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Creation without knowledge
Hey there. I just watched this video. As you will notice it isn't about music at all. But at the end they came to speak about creation, and this is what got me thinking about music. I don't know if you will understand much if you don't watch the whole thing though.
For me it was really inspiring, and I think it can help a musician to look at the whole thing from a different angle. Especially if you are trapped in the technical aspects of production, it might give your creativity a boost. It certainly did for me.
At the end they came to the question, does creation involve knowledge?
Invention does, but does creation?
Have you ever been in a flow where you feel like the music is writing itself? Like you just get the ideas from somewhere else? I sometimes have been thinking about music creation like laying a invisible puzzle. Everything is already there, you just need to get the pieces right.
So even if your not watching the video. What do you think? Does creation need to involve knowledge or is there something beyond?
Is there a cliff notes version of this discussion? I was only able to tolerate the first 5min, then I went back to working w/Geist.
When I bought my first MPC along w/an MC303 a long, long time ago... I was creating w/out knowledge. I knew how to play an instrument, and read music... but had now clue how to write music. I didn't know what a chord progression was, or the difference between a major or minor chord. So I spent a lot of time inspired to create, but poking around in the dark trying to come up w/the most basic things related to harmony. I was super slow at laying down tracks, and my execution was crappy to put it mildly. -but I did like the ideas, I just didn't have the knowledge required to get it down correctly.
Now that I actually know something. (and have Geist) I'm a million times happier, and at least 2 million times more productive than I was back then, even tho I really put in a lot of hours (pretty much every spare second of my time) w/my MPC+MC-303 combo. It's like deja vu for me now. I'm fired up like I was back then, but now I have the knowledge I need in order to bring the rock.
So yeah, knowledge is good. I can't over state the fact that's helped me in more ways than I can imagine. Creation w/out knowledge = good luck, been there done that. Never again.
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| Originally posted by Robotrance This part is what keeps me from having any success too as I take shortcuts to get to goal, I like the artistry best and it's also where my talent lies. |
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| Originally posted by Richard Butler Thing is lets say you ordered a special cake for your GF, and I as a 'creative' baker delivered you something that had artistry and flair but was executed badly, say with burned edges and a soggy bottom, what would you think? Is artistry only about the 'fun' bit, or are all the mundane details part and parcel of the artistry, not other than it? |
That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative shit for the last 10 years with shit mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the fuck out.
Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward.
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| Originally posted by Kthought That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative shit for the last 10 years with shit mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the fuck out. Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward. |
Don't worry about breaking it to me, but thanks. I did just see a 16 year old asian kid on facebook discover that these american clowns dont produce their own songs or even arrange their own radio shows... I saw myself 9 years ago being fuckin heartbroken over finding out tiesto was a fraud (and peeling the custom sticker off my subaru.) It still broke my heart, i still reached out a heartfelt "trance is a *insert idealistic view*" comment for him. It begs at the fact that even though some people don't have any idea there's a difference, putting on a facade for money isn't right.
If i never learned how to use the mixer, id have no records signed and that would be a bummer. But, i would still have these archives of loops samples, and ideas that make my producers journey 100% organic and unique. My closest peers know that "Airborne Aluminum" is a skullcrusher, because crazy shit happens when you cram way way too much synthesized high frequencies into cubase SX3's busses.
Creation is creation. When you're signed to a label and remixing a contemporary house song, and sending it off for mixdown in the same day, i would say that's not creation, that's more like working. (which is 100% cool, a desirable situation) This discussion was more about creation, and to properly discuss creation is to mute all inferences of commerce.
And no, I don't have a steady dayjob in music, but want one.
How is doing a track in one day not creative? Some people just work faster than others; a useful term you might not know is 'alla prima,' an Italian term for a painting that is finished in a single setting.
If you're working in a specific genre (trance, techno, etc.) it helps a lot to listen to tracks of a similar style you're trying to produce and come up with a similar structure in your mixdown.
Oh, and all creation is "work," regardless. The more you do it, the more experience and knowledge you gain, just like you would, and should, at any job.
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| Originally posted by SherlockCrash Have you ever been in a flow where you feel like the music is writing itself? Like you just get the ideas from somewhere else? |
It is pretty subjective, but i definitely understand the idiom, and it circles me back to this point not being worth finding. The intent drive will be unique to each and every one of us.
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| Originally posted by Kthought i would say that's not creation, |
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| Originally posted by Kthought utter bullshit here, it is too creation. i guess the intentions are different? this shit is hard. and i'm not a perfect communicator. |
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| Originally posted by Kthought That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative shit for the last 10 years with shit mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the fuck out. Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward. |
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| Originally posted by AlphaStarred Yes, they're heightened moments of inspiration, to use the cliche. It happens more often the more time you spend working. Any artist would agree on this, I think. |
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| Originally posted by SherlockCrash I'm not trying to validate anything, I'm writing this so that maybe someone starting out will think about it and take it into consideration before getting stuck in the technical bit of production, which seems pretty common and will probably affect the possibilities to push the boundaries and be truly unique. We are influenced with what we come in contact with all the time. And if you start your journey by reading tons on forums, watching tutorials and copy other peoples work I think there is a big risk that the "natural" influences, collected earlier in life will be buried beneath this one might say forced influence. It's just something I've been thinking about. It's the way I choose, for me it was the only way. I don't know if it was right or wrong, I have been struggling with the technical stuff and still do, don't know if I ever will get my stuff to sound as loud and clean as todays standard. I hope I will, but if not I at least have some tunes I've made that I enjoy listening to myself. Not to say that I stopped listening to music, it's just that I didn't want to dive to deep into other peoples work before I got a steady ground to stand on, that I could call my own. |
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| Originally posted by DJ RANN I think we all know what you're getting and it's the old argument of the technical aspects sucking the life out of free flowing creation etc, but honestly, if the technical bit pisses you off so much, or is destroying the creative part, then just get someone else to engineer for you. I actually used to say similar things as you a long time ago, but I realized that you have to truly know the rules to actually break them. If you don't it's just flailing in the dark. |
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| Originally posted by SherlockCrash That doesn't necessary have to be true. Sometimes it can be good to take some time off to get some new inspiration. |
You can't come up with your own, unless you are a genius, without knowing what has already been done.
Knowledge informs creativity. To speak to my own non-musical pursuits, I'm a chef. The more that I know, in a technical sense, about how to approach ingredients--how they react to heat and cold, how to use my knives, how things taste under what circumstances--the more granular I can be with my creativity, and the more able I am to make food that is not only delicious but also explores relatively new ground. Knowing, for example, the exact tempuratures at which egg whites and yolks coagulate (they're different; around 58C for whites and 63C for yolks, depending on various factors) gives me a lot more information about how to use them in dishes, and how to achieve the effects I'm aiming for.
Yeah, outsider art is a thing and it shouldn't be sneezed at. At the same time, the more nuts-and-bolts technical knowledge you have about the thing you do, the more able you are to take creative leaps--because you know how to get where you want to go.
A lot of people who lack technical knowledge (in any discipline) tend to think that knowing more just hampers creativity because you have to think about it all the time. It is not so; the more you know, the more it becomes ingrained into your background. I don't need to think, for example, about the exact pH required for doing encapsulations of various liquids--I just know that below a certain number I'm going to need to add some acid to make it work properly, and that informs my creative process.
Aggressive ignorance about not needing to know rules--or, more accurately, not needing to know how things work--will only hamper you. Yes, it takes time and effort to learn these things, no question, but learning the technical foundations of whatever your creative discipline is can only help you to achieve what you are trying to achieve.
If you're doing something only for yourself, then sure, just go ahead and do whatever and screw what everyone else has learned before you and have the fun. If you want to present what you do to the world, if you want to engage with your creative medium in a deep way, you need to learn how it works. There's really no way around that. Unless, again, you're a genius at what you do--in which case, you're not going to be talking about it here, you're going to be actually doing it and gaining recognition.
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| Originally posted by deegee the more nuts-and-bolts technical knowledge you have about the thing you do, the more able you are to take creative leaps--because you know how to get where you want to go. |
Thanks, AlphaStarred.
It's like, say, playing any sport. Sure, some people are going to walk onto a sportsball court and have an instinctive knowledge and that's great.
The vast majority need to drill and drill and drill their skills to the point where they become instinctive--and that's where you get Jordan, for example. Naturally talented, and driven to continually improve his skills, and however many years later it is still a joy to look back and watch him in his prime because you're seeing pure creativity--that is, selecting from all the options available, without thinking about it, to get from A to B.
Learning how to mixdown (which I SUCK at) is no different. Some people have instinctive ears and that's great. Pretty much everyone else has to learn first. And absolutely EVERYONE benefits from learning more.
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| Originally posted by deegee And absolutely EVERYONE benefits from learning more. |
And now you don't have to think so hard about how to achieve the mixdown effect you want.
pushing a button. Wiping your ass. Knowledge. IF you think you don't create with a whole suitcase of biases rigid paradigms that one would call knowledge, you are just a little lacking in insight. I'm sure if we connected the dots, well go from the simplest task you do with conscious intent. That requires knowledge.
This is a silly argument framed with ridiculous terms that can't be quantified. Be more specific.
I realise now that the OP is misleading. What I've been talking about lately has actually nothing to do with the video or OP, it was a spin off from kthoughts post. So sorry if that confused any of you.
I think I can make it clear this way. degee, your Jordan example. He probably didn't start with an obsession with tactics and technique. My guess is that he started playing ball, for fun with he's mates. It probably took several years before he started to really dive into the technical aspects. He watched a lot of basket, and was influenced by the moves he saw. He learned those he wanted to learn, and when everything came together it was in a new way. He learned by doing, and experimentation.
This is a much better way of learning, than if he would have found an idol, and tried to copy him completely. He would then have became a copy, instead of something unique.
So what I say is, don't copy anyone particular. Find different things you like in different tunes and even genres. This is obvious to a lot of people. But not to everyone it seems.
I hope that makes it clear.
tldr
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