting.

Just like your face!

btw -

You should cruise to The Standard on Sunday

I guess Hal is right. Threads swerve to topics of my interest quite quickly, I should stop doing that

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