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Trying to learn more about techno

Being a trance listener most of my life I've recently discovered the wonders of techno through some of the people here.

I wonder though how I can get more experience in this genr�. What are the differences between dub and melodic, what is typical for the old Detroit sound? So far I've done some reading on the history of techno (Juan Atkins and how it started) and heard some tracks/mixes from Villalobos and Gui Boratto.

As shameful as it may sound I sometimes have a hard time hearing the difference between progressive house & certain techno genres.

I'm a newb on this territory so educate me (or just indoctrinate me with your favorite artist)


Thank'you

Fergie_-_Godskitchen_280203, early part of this set is mental imo. somehow melodic tribal acid techno funky as hell with hot mixing and fast drums.

Start with Dave Clarke

Adam Beyer, Josh Wink, Carl Craig. Can't go wrong imo.

josh wink so dated imo

you are going to need a scarf.

Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney Being a trance listener most of my life I've recently discovered the wonders of techno through some of the people here. I wonder though how I can get more experience in this genr�. What are the differences between dub and melodic, what is typical for the old Detroit sound? So far I've done some reading on the history of techno (Juan Atkins and how it started) and heard some tracks/mixes from Villalobos and Gui Boratto. As shameful as it may sound I sometimes have a hard time hearing the difference between progressive house & certain techno genres. I'm a newb on this territory so educate me (or just indoctrinate me with your favorite artist) Thank'you

ok - first of all - gui boratto has little to do with villalobos has little to do with juan atkins

in a nutshell (ps i am abbreviating and generalizing to make this concise, so don't take this for the complete truth)

techno was birthed in detroit, by a generation of suburban detroit kids (most of them african-american) who grew up listening to deejays like the electrifying mojo and the hot mix five out of chicago. these deejays would play forward thinking electronic music like tangerine dream, kraftwerk, moroder, herbie hancock, parliament funkadelic etc. the detroit kids were also aware of what was going on with house music in chicago at the time, hearing ron hardy playing proto-house music produced with drum machines. some of these kids got a hold of drum machines and started making music with them. then they began to mythologize what they were doing, reading books like alvin toffler's 'future shock'. at this time, lots of people were doing related things - house music was basically disco remade with drum machines, electro was funk remade with drum machines, hip hop was funk remade with turntables, etc. techno became music of the drum machine itself, almost like an alien music - this is why it was so easy to mythologize. Additionally, many of the early detroit producers were influenced by bands like kraftwerk who marketed themselves basically as robots.

So techno music develops from these roots, people start to call themselves model 500, cybotron, drexciya, labels are called 'm-plant' , 'metroplex' etc.

a lot of the prototechno has roots in other kinds of music like funk and electro (eg cybotron's 'clear', drexciya's 'bubble metropolis', etc).

some of these records were imported to europe, particularly britain, germany, and the netherlands. detroit techno producers and deejays became celebrities in europe and went unrecognized in the united states.

eventually europeans started to create their own detroit techno and detroit producers also collaborated with european producers. European techno pioneers might be cristian vogel, kirk degiorgio, laurent garnier... and basic channel.

basic channel (aka mark ernestus & moritz von oswald) was a project begun in the early 90s that brought the techniques of dub music production to techno music production. mark ernestus and mvo had been purveyors and collectors of dub and reggae music for some time (if you do some reading about dub you will read about those cross-atlantic currents as well). they brought the ideas of soundscape, fracture, delay and reverberation as employed in dub music to the production of techno music. They released a lot of original material on their various labels and opened up a really important record store and mastering/cutting plant in Berlin. Additionally, they connected with other detroit artists like Carl Craig (coming in the third wave of producers nearly a decade after the originators) and released tracks in the united states on craig's label as well.


There are a ton of other branches of techno as well - the storm rave techno of brooklyn played by frankie bones and joey beltram descended from the 909-heavy efforts of jeff mills, etc. This in turn provoked an entire branch of electronic music that branched recursively..

I generally prefer to look at techno as a sort of attitude or position on music rather than a specific set of formal requirements for sound. This position is characterized by the controlling presence of the machine, particularly the rhythm machine, and the alien sonic worlds it allows humans to experience, rather than the usage of the machine to reproduce something that is not alien but already human. Be aware that this is a purist sentiment Also, as he has made it clear in the past, SYSTEM-J does not agree with this outlook on music at all.

The farther we get from the origins of techno, the more it becomes codified into a set of formal requirements for sound, however. in other words - people are making techno a certain way because it sounds like techno should sound. The techno you hear today is second-third-fourth generation, variations on the theme. There is a lot of in-breeding with other genres as well. Acid techno in the early 90s, Tech House in the 90s, today we see this kind of minimal glitch techno infused house music, and there is dubstep-infused techno as well.

Re: Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec ok - first of all - gui boratto has little to do with villalobos has little to do with juan atkins in a nutshell (ps i am abbreviating and generalizing to make this concise, so don't take this for the complete truth) techno was birthed in detroit, by a generation of suburban detroit kids (most of them african-american) who grew up listening to deejays like the electrifying mojo and the hot mix five out of chicago. these deejays would play forward thinking electronic music like tangerine dream, kraftwerk, moroder, herbie hancock, parliament funkadelic etc. the detroit kids were also aware of what was going on with house music in chicago at the time, hearing ron hardy playing proto-house music produced with drum machines. some of these kids got a hold of drum machines and started making music with them. then they began to mythologize what they were doing, reading books like alvin toffler's 'future shock'. at this time, lots of people were doing related things - house music was basically disco remade with drum machines, electro was funk remade with drum machines, hip hop was funk remade with turntables, etc. techno became music of the drum machine itself, almost like an alien music - this is why it was so easy to mythologize. Additionally, many of the early detroit producers were influenced by bands like kraftwerk who marketed themselves basically as robots. So techno music develops from these roots, people start to call themselves model 500, cybotron, drexciya, labels are called 'm-plant' , 'metroplex' etc. a lot of the prototechno has roots in other kinds of music like funk and electro (eg cybotron's 'clear', drexciya's 'bubble metropolis', etc). some of these records were imported to europe, particularly britain, germany, and the netherlands. detroit techno producers and deejays became celebrities in europe and went unrecognized in the united states. eventually europeans started to create their own detroit techno and detroit producers also collaborated with european producers. European techno pioneers might be cristian vogel, kirk degiorgio, laurent garnier... and basic channel. basic channel (aka mark ernestus & moritz von oswald) was a project begun in the early 90s that brought the techniques of dub music production to techno music production. mark ernestus and mvo had been purveyors and collectors of dub and reggae music for some time (if you do some reading about dub you will read about those cross-atlantic currents as well). they brought the ideas of soundscape, fracture, delay and reverberation as employed in dub music to the production of techno music. They released a lot of original material on their various labels and opened up a really important record store and mastering/cutting plant in Berlin. Additionally, they connected with other detroit artists like Carl Craig (coming in the third wave of producers nearly a decade after the originators) and released tracks in the united states on craig's label as well. There are a ton of other branches of techno as well - the storm rave techno of brooklyn played by frankie bones and joey beltram descended from the 909-heavy efforts of jeff mills, etc. This in turn provoked an entire branch of electronic music that branched recursively.. I generally prefer to look at techno as a sort of attitude or position on music rather than a specific set of formal requirements for sound. This position is characterized by the controlling presence of the machine, particularly the rhythm machine, and the alien sonic worlds it allows humans to experience, rather than the usage of the machine to reproduce something that is not alien but already human. Be aware that this is a purist sentiment Also, as he has made it clear in the past, SYSTEM-J does not agree with this outlook on music at all. The farther we get from the origins of techno, the more it becomes codified into a set of formal requirements for sound, however. The techno you hear today is second-third-fourth generation, variations on the theme. There is a lot of in-breeding with other genres as well. Acid techno in the early 90s, Tech House in the 90s, today we see this kind of minimal glitch techno infused house music, and there is dubstep-infused techno as well.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak you are going to need a scarf.

too hot to wear my scarf today

quote:

Originally posted by Scoops Start with Dave Clarke

and end with him

Older Umek's works are the way to go.

Hertz

http://www.psnz.net/arhiva/

quote:

Originally posted by basd http://www.psnz.net/arhiva/

who are these guys?

Gr��vskoopa live-sets

Nice one basdeee

Robert Hood , Richie Hawtin and Daniel Bell for minimalism.

Re: Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec ok - first of all - gui boratto has little to do with villalobos has little to do with juan atkins in a nutshell (ps i am abbreviating and generalizing to make this concise, so don't take this for the complete truth) techno was birthed in detroit, by a generation of suburban detroit kids (most of them african-american) who grew up listening to deejays like the electrifying mojo and the hot mix five out of chicago. these deejays would play forward thinking electronic music like tangerine dream, kraftwerk, moroder, herbie hancock, parliament funkadelic etc. the detroit kids were also aware of what was going on with house music in chicago at the time, hearing ron hardy playing proto-house music produced with drum machines. some of these kids got a hold of drum machines and started making music with them. then they began to mythologize what they were doing, reading books like alvin toffler's 'future shock'. at this time, lots of people were doing related things - house music was basically disco remade with drum machines, electro was funk remade with drum machines, hip hop was funk remade with turntables, etc. techno became music of the drum machine itself, almost like an alien music - this is why it was so easy to mythologize. Additionally, many of the early detroit producers were influenced by bands like kraftwerk who marketed themselves basically as robots. So techno music develops from these roots, people start to call themselves model 500, cybotron, drexciya, labels are called 'm-plant' , 'metroplex' etc. a lot of the prototechno has roots in other kinds of music like funk and electro (eg cybotron's 'clear', drexciya's 'bubble metropolis', etc). some of these records were imported to europe, particularly britain, germany, and the netherlands. detroit techno producers and deejays became celebrities in europe and went unrecognized in the united states. eventually europeans started to create their own detroit techno and detroit producers also collaborated with european producers. European techno pioneers might be cristian vogel, kirk degiorgio, laurent garnier... and basic channel. basic channel (aka mark ernestus & moritz von oswald) was a project begun in the early 90s that brought the techniques of dub music production to techno music production. mark ernestus and mvo had been purveyors and collectors of dub and reggae music for some time (if you do some reading about dub you will read about those cross-atlantic currents as well). they brought the ideas of soundscape, fracture, delay and reverberation as employed in dub music to the production of techno music. They released a lot of original material on their various labels and opened up a really important record store and mastering/cutting plant in Berlin. Additionally, they connected with other detroit artists like Carl Craig (coming in the third wave of producers nearly a decade after the originators) and released tracks in the united states on craig's label as well. There are a ton of other branches of techno as well - the storm rave techno of brooklyn played by frankie bones and joey beltram descended from the 909-heavy efforts of jeff mills, etc. This in turn provoked an entire branch of electronic music that branched recursively.. I generally prefer to look at techno as a sort of attitude or position on music rather than a specific set of formal requirements for sound. This position is characterized by the controlling presence of the machine, particularly the rhythm machine, and the alien sonic worlds it allows humans to experience, rather than the usage of the machine to reproduce something that is not alien but already human. Be aware that this is a purist sentiment Also, as he has made it clear in the past, SYSTEM-J does not agree with this outlook on music at all. The farther we get from the origins of techno, the more it becomes codified into a set of formal requirements for sound, however. in other words - people are making techno a certain way because it sounds like techno should sound. The techno you hear today is second-third-fourth generation, variations on the theme. There is a lot of in-breeding with other genres as well. Acid techno in the early 90s, Tech House in the 90s, today we see this kind of minimal glitch techno infused house music, and there is dubstep-infused techno as well.

Thanks for taking time and giving such a insightful reply on the roots of techno. The first part I understood about how it was made, the trans-atlantic movement to Europe and the whole drum-machine evolution.

When dub first appeared was it an own genre before techno arrived, a genre that was latter applied to the old-school drum-machine sounds (in a very literary way)? The same, is minimal an own genre or are these terms bound by the major terms of music such as "techno" & "house" and how can one get deeper knowledge on what is specific for dub & minimal?

Thanks again.

Re: Re: Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney Thanks for taking time and giving such a insightful reply on the roots of techno. The first part I understood about how it was made, the trans-atlantic movement to Europe and the whole drum-machine evolution. When dub first appeared was it an own genre before techno arrived, a genre that was latter applied to the old-school drum-machine sounds (in a very literary way)? The same, is minimal an own genre or are these terms bound by the major terms of music such as "techno" & "house" and how can one get deeper knowledge on what is specific for dub & minimal? Thanks again.

OK first of all, Dub is a type of music that originated in the 60s, the first studio-centric music, where the production engineer became the artist and the mixing console became the instrument. The remix as we know it was invented by dub engineers.

Dub techno is not dub. Dub techno borrows production techniques from dub and a general aesthetic and attitude about sound (the soundscape, mystery, rhythm/riddim, etc)

I wouldn't really consider 'dub techno' to be a genre when it first arrived on the scene. It was a stylistic and conceptual variant of detroit techno. Minimal techno was also a stylistic and conceptual variant. Pioneered by people like Robert Hood, and adapted by cool-hunters like Richie Hawtin, minimalism was also a production aesthetic and set of techniques for stripping down both the sound and the production of detroit techno.

When you are talking about early techno, there is only really techno.

It's only later on, for instance, today, where we can talk and talk about 'dub techno' and 'minimal techno', because over time, people became so obsessed with certain stylistic variants that they began to copy older stuff and produce new stuff with these styles in mind. It changes from being produced as an experiment and becomes produced by convention. When many people produce things out of the convention over and over again, genre starts to appear as an epiphenomenon (byproduct)

That being said, the conventions change over time. What was called 'minimal' in the early 90s is certainly not the same as what is called minimal today. If you give old-school listeners a so called 'minimal' set today, chances are they will tell you it sounds like bad house music. Dub techno today is also very different from its origins. Basic Channel were more interested in applying the dub techniques to create soundscapes out of techno. Today's generic dub techno producers tend to simply copy the basic channel sound, which results in a lot of things that are hardly worthy of the name 'dub'. That's not to say no one is using dub techniques, or that it's some righteous way to make techno, I'm just trying to clarify the usage of the term 'dub techno'.

In the end I think what makes dub techno and minimal techno is their tradition and attitude towards production and sound (as opposed to the form of sound). You can't classify them by surface things such as tempo or how squeaky a sound is, or if there is an echo, or what they guy's name is, or how many scarves he is wearing.

I personally think it comes with attitude/intent, and if the producer is good enough, the intent manifests itself. You can feel/hear the intent if you listen to a lot of it. This is a purist attitude, however, so be wary of that. I don't like to throw music in categories. I would prefer to say something like "X track comes from the dub techno tradition of basic channel and the minimalism of robert hood"

To get specific knowledge of this, there is no book that identifies patterns like the calls of a bird or the shape of leaves on a tree. You have to listen to a lot and distinguish yourself. Take note of the labels, when the tracks were produced, etc.

a good starting point to get into detroit techno might be kevin saunderson's xmix:

http://www.discogs.com/Kevin-Saunde...io/release/2857

if you like that style, a newer mix that might interest you is robert hood's fabric 39 compilation:

http://www.discogs.com/Robert-Hood-...release/1313823

both mixes are fun and give a quite good insight.

i'm sorry to correct you, adam, but there was techno in germany before basic channel the first techno parties here were held in berlin in 1989 after the wall came down with tanith, dr. motte, wolle xdp, dj rok and so on. they started the whole thing in germany. to get an overview what ernestus & von oswald then did, you can choose one of the compilations they did. i'd recommend BCD 1 (http://www.discogs.com/Basic-Channe...release/1074329), it is relaxed and pretty diverse (i think the m series compilation is not that accessible).

if you on the other hand feel that you somehow like the housey stuff more, a good starting point might be ricardo villalobos. he got infamous for producing half-our-long tracks and a lot of scarf-wearing wannabes talk bullshit about him, but he is actually one of the few decent djs and producers in that genre who think a lot about what they are doing. i can recommend his taka taka mix: http://www.discogs.com/Ricardo-Vill.../release/158932

the latest developments in "techno" music come from berlin/london/bristol and are crossovers between techno and dubstep. interesting artists from berlin would be ben klock, marcel dettmann, shed, t++ and some other guys. recommendations: http://www.discogs.com/Ben-Klock-One/release/1589108 and http://www.discogs.com/Marcel-Dettm...release/1366160. keywords: berghain (THE club in berlin, made of concrete, architecture corresponds to the sound aesthetic) and hardwax (THE record store, with online shop http://hardwax.com/). this is my current favorite "subgenre".

but remember, opposed to trance, usually the artists/records/compilations are not advertised very much, you have to dig for the good stuff. but if you do so, im 100% sure you will find something you REALLY like

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec OK first of all, Dub is a type of music that originated in the 60s, the first studio-centric music, where the production engineer became the artist and the mixing console became the instrument. The remix as we know it was invented by dub engineers. Dub techno is not dub. Dub techno borrows production techniques from dub and a general aesthetic and attitude about sound (the soundscape, mystery, rhythm/riddim, etc) I wouldn't really consider 'dub techno' to be a genre when it first arrived on the scene. It was a stylistic and conceptual variant of detroit techno. Minimal techno was also a stylistic and conceptual variant. Pioneered by people like Robert Hood, and adapted by cool-hunters like Richie Hawtin, minimalism was also a production aesthetic and set of techniques for stripping down both the sound and the production of detroit techno. When you are talking about early techno, there is only really techno. It's only later on, for instance, today, where we can talk and talk about 'dub techno' and 'minimal techno', because over time, people became so obsessed with certain stylistic variants that they began to copy older stuff and produce new stuff with these styles in mind. It changes from being produced as an experiment and becomes produced by convention. When many people produce things out of the convention over and over again, genre starts to appear as an epiphenomenon (byproduct) That being said, the conventions change over time. What was called 'minimal' in the early 90s is certainly not the same as what is called minimal today. If you give old-school listeners a so called 'minimal' set today, chances are they will tell you it sounds like bad house music. Dub techno today is also very different from its origins. Basic Channel were more interested in applying the dub techniques to create soundscapes out of techno. Today's generic dub techno producers tend to simply copy the basic channel sound, which results in a lot of things that are hardly worthy of the name 'dub'. That's not to say no one is using dub techniques, or that it's some righteous way to make techno, I'm just trying to clarify the usage of the term 'dub techno'. In the end I think what makes dub techno and minimal techno is their tradition and attitude towards production and sound (as opposed to the form of sound). You can't classify them by surface things such as tempo or how squeaky a sound is, or if there is an echo, or what they guy's name is, or how many scarves he is wearing. I personally think it comes with attitude/intent, and if the producer is good enough, the intent manifests itself. You can feel/hear the intent if you listen to a lot of it. This is a purist attitude, however, so be wary of that. I don't like to throw music in categories. I would prefer to say something like "X track comes from the dub techno tradition of basic channel and the minimalism of robert hood" To get specific knowledge of this, there is no book that identifies patterns like the calls of a bird or the shape of leaves on a tree. You have to listen to a lot and distinguish yourself. Take note of the labels, when the tracks were produced, etc.

Thanks again for clarifying these things. Finally...any current artists suggestions you would to share? I assume old artists/tracks are hard to find.

quote:

Originally posted by alexf i'm sorry to correct you, adam, but there was techno in germany before basic channel the first techno parties here were held in berlin in 1989 after the wall came down with tanith, dr. motte, wolle xdp, dj rok and so on. they started the whole thing in germany. to get an overview what ernestus & von oswald then did, you can choose one of the compilations they did. i'd recommend BCD 1 (http://www.discogs.com/Basic-Channe...release/1074329), it is relaxed and pretty diverse (i think the m series compilation is not that accessible).

yeah, i don't think i said that basic channel invented german techno - just dub techno. i pointed out cristian vogel, kirk degiorgio, laurent garnier - dr motte is another european techno pioneer of that caliber for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by PSi who are these guys?

Some personal favourites.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec yeah, i don't think i said that basic channel invented german techno - just dub techno. i pointed out cristian vogel, kirk degiorgio, laurent garnier - dr motte is another european techno pioneer of that caliber for sure.

okay okay i just wanted to point out that the starting shot here already was in 1989. the german magazine "groove" is actually celebrating 20 years of techno in the current issue, a nice opportunity to look back and sum up how everything developed. they interviewed guys like wolle xdp (organized the first real techno parties in berlin), obviously sven v�th, laurent garnier, tanith, steve beckett (the founder of warp records) and some other guys. they even printed a photo of paul van dyk dancing at the 1992 love parade with a pullover saying "super spud". times have changed...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trying to learn more about techno

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney Thanks again for clarifying these things. Finally...any current artists suggestions you would to share? I assume old artists/tracks are hard to find.

not as hard as you think. most of the basic channel catalog is on beatport.

as far as new stuff goes, i think some of the berghain scene is making good techno, not necessarily ground-breaking but good techno nonetheless

peter van hoesen, norman nodge, marcel dettman

shed is making great music.

mortiz von oswald still produces (half of basic channel)



however, i will defer to others here, because i really follow house more than techno. i could recommend older things but not really new things.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Robert Hood , Richie Hawtin and Daniel Bell for minimalism.

he isnt asking about "mnml"

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