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6 months from the largest tax increases in history

Hide your money in the sock drawer. We are so fucked starting in January. Pretty much everyone will be affected. I leave you with these choice quotes, before proceeding to the facts that will send our economy over the cliff:

quote:

Under the Obama plan, the typical family will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. Any and all charges that Obama would raise rates on capital gains, dividends, income, savings and so on for the approximately 98% of American families making less than $250,000 are simply not true.

-Obama's campaign website

quote:

If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you will not see a single dime of your taxes go up. Not one dime. If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down.

-October 7th, 2008 (the first of many times)


So, here's the bad news:


First Wave: Expiration of 2001 and 2003 Tax Relief

Personal income tax rates will rise:
The top income tax rate will rise from 35 to 39.6 percent (this is also the rate at which two-thirds of small business profits are taxed). The lowest rate will rise from 10 to 15 percent. All the rates in between will also rise. Itemized deductions and personal exemptions will again phase out, which has the same mathematical effect as higher marginal tax rates. The full list of marginal rate hikes is below:

- The 10% bracket rises to an expanded 15%
- The 25% bracket rises to 28%
- The 28% bracket rises to 31%
- The 33% bracket rises to 36%
- The 35% bracket rises to 39.6%

Higher taxes on marriage and family:
The �marriage penalty� (narrower tax brackets for married couples) will return from the first dollar of income. The child tax credit will be cut in half from $1000 to $500 per child. The standard deduction will no longer be doubled for married couples relative to the single level. The dependent care and adoption tax credits will be cut.

The return of the Death Tax:
This year, there is no death tax. For those dying on or after January 1 2011, there is a 55 percent top death tax rate on estates over $1 million. A person leaving behind two homes and a retirement account could easily pass along a death tax bill to their loved ones.

Higher tax rates on savers and investors:
The capital gains tax will rise from 15 percent this year to 20 percent in 2011. The dividends tax will rise from 15 percent this year to 39.6 percent in 2011. These rates will rise another 3.8 percent in 2013.


Second Wave: Obamacare

Over 20 new or higher taxes as part of Obamacare, garnering over $500 billion from working families. They include:

The �Medicine Cabinet Tax�:
Thanks to Obamacare, Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

The �Special Needs Kids Tax�:
This provision of Obamacare imposes a cap on flexible spending accounts (FSAs) of $2500 (Currently, there is no federal government limit). There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap will be particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children. There are thousands of families with special needs children in the United States, and many of them use FSAs to pay for special needs education. Tuition rates at one leading school that teaches special needs children in Washington, D.C. (National Child Research Center) can easily exceed $14,000 per year. Under tax rules, FSA dollars can be used to pay for this type of special needs education.

The HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike:
This provision of Obamacare increases the additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent.
Rest can be seen here:
http://www.atr.org/obamacare-taxes-final-tab-a4744



Third Wave: The Alternative Minimum Tax and Employer Tax Hikes


When Americans prepare to file their tax returns in January of 2011, they�ll be in for a nasty surprise�the AMT won�t be held harmless, and many tax relief provisions will have expired. The major items include:


The AMT will ensnare over 28 million families, up from 4 million last year:
According to the left-leaning Tax Policy Center, Congress� failure to index the AMT will lead to an explosion of AMT taxpaying families�rising from 4 million last year to 28.5 million. These families will have to calculate their tax burdens twice, and pay taxes at the higher level. The AMT was created in 1969 to ensnare a handful of taxpayers.

Small business expensing will be slashed and 50% expensing will disappear:
Small businesses can normally expense (rather than slowly-deduct, or �depreciate�) equipment purchases up to $250,000. This will be cut all the way down to $25,000. Larger businesses can expense half of their purchases of equipment. In January of 2011, all of it will have to be �depreciated.�

Taxes will be raised on all types of businesses: There are literally scores of tax hikes on business that will take place. The biggest is the loss of the �research and experimentation tax credit,� but there are many, many others. Combining high marginal tax rates with the loss of this tax relief will cost jobs. There are 48 pages of taxes to be raised here---> http://www.jct.gov/publications.htm...artdown&id=3646

Tax Benefits for Education and Teaching Reduced.
The deduction for tuition and fees will not be available. Tax credits for education will be limited. Teachers will no longer be able to deduct classroom expenses. Coverdell Education Savings Accounts will be cut. Employer-provided educational assistance is curtailed. The student loan interest deduction will be disallowed for hundreds of thousands of families.

Charitable Contributions from IRAs no longer allowed.
Under current law, a retired person with an IRA can contribute up to $100,000 per year directly to a charity from their IRA. This contribution also counts toward an annual �required minimum distribution.� This ability will no longer be there.

Source: http://www.atr.org/files/files/0701...an2011taxes.pdf


Everyone will be affected, not just those making over $250K. The engine of economic growth, small businesses which create 80% of our jobs, is about to be crushed. Do the math: According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, federal pay exceeds private sector pay by 83% now in comparable jobs. We've lost around 7 million jobs since 2008. Government jobs, which are funded by the private sector, have increased 30% in the same period. Translation: we are economically fucked, as the malaise period during Jimmy Carter's administration will feel like the roaring 20's.

January 2011... the purposeful creation of a permanant and majority underclass of dependants (and thus Democrat voters) will begin to take a firm hold. You heard it here first.

How do you pay down the national debt without raising taxes?

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Stalin How do you pay down the national debt without raising taxes?

lol spoken like a true Democrat. I can't believe you're really asking that question. There are a variety of tried and true methods; you know full well that if you decrease the tax burden (especially corporate and capital gains taxes) real stimulation of investment and growth will occur. If businesses have incentive to hire, they add more people to the payrolls, thus having more individuals paying taxes. More people paying taxes, even at a lower rate, means more money going to the federal government to pay down the debt. It's practically a law of physics that taxing an activity depresses that activity. We now have the highest corporate tax in the world, and capital gains is about to go up 160% in January; this will kill investment incentive.


Cutting the out of control spending would also help, obviously, as would ending the destructive existences of public sector Unions. Unions have destroyed the economies of Michingan, California, New York, and Illinois. They have hundreds of billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the taxpayer is on the hook for. You saw what happened in Greece, right? Same thing. We are constantly asked to do with less, while government salaries soar and their yearly raises always increase... even now while shit is bad.

And, spending all our bogus stimulus money that basically went to unemployment benefits, undeserving companies, and to Unions was a huge mistake. As Rick Santelli points out so clearly:

quote:

The notion of stimulus is you want capital in the system, but when you have artificial stimulus, you give capital to the people that aren't really creating an expansive employment scenario or creating something that's actually positive for a society. What you end up doing is putting capital to businesses that on their own couldn't get capital and that's for a reason. The market didn't allocate it because they didn't deserve it.

Today's report that unemployment is at 9.5% is very misleading... because an additional 650,000 people are so defeated, they have given up on job searches and have left the labor force- those people are no longer counted as "unemployed" once that happens. The U6, or, underemployment rate where you basically have people working part time with no benefits out of sheer desperation is between 17-22%. Anyone with an economic brain would see that nothing is really being done to help grow the economy. Therefore you must conclude that it's being done by design, (in my opinion- and several others) to create a majority of people dependant on government. It is a fact that the longer people take unemployment handouts, the less likely they are to be motivated to go back to work on their own. Stretching them out from 72 to 99 weeks... now trying again now to stretch it another 6 months on top of that? 2.5 years of handouts? I mean, seriously. And why would the charitable donation deduction also be cut? What's the purpose of that? The only logical reason would be so more people depend on government.

not that i disagree hugely with anything you've written kev, but cutting taxes won't stimulate the economy if people are out of work and have nothing to spend in the first place, and businesses won't invest more if they don't have the number of consumers to justify it. i agree though that raising taxes in today's climate isn't going to help.

i wouldn't wanna in charge of the US economy for all the money in the world. you've got a debt burden which makes spending any money in this recession seriously problematic, yet not spending money could be even worse.

conservatives have a real quandry imo because they can't complain about the debt then lambast any attempts to raise taxes, and they can't complain about a recession and then criticise attempts to stimulate the economy through government spending. spending has a bigger impact on GDP than cutting taxes.

shit's all fucked up.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN conservatives have a real quandry imo because they can't complain about the debt then lambast any attempts to raise taxes, and they can't complain about a recession and then criticise attempts to stimulate the economy through government spending.

I don't think anyone's told them this just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss lol spoken like a true Democrat. I can't believe you're really asking that question. There are a variety of tried and true methods; you know full well that if you decrease the tax burden (especially corporate and capital gains taxes) real stimulation of investment and growth will occur. If businesses have incentive to hire, they add more people to the payrolls, thus having more individuals paying taxes. More people paying taxes, even at a lower rate, means more money going to the federal government to pay down the debt. It's practically a law of physics that taxing an activity depresses that activity. We now have the highest corporate tax in the world, and capital gains is about to go up 160% in January; this will kill investment incentive.

We lowered taxes big time, and look what happened. Deficits soared under a so-called fiscally conservative Republican administration. I'd actually like to see a national flat sales tax, with all other taxes abolished. But since our democratic system allows the minority party to throw a monkey wrench in any meaningful reform, we have to work with what we have, which is a mixed economy. After this crisis, and the Great Depression, there will be a huge faction that see government as the answer. With that in mind, and that very faction in power, we are not going to be paying down the deficit by lowering taxes.

quote:

Cutting the out of control spending would also help, obviously, as would ending the destructive existences of public sector Unions. Unions have destroyed the economies of Michingan, California, New York, and Illinois. They have hundreds of billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the taxpayer is on the hook for. You saw what happened in Greece, right? Same thing. We are constantly asked to do with less, while government salaries soar and their yearly raises always increase... even now while shit is bad. And, spending all our bogus stimulus money that basically went to unemployment benefits, undeserving companies, and to Unions was a huge mistake. As Rick Santelli points out so clearly: Today's report that unemployment is at 9.5% is very misleading... because an additional 650,000 people are so defeated, they have given up on job searches and have left the labor force- those people are no longer counted as "unemployed" once that happens. The U6, or, underemployment rate where you basically have people working part time with no benefits out of sheer desperation is between 17-22%. Anyone with an economic brain would see that nothing is really being done to help grow the economy. Therefore you must conclude that it's being done by design, (in my opinion- and several others) to create a majority of people dependant on government. It is a fact that the longer people take unemployment handouts, the less likely they are to be motivated to go back to work on their own. Stretching them out from 72 to 99 weeks... now trying again now to stretch it another 6 months on top of that? 2.5 years of handouts? I mean, seriously. And why would the charitable donation deduction also be cut? What's the purpose of that? The only logical reason would be so more people depend on government.

I don't particularly like the Teacher's Unions who make our public schools the laughing stock of the first world. I can only imagine the other unions negative effect on government policy.

===============================================================

Kevin, there is something you must recognize here. The so-called, free market, fiscally conservative, Republican party of the last 8 years failed miserably. Their laissez-faire, pro-big business, de-regulatory, low tax policies failed. The tide of history has therefore, logically, shifted to the other side of the spectrum. All the solutions you outlined were exactly the policy of the Bush Administration. You can't expect the next administration to follow that lead when it clearly didn't work. You have witnessed a shift in government policy, from right to left, which after 8 years of Bush, can only be seen as a logical shift. Obama wasn't voted into office to continue Bush's policies. You know that. America voted for a leftist president knowing full-well what they would get. And any country that would vote for the same party responsible for ballooning deficits, two un-paid wars, and a collapsing economy, is a country that doesn't deserve my respect.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN conservatives have a real quandry imo because they can't complain about the debt then lambast any attempts to raise taxes, and they can't complain about a recession and then criticise attempts to stimulate the economy through government spending. spending has a bigger impact on GDP than cutting taxes. shit's all fucked up.

Well this is true... although real conservatives like myself abandoned Bush and the RINO's after their detachment from the very principles they got elected on. Only if they acknowledge the mistakes they made and show by example that they will not continue down that path can they be forgiven. What they did is being exponentially magnified by the people in power now... so, if what Bush and his team did was fucked up, what does that say about the current administration? The perfect example is the new governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie. He's the first dude I've seen in a long time that ran on fiscal responsibility and is actually doing what he said he'd do: absolutely refusing to raise Jersey's massive tax burden in any way, while making the necessary cuts in spending that will lead to balancing the state's budget.

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Stalin We lowered taxes big time, and look what happened. Deficits soared under a so-called fiscally conservative Republican administration.

Yes, we did... and aside from having an unemployment rate between 4.5 and 5% during Bush's tenure, more tax dollars went to the Federal Government than at any point in history. Deficits soared, as you correctly point out, at first... and then you can see the trend each year heading towards balance. Look for yourself at this motherfucker of a graph:

quote:

But since our democratic system allows the minority party to throw a monkey wrench in any meaningful reform, we have to work with what we have, which is a mixed economy.

This statement is very misguided. Please tell me what meaningful reform has the GOP stopped in the last 18 months. The minority party cannot do anything right now. They don't have the votes, and haven't had the votes to stop anything. Every single idea presented by fiscally responsible members of the GOP (Paul Ryan for example) is not even considered... if they aren't physically locked out of the discussions like they were over healthcare. You have to get off that talking point that the GOP are to blame right now for our fiscal crisis. If the Democrats wanted to push through something that could honestly help, it would be easy as pie. I agree with you about having a single flat tax... it would supercharge the economy all by itself... which is why the government is opposed to it.

quote:

After this crisis, and the Great Depression, there will be a huge faction that see government as the answer. With that in mind, and that very faction in power, we are not going to be paying down the deficit by lowering taxes.

That's correct... because what's happening is by design; by human nature, people will incrementally give up bits and pieces of their liberty for someone to step in and quell the chaos; that someone being the only entity powerful enough to do so: government. And they know this. But government is actually not benevolent, nor does it have our best interests at heart. The power players do what they have to do to stay in power and grow. They never "tighten their belt", no matter how horrible the economic times are. This is why if the tax-and-spenders stay in power, they'll never lower taxes for any reason.

quote:

Kevin, there is something you must recognize here. The so-called, free market, fiscally conservative, Republican party of the last 8 years failed miserably. Their laissez-faire, pro-big business, de-regulatory, low tax policies failed. The tide of history has therefore, logically, shifted to the other side of the spectrum. All the solutions you outlined were exactly the policy of the Bush Administration. You can't expect the next administration to follow that lead when it clearly didn't work.

I agree- they failed miserably and deserved to be ousted from power. But they did not fail because of the principles of conservatism, which works every time its tried. They failed because they became what they most despised. And I'm all for regulation, but proper regulation. Our authoritarian, out of control super-state poses a regulatory burden on America now that costs us $1.2 trillion annually. Consider the following:
-3,503 new regulations took place last year.
-Regulatory costs absorb 8.3% of domestic GDP.
-Regulations + spending combined puts the federal government's share of the economy at over 30%.
-Regulations cost more than income tax!
-New rules that cost at least $100 million increased by 13% between 2007 and 2008.
http://cei.org/news-release/2010/04...eral-regulation

quote:

You have witnessed a shift in government policy, from right to left, which after 8 years of Bush, can only be seen as a logical shift. Obama wasn't voted into office to continue Bush's policies. You know that. America voted for a leftist president knowing full-well what they would get. And any country that would vote for the same party responsible for ballooning deficits, two un-paid wars, and a collapsing economy, is a country that doesn't deserve my respect.

Again, I agree- Republicans needed a swift kick in the ass and to be thrown out on their asses. Bravo to that. But the pendulum swung way too far in the other direction. We desperately need it to come back the other way a bit.

But I disagree that America knew what they were getting. Unfortunately, so many of them were grossly uninformed (and economically illiterate); Bush derangement syndrome was enough to vote for anybody... only now is the buyers remorse setting in, and the evidence of this is Chris Christie in New Jersey, Scott Brown in Massachusetts, Bob McDonnell in Virginia, and the tidal wave of Democrat losses coming in November's election. If this was what America wanted, Obama and the Democrats would be more popular than ever right now.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss so, if what Bush and his team did was fucked up, what does that say about the current administration?

Bush wasn't facing an economic calamity during 7 of his 8 years of epic spend-a-thon.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Yes, we did... and aside from having an unemployment rate between 4.5 and 5% during Bush's tenure, more tax dollars went to the Federal Government than at any point in history. Deficits soared, as you correctly point out, at first... and then you can see the trend each year heading towards balance. Look for yourself at this motherfucker of a graph:

The huge increase isn't the Obama administration going wild on the government credit card. They are following the Roosevelt model, albeit, not satisfactorily in my opinion. I would have liked to see something like the Hoover Dam being built by now. Stimulus my ass. With the economy as it is, the government isn't going to be lowering taxes in the face of such a huge deficit. The government cannot count on the economy rising to the point in which tax revenues also increase.

quote:

This statement is very misguided. Please tell me what meaningful reform has the GOP stopped in the last 18 months. The minority party cannot do anything right now. They don't have the votes, and haven't had the votes to stop anything. Every single idea presented by fiscally responsible members of the GOP (Paul Ryan for example) is not even considered... if they aren't physically locked out of the discussions like they were over healthcare. You have to get off that talking point that the GOP are to blame right now for our fiscal crisis. If the Democrats wanted to push through something that could honestly help, it would be easy as pie. I agree with you about having a single flat tax... it would supercharge the economy all by itself... which is why the government is opposed to it.

I mean both sides of the aisle really. Look at China. They have no democracy and because of that, decision making is really fucking simple for them. For us, we have a long drawn out, petty bickering for months on end, only to get watered down legislation/reform. The Chinese also just has a huge real estate bubble, but they didn't collapse like we did. Why? They keep their banking system on lock-down. No prop trading desks or derivatives schemes. When their economy overheats, the Chinese government took drastic action. What did we do? Greenspan didn't do a damn thing other than raise interest rates to curb our bubble. Bush didn't do anything either. They saw this bubble as good. Why stop it if a record number of people now own homes and the Dow Jones is at 14,000? Case in point, our democratic system is a hulky, disfunctional, quagmire, and it's unfortunate that an authoritarian communist government is pwning us in just about every category except military hardware. What does it say when our biggest asset is the military, and not say, the best education system in the world? How sad.

quote:

That's correct... because what's happening is by design; by human nature, people will incrementally give up bits and pieces of their liberty for someone to step in and quell the chaos; that someone being the only entity powerful enough to do so: government. And they know this. But government is actually not benevolent, nor does it have our best interests at heart. The power players do what they have to do to stay in power and grow. They never "tighten their belt", no matter how horrible the economic times are. This is why if the tax-and-spenders stay in power, they'll never lower taxes for any reason.

When the private sector fails, government must step in. When unemployment is 20%, how can one continue to still believe that the economy should be "left alone"? Again, I would have liked stimulus money to have bankrolled something like a Hoover Dam, but nooooo...

quote:

I agree- they failed miserably and deserved to be ousted from power. But they did not fail because of the principles of conservatism, which works every time its tried. They failed because they became what they most despised. And I'm all for regulation, but proper regulation. Our authoritarian, out of control super-state poses a regulatory burden on America now that costs us $1.2 trillion annually. Consider the following: -3,503 new regulations took place last year. -Regulatory costs absorb 8.3% of domestic GDP. -Regulations + spending combined puts the federal government's share of the economy at over 30%. -Regulations cost more than income tax! -New rules that cost at least $100 million increased by 13% between 2007 and 2008. http://cei.org/news-release/2010/04...eral-regulation

Funny, when regulators fail because of a complex regulatory framework, they make it even more complex with more regulations! We need some like a Glass-Steagall. Simple rules that apply to everyone and hardly need some regulator applying faulty subjective judgment on a company based on complex garbage.

quote:

Again, I agree- Republicans needed a swift kick in the ass and to be thrown out on their asses. Bravo to that. But the pendulum swung way too far in the other direction. We desperately need it to come back the other way a bit.

Ah, the law of equilibrium. Bush was pretty fucking right wing. It was pretty much expected that we would get a president that was as leftist as Bush was right wing.

quote:

But I disagree that America knew what they were getting. Unfortunately, so many of them were grossly uninformed (and economically illiterate); Bush derangement syndrome was enough to vote for anybody... only now is the buyers remorse setting in, and the evidence of this is Chris Christie in New Jersey, Scott Brown in Massachusetts, Bob McDonnell in Virginia, and the tidal wave of Democrat losses coming in November's election. If this was what America wanted, Obama and the Democrats would be more popular than ever right now.

America wanted another Roosevelt. Obama is the closest thing to that, albeit, not enough for me anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Bush wasn't facing an economic calamity during 7 of his 8 years of epic spend-a-thon.

Our economy went into supersonic turmoil when 9/11 happened. We recovered a lot faster than anticipated.

quote:

I mean both sides of the aisle really. Look at China. They have no democracy and because of that, decision making is really fucking simple for them. For us, we have a long drawn out, petty bickering for months on end, only to get watered down legislation/reform. The Chinese also just has a huge real estate bubble, but they didn't collapse like we did. Why? They keep their banking system on lock-down. No prop trading desks or derivatives schemes. When their economy overheats, the Chinese government took drastic action. What did we do? Greenspan didn't do a damn thing other than raise interest rates to curb our bubble. Bush didn't do anything either. They saw this bubble as good. Why stop it if a record number of people now own homes and the Dow Jones is at 14,000? Case in point, our democratic system is a hulky, disfunctional, quagmire, and it's unfortunate that an authoritarian communist government is pwning us in just about every category except military hardware. What does it say when our biggest asset is the military, and not say, the best education system in the world? How sad.

Although this does make sense, we are not an authoritarian dictatorship (at least not yet, but Obama's doing his best to change that as much as he can). And my money says you'd be cool with Obama emulating China's model, but if a Republican became president you'd quickly be screaming for the ugly democratic process. It's supposed to be ugly and complicated for a reason- so that one person doesn't have the ability to become drunk with power and change everything as he sees fit. It pains me when leftists extoll the virtues of China's communist government. There are virtually no human rights there, working conditions are horrible, free speech is crushed, government controlls all information that gets out, and pollution is beyond your worst nightmares. Take a look at this photo essay of just that atrocity---> http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21...ution-in-china/

quote:

When the private sector fails, government must step in. When unemployment is 20%, how can one continue to still believe that the economy should be "left alone"?

The private sector's failings are not solely based on their doings. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE's, and just as much to blame.

quote:

Funny, when regulators fail because of a complex regulatory framework, they make it even more complex with more regulations! We need some like a Glass-Steagall. Simple rules that apply to everyone and hardly need some regulator applying faulty subjective judgment on a company based on complex garbage.

Haha... +1. Legislators do what they know how to do: make laws. More and more of them, slowly strangling a business' ability to function. As a business owner yourself, just wait man- you'll begin to see shit from a totally different angle.

quote:

Ah, the law of equilibrium. Bush was pretty fucking right wing. It was pretty much expected that we would get a president that was as leftist as Bush was right wing.

Correction: he "was" pretty right wing. Until he became a big spender, grew the size of government, pushed for amnesty in 2007, and basically abandoned several of his principles. By the time he left office, he was almost at John McCain linguini spine moderate levels.

quote:

America wanted another Roosevelt. Obama is the closest thing to that, albeit, not enough for me anyways.

Most Americans lack the understanding of what Roosevelt really did. The eradication of the American historical memory is in full force. I mean, shit man, there was a Marist poll the other day showing how 26% of us don't even know who we're celebrating our independence from! American's just knew they didn't want another Bush or Republican for that matter, and ran the other direction too far. It's like the teenage girl who breaks up with her strait laced boyfriend and then goes out with the dropout sporting tatoos and 47 piercings. Eventually, they'll be a regression to the mean. (hint: this november )

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Our economy went into supersonic turmoil when 9/11 happened. We recovered a lot faster than anticipated.

The cause of that problem had nothing to do with economics. Of course things recovered relatively well.

There's no logical reason why the US/Greece/*insert failed state* ran fiscal deficits during the boom years - not when private indebtedness was at its stupidly high levels.

Before the GFC Australia (plus a select few countries) ran fiscal surpluses, allowing it to have zero federal debt - allowing the government to spend up when the going got tough. This saved Australia a shit load.. This is exactly what didn�t happen in all those countries that are shitting bricks right now.. High public debt + high private debt = FUBAR

The17sss, the problem with your idea of cutting taxes as an economic stimulus is that it ignores the beautiful law of diminishing marginal returns.. Like your humble corner store, every conglomerate and bureaucratic behemoth is bound by these simple laws. Just as the local store should cut the price of a widget to attract more customers/revenue/profit � so they can expand etc � there is a certain point when doing exactly that is counterproductive and leads to losses. But that's okay, it's an easy and common mistake to make - most democratic countries have made that exact mistake recently.
It�s inherent in the design of a democracy that isn�t accountable to a bottom line, but rather a vote � where people want low taxes and high level of service.
I agree, stop spending money on bullshit wars, stupid bailouts and �stimulus� on failures and you go a long way in solving your problems - too bad that special interests always get in the way.

i really enjoy your posts here Dupz, its a shame we dont get to hear from you more often.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss lol spoken like a true Democrat. I can't believe you're really asking that question. There are a variety of tried and true methods; you know full well that if you decrease the tax burden (especially corporate and capital gains taxes) real stimulation of investment and growth will occur. If businesses have incentive to hire, they add more people to the payrolls, thus having more individuals paying taxes. More people paying taxes, even at a lower rate, means more money going to the federal government to pay down the debt. It's practically a law of physics that taxing an activity depresses that activity. We now have the highest corporate tax in the world, and capital gains is about to go up 160% in January; this will kill investment incentive.

BULL SHIT

Where are your numbers? Where are your sources?

1. I want to see corporate tax levels around the world if you are making this claim. State by state data svp.

2. Taxes still need to be paid by someone. Hiring extra workers just so they can pay taxes cost a lot more than just plain paying them.

3. I think it's too late. The world knows that money that gets trapped in the US is going to basically go to paying off debt, money's going to start going out of the US. I wouldn't want to be stuck with cash there.

quote:

Cutting the out of control spending would also help, obviously, as would ending the destructive existences of public sector Unions. Unions have destroyed the economies of Michingan, California, New York, and Illinois.

MINC

quote:

They have hundreds of billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the taxpayer is on the hook for. You saw what happened in Greece, right? Same thing. We are constantly asked to do with less, while government salaries soar and their yearly raises always increase... even now while shit is bad.

Ok, once again BULL SHIT

The public sector isn't the problem in the US. I will refer to the June 2010 Z1 report on this one:

Q1 2010 - Debt held by:

Households = 13,542,200,000,000
Business = 10,921,000,000,000
Finance = 14,971,200,000,000
Federal Govenment = 8,166,900,000,000
State and Local Government = 2,379,900,000,000

Total = 49,981,200,000,000

about 50 trillion $

Table D.3 of:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/relea.../Current/z1.pdf


Comparatively, US GDP 2009

15 trillion $

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...sources/GDP.pdf

quote:

And, spending all our bogus stimulus money that basically went to unemployment benefits, undeserving companies, and to Unions was a huge mistake. As Rick Santelli points out so clearly: Today's report that unemployment is at 9.5% is very misleading... because an additional 650,000 people are so defeated, they have given up on job searches and have left the labor force- those people are no longer counted as "unemployed" once that happens. The U6, or, underemployment rate where you basically have people working part time with no benefits out of sheer desperation is between 17-22%. Anyone with an economic brain would see that nothing is really being done to help grow the economy. Therefore you must conclude that it's being done by design, (in my opinion- and several others) to create a majority of people dependant on government. It is a fact that the longer people take unemployment handouts, the less likely they are to be motivated to go back to work on their own. Stretching them out from 72 to 99 weeks... now trying again now to stretch it another 6 months on top of that? 2.5 years of handouts? I mean, seriously. And why would the charitable donation deduction also be cut? What's the purpose of that? The only logical reason would be so more people depend on government.

What we are seeing is the unraveling of a system that is a large scale ponzi scheme. Using the Z1 data it is clear that the US in general has been trying to use the same 'tax cuts will bring prosperity' mentality for 35 years.

This is a false notion.

Since 1975 US debt has grown exponentially while US output has grown linearly.

For every $100 invested in the US $10 has been produced ... for 35 years.

The world is going to take a while digesting this because in essence the prosperity of the past 35 years just plain wasn't ... it never was. We were tricked.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Our economy went into supersonic turmoil when 9/11 happened. We recovered a lot faster than anticipated.

eat it, mmmm tastes good that spoon fed tripe.

The economy hasn't recovered and it's going to get worse. Stop jumping at the daily, weekly or monthly data and look at the big picture. Start by trying to figure out what happens when the US has to pay 1-3% more on bond issues and go from there.

quote:

Although this does make sense, we are not an authoritarian dictatorship (at least not yet, but Obama's doing his best to change that as much as he can). And my money says you'd be cool with Obama emulating China's model, but if a Republican became president you'd quickly be screaming for the ugly democratic process.

Here's a fun US cultural trait, inability to recongnize the value in studying the other. China, Europe, Russia, South America, and even Africa have really valuble lesscons for the US to learn. Just because a system is studied and the good things are poached and applied doesn't mean that it is being emulated. I don't think anyone of sound mind would argue that any system, from anywhere around the world at any time in recorded history, should be coppied and applied to the US as it is today. That just plain doesn't work.

quote:

It's supposed to be ugly and complicated for a reason- so that one person doesn't have the ability to become drunk with power and change everything as he sees fit. It pains me when leftists extoll the virtues of China's communist government. There are virtually no human rights there, working conditions are horrible, free speech is crushed, government controlls all information that gets out, and pollution is beyond your worst nightmares. Take a look at this photo essay of just that atrocity---> http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21...ution-in-china/

Oh, a photo essay, how cute. China is evil, how bad, how monsterous.

The Chinese system is far from perfect, everyone should know that, but China owns the US ... oops. Does that make the US a slave state?

quote:

The private sector's failings are not solely based on their doings. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE's, and just as much to blame.

BULL SHIT

The private sector is in much worse health that the US government. As noted, the government owes about half of what US households / finanace owe, and less than what business owes.

Suck it up, it's not the government that is the problem but the people themselves have tied thier own noose.

quote:

Haha... +1. Legislators do what they know how to do: make laws. More and more of them, slowly strangling a business' ability to function. As a business owner yourself, just wait man- you'll begin to see shit from a totally different angle.

see above.

quote:

Correction: he "was" pretty right wing. Until he became a big spender, grew the size of government, pushed for amnesty in 2007, and basically abandoned several of his principles. By the time he left office, he was almost at John McCain linguini spine moderate levels.

This is like saying that a killer was pretty evil but stopped eating his victims so that's better.

The only countries that are as conservative and anal as the US are Iran, North Korea, and Saudi.

FACT: Conservatives always loose. Why, because they hold on to something that was and time just keeps moving forward. Oh, they did well from about 400 AD to 1400 AD but then there was this whole literacy thing that showed up.

FACT: Most serial killers are conservatives who have trouble accepting change or loose morals. Please don't get mad, just addapt.

quote:

Most Americans lack the understanding of what Roosevelt really did. The eradication of the American historical memory is in full force. I mean, shit man, there was a Marist poll the other day showing how 26% of us don't even know who we're celebrating our independence from! American's just knew they didn't want another Bush or Republican for that matter, and ran the other direction too far. It's like the teenage girl who breaks up with her strait laced boyfriend and then goes out with the dropout sporting tatoos and 47 piercings. Eventually, they'll be a regression to the mean. (hint: this november )

I agree with this point but would argue that the source of the problems is misplaced.

Education has suffered dramatically in the US. People have looked to getting credentials to get jobs and lifestyle but education is only effective if it is learning.

The resulting assult on education that began in about the 80s has left a set of rubber stamp institutions which have inflated marks to keep thier funding / enrollment up. It's no surprise that a number of the American heroes of recent time are school dropouts. They realized that they were paying for credentials and that thier time would be better invested in produceing than looking for worthless paper.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell FACT: Conservatives always loose. Why, because they hold on to something that was and time just keeps moving forward. Oh, they did well from about 400 AD to 1400 AD but then there was this whole literacy thing that showed up. FACT: Most serial killers are conservatives who have trouble accepting change or loose morals. Please don't get mad, just addapt.

What the fuck is this nonsense? You just destroy credibility with completely asinine statements like this. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell BULL SHIT Where are your numbers? Where are your sources? 1. I want to see corporate tax levels around the world if you are making this claim. State by state data svp. 2. Taxes still need to be paid by someone. Hiring extra workers just so they can pay taxes cost a lot more than just plain paying them. 3. I think it's too late. The world knows that money that gets trapped in the US is going to basically go to paying off debt, money's going to start going out of the US. I wouldn't want to be stuck with cash there. MINC Ok, once again BULL SHIT Blah blitty blah blah blah.......

You're a fucking idiot who knows nothing of economics. I run a goddamn company- I understand how it works. If raising taxes was the solution, how come New Jersey, for example, is ever deeper in the red after taxes had been raised 115 times in the past 5 years? If your rationale worked, they'd be in the black. WITHOUT RAISING TAXES, Chris Christie already cut an $11 billion portion of the state deficit into zero by cutting wasteful spending, and freezing public sector union pay... not cutting it, just not allowing another raise like they constantly demand, even while the rest of the private sector suffers.

Good lord! When has it ever worked? Where's your memory of history? Life didn't start during Bill Clinton's presidency. How about after Jimmy Carter got booted out of office, with 12% unemployment, economic malaise, gas lines, inflation out the ass, and a top marginal tax rate of 70%!? Reagan steadily lowered that tax burden and BOOM... 20 million jobs created in 8 years and economic growth like crazy.

It's so fucking simple- as I explained before, if you have more people employed, you have more people paying taxes.. even at a lower rate, more people paying into the system bring more revenue to the government. How do you employ more people? Well, when people and businesses have more disposable income NOT confiscated by taxation, they hire, they invest, they expand businesses, they have more discretionary spending they use... the economy grows. Hello! European economic stagflation for the past 25 years as taxes rise and welfare benefits increase. If you sit down with CEO's and actual business owners, instead of listening to David Axelrod or whichever academic elite gives you a boner, you might learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss You're a fucking idiot

No your the fucking idiot and I thought you were going to leave, but I guess much like your Conservative heros who say 1 thing and do the opposite- ie:Rush who was going to leave (health care).

How did that Iraq war go? Hmm I recall them "Conservatives" saying the oil would pay for everything, but much like the locals greeting us with flowers & open arms, the truth wasn't that way.

WMD, gee "Conservatives" said they were there- but nope, add in Bush joking they must be under here... real tasteful.

""Conservatives" teabaggers crying about the Constitution but never said boo under Bush... hmm why not?

Just what have you so-called ""Conservatives" done that was good for everybody and not the upper 1-3%? ?

Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true.

~July 15, 1979.

Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny.

In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying �That�s enough of that!�.
Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.

____________________________

Now I know why I stop reading this forum, fucking idiots like YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by Dale Gribble Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true. ~July 15, 1979. Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny. In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying �That�s enough of that!�. Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.

Did you seriously just quote Jimmy Carter? Damn. But I like how things are taken out of context and spoon fed in such a sinister manner. But nonetheless, it opens an important discussion. If Reagan cut tax credits for renewable energy research, 1) I'm glad to see a government that attempts to reduce its expenses instead of increasing them. The Government is not a good steward of the public's money. 2) Is it the role of government to provide tax breaks and incentives for things that are not necessarily within the conventional definition of what a government should and should not do? (i.e. promote the general welfare, provide for the common defense, ensure that rights are protected, etc.?) When you phrase it like you did (that Reagan cut funding for programs), you convey it in a sense that Reagan killed an entire industry--that without tax credits an industry cannot exist; that demand does not beget market-based solutions...

I am a free markets guy, no shame in that. I sincerely believe that when there is a public need, there is a private solution that will most likely be a more efficient solution than a bureaucratic government sponsored one. I want private companies to make profits and for tax rates to be low because I believe that enabling people to keep more of their own money for their own discretionary use is more positive over the long-term than confiscating more and more wealth for the sake of welfare programs, special interests and government boondoggles. I believe that a more vibrant and healthy private sector will generate more in tax revenues over the long-term that can be used to fund the programs that a government should be pursuing.

Philosophy aside, that's my 2c. There's a difference between an invisible hand and an activist hand.

Regarding Iraq, I'm sure you caught this from Biden on Politico today.

quote:

Biden sees Iraq success for Obama By: Mike Allen July 5, 2010 09:13 AM EDT BAGHDAD � Vice President Joe Biden said after a three-day trip to Baghdad that the American people will see President Barack Obama�s Iraq policy as a success when the �combat mission� ends on schedule Aug. 31. Biden said the administration �will be able to point to it and say, �We told you what we�re going to do, and we did it.�� �I think America wins,� Biden told POLITICO in an end-of-trip interview at the ambassador�s residence in the sprawling U.S. Embassy complex. �I sound corny, but I think America gets credit here in the region. And I think everybody gets credit, from George Bush to [President Obama]. �I think Americans will recognize that there aren�t body counts ... that they got 95,000 people home. That will be noticeable that they�re home." The chief purpose of Biden�s visit was to prod Iraqi politicians to form a government and end a four-month stalemate that followed parliamentary elections. The vice president said security in the country �doesn�t really relate to whether there�s a government formed or not.� �The government that is the interim government now � a little like our interregnum period between November and January � is actually functioning in terms of security,� he said. �I am hopeful � I am confident � that in the relatively near term, they�re going to be able to work out an agreement on ... the new government.� Biden said he hopes a resolution will come �by the end of the summer and maybe even considerably sooner.� But he added with a smile, �That�s like trying to decide when the Senate�s going to pass health care: They did it, but it� took a while. Biden said improved conditions in Iraq will bolster Democrats with voters in November. �They are going to take a look and see that the president kept his promise getting troops home, which will give them more confidence in the foreign policy he set,� Biden said.

Cheers.

We didn't win in Iraq. What did we get? Nothing. So what if Iraq is a democracy? Sun Tzu said it best. "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." There is no victory when the costs are so high. I for one, won't allow anyone to call our adventure in Iraq a "victory" because it isn't. It's one huge tragedy.



I really wish the Pentagon would have followed this line...

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." -Sun Tzu

quote:

Originally posted by Dale Gribble No your the fucking idiot and I thought you were going to leave, but I guess much like your Conservative heros who say 1 thing and do the opposite- ie:Rush who was going to leave (health care). Just what have you so-called ""Conservatives" done that was good for everybody and not the upper 1-3%? ? Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true. ~July 15, 1979. Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny. In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying �That�s enough of that!�. Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%. ____________________________ Now I know why I stop reading this forum, fucking idiots like YOU.

Man look at your lack of emotional stability. The truth is, I bet, that you stopped reading this forum because you don't believe in diversity of thought, and when people with alternative opinions to your spoon fed liberal arts and/or worthless public school education make you doubt yourself, you lash out. You people are all the same; someone points out truthful realities about life and how business works in the real world outside of politics, and you take it personal... not because you have valid experience to base this on, no... but because your fragile ego can't handle it. History, facts, and logic mean nothing to people like you. You are content to keep robbing the Treasury to pay for unicorns and fairy dust.

I mean seriously, like Shakka said, you quoted Jimmy Carter for fuck's sake! This is the same guy who's bold tax funded initiative in June 1979 said we'd have 20% of our power coming from solar by the year 2000. And don't blame it not working on Reagan. Clinton introduced the "Million Solar Roofs Initiative" in 1997 that was going to do the same thing by 2010. Get it through your thick skull: Only the free market can deliver "green" solutions. No amount of government central planning, "free" money for solar power and wind farms can create new sources of energy, and it will take decades to do so even at nominal returns.

Couple of quick rebuttal points to your post, before I laugh myself to sleep.

1) Rush never said he was moving/leaving the country if healthcare passed; only that he would fly elsewhere to pay for his own healthcare procedures if and when the quality of State run healthcare decreases.

2) Jimmy Carter's quote about energy independence is full of irony... because we import more oil from abroad now than we did back then, and the only reason we can't be energy independant is because of the bans Democrats and radical enviornmentalists (your ilk) have put in place. We are forcing ourselves, needlessly, to get it from somewhere else.

3) You're a dumb fucking idiot.

the governement has been in debt for a long, and it is only with the current crisis and the sudden drop in tax revenue that it has made the situation more public than ever before.

No one wants to tbe the bad guy and increase taxes because that means losing votes; but people are morons because they don't see further than their wallets.

Yes it's painful paying more taxes, but it's not just a socialist thing as so many people put it. It's an economic reality. States populations grow and with that the costs of operating them.

Too many low tax incentives has had such perverse effects on the governement because the need for money is still there, so there has been constant shuffling of funds between agencies, and resale of governement real estate(fairgrounds, capitols, prisons) etc to make a fast buck.

Today states are having to cut back on everything because there is no tax money coming in. States that are reducing school days to 4 instead of 5 ... or cutting back on basic needs to make things work like roads, fire, police etc.

Everyone is so blinded by being exclusively short sighted that we have not had the outlook necessary to avoid the current crash and burn situation.

Did you guys know we still haven't paid off the debt from the Louisiana Purchase of 1803? 1803 bonds are still outstanding! You can also buy bonds outstanding from World War I if you wanted to. Case in point. This country was built on debt, and debt isn't necessarily a bad thing. Of course, too much debt is a bad thing.

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