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Drum programming etc

Apologies if already a thread on this...

just bored here in work - wondering are most people doing their drums by midi still?

I think im missing out possibly, be sequencing everything by midi - i rarely do velocity edits, too time consuming i guess.

If i was programming in off some device like Push or Maschine then im thinking my drums would have more variation by default

I would also like to use Session mode more in Live and get some ideas going by just hitting Record and jamming around till i get something nice

So my question is, what are yis all using if not drawing in notes? Im thinking i might go for Push as i think its possible to get this working with Battery 4 - then again Maschine comes with some drum samples already, but im not really sure how that thing would integrate into Live

thoughts???

if you're talking about real drums it helps to have an instrument set up that will trigger different samples at different velocities

I have a lot of different ways of sequencing drums and it usually depends on the song style and the drum software that I'm using. My most common approach for electronica/EDM stuff is to use Battery 4 with Sonar's step sequencer and I usually just click the parts in, then do most of my variations using the velocity, timing, etc. tools (per-step) in the step sequencer.

Other times, I use Maschine with its factory/expansion libraries, or with Battery 4 inserted as a VST inside of Maschine, especially when I'm working in PT or Logic, which don't have a step sequencer. Then, I usually sequence the parts in Maschine's sequencer, drag the MIDI into my DAW, and do my looping, copying, editing, etc. in my DAW.

I use Stylus RMX a lot for filler loops using its own library/expansions, and many third party percussion REX's converted to RMX format. I usually use the Chaos Designer and its on-board FX to chop and mangle them, and layer them into the song.

I have a few drum synths (e.g., Tremor, Drumazon) that I use on occasion, mostly combined with other drum plugins for downtempo stuff. I usually forego their on-board sequences and just sequence them in my DAW's piano roll, or in Sonar's step sequencer. I have custom templates for my QuNeo for each of them, so I can play them, but I'll click them in with a mouse if I want them hard quantized.

For "real" drums (e.g., pop/rock, downtempo, DnB), I use Superior Drummer2, BFD2, and Steven Slate Drums. I'll sometimes start with their own factory grooves, or third-party grooves (e.g., Groove Monkey), since these are already performed/recorded in MIDI format by a real drummer, and I'll structure the song, fills, transitions, etc. If I'm using BFD2, I'll sometimes edit them directly in its own sequencer, but I usually drag them into my DAW for editing. I'll either edit them directly in my piano roll, or sometimes, I'll replay a part (esp. fills) using my QuNeo or Maschine.

And, last, I typically end up having individual drum samples directly on audio tracks, particularly one shots, like crash cymbals, weird percussion FX, etc. I keep a bunch of hand percussion in the studio and I'll occasionally record them and layer them into my songs (I did this on our submission for Colors v2).

Yes, I know that probably seems like way too many options, but that's how I work. I've used each of these drum instruments for a long time and know all of them very well. I also have custom project templates set up for every drum plugin for all of my DAWs, where the instrument is already inserted, each sound routed to its own audio return in my DAW, all routed to a drums bus, etc. I also have templates for my two drum controllers (Maschine and QuNeo) already instantiated for each drum plugin. So it's actually very quick for me to load whichever template I want, and start adding synths or recorded audio, and get straight to work on a song.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I have a lot of different ways of sequencing drums and it usually depends on the song style and the drum software that I'm using. My most common approach for electronica/EDM stuff is to use Battery 4 with Sonar's step sequencer and I usually just click the parts in, then do most of my variations using the velocity, timing, etc. tools (per-step) in the step sequencer. Other times, I use Maschine with its factory/expansion libraries, or with Battery 4 inserted as a VST inside of Maschine, especially when I'm working in PT or Logic, which don't have a step sequencer. Then, I usually sequence the parts in Maschine's sequencer, drag the MIDI into my DAW, and do my looping, copying, editing, etc. in my DAW. I use Stylus RMX a lot for filler loops using its own library/expansions, and many third party percussion REX's converted to RMX format. I usually use the Chaos Designer and its on-board FX to chop and mangle them, and layer them into the song. I have a few drum synths (e.g., Tremor, Drumazon) that I use on occasion, mostly combined with other drum plugins for downtempo stuff. I usually forego their on-board sequences and just sequence them in my DAW's piano roll, or in Sonar's step sequencer. I have custom templates for my QuNeo for each of them, so I can play them, but I'll click them in with a mouse if I want them hard quantized. For "real" drums (e.g., pop/rock, downtempo, DnB), I use Superior Drummer2, BFD2, and Steven Slate Drums. I'll sometimes start with their own factory grooves, or third-party grooves (e.g., Groove Monkey), since these are already performed/recorded in MIDI format by a real drummer, and I'll structure the song, fills, transitions, etc. If I'm using BFD2, I'll sometimes edit them directly in its own sequencer, but I usually drag them into my DAW for editing. I'll either edit them directly in my piano roll, or sometimes, I'll replay a part (esp. fills) using my QuNeo or Maschine. And, last, I typically end up having individual drum samples directly on audio tracks, particularly one shots, like crash cymbals, weird percussion FX, etc. I keep a bunch of hand percussion in the studio and I'll occasionally record them and layer them into my songs (I did this on our submission for Colors v2). Yes, I know that probably seems like way too many options, but that's how I work. I've used each of these drum instruments for a long time and know all of them very well. I also have custom project templates set up for every drum plugin for all of my DAWs, where the instrument is already inserted, each sound routed to its own audio return in my DAW, all routed to a drums bus, etc. I also have templates for my two drum controllers (Maschine and QuNeo) already instantiated for each drum plugin. So it's actually very quick for me to load whichever template I want, and start adding synths or recorded audio, and get straight to work on a song.

quote:

Battery 4 inserted as a VST inside of Maschine

thanks man - that sounds interesting - I will have to investigate this a bit further, could be exactly what im looking for!

For me, it is straight midi or samples that I take and completely retool them to my liking.
Variation is not my strength but making beats is. So, usually, I'll take a group of samples that Ive made (and I am known for spending days on creating samples so my singular percussion library is pretty big) and just sit there in session mode and depending on the bpm, I sometimes start with just a flamming cymbal line. For the most part that is where I get my "groove" from. Then it is just a straight kick and snare. All the additives like sub drops or impacts come later for me.

I do drums in MIDI, using Battery in Cubase or Drum Racks in Ableton. I'm alright on keys, so I record them and then clean up the MIDI with my mouse.

I've tried drum pads, but they don't have enough travel to record velocities accurately. Keys are much better in this regard. I also used GURU for a long time, but MIDI and step sequencers are really just the same thing.

I have to say that if you think velocity edits are too time consuming, then your drum programming is probably not very advanced. Note input is a pretty trivial part of the process; setting up all your choke groups, layers and so on takes way longer. I think you just gotta put in some more elbow grease.

Dave put me onto NERVE and I've pretty much just used that ever sense.
I tend to use NERVES own sequencer, just drawing in the events. Will quite often supplement this by playing in the notes from my synth keyboard.

Variation is something I spend a lot of time on but it can sap your energy a bit.

I will employ the odd loop to thicken things up where necessary.


Cubase 8 has a new drum machine I'm also using but it's a bit of a fuss and still badly designed and implemented imo.

Like Dave I also just drop in some sample shots straight into an audio track, and each of these I will manipulate by applying effects in sample editing - therefore no actual effects remain switched on after the sample has been altered with effects.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm I do drums in MIDI, using Battery in Cubase or Drum Racks in Ableton. I'm alright on keys, so I record them and then clean up the MIDI with my mouse. I've tried drum pads, but they don't have enough travel to record velocities accurately. Keys are much better in this regard. I also used GURU for a long time, but MIDI and step sequencers are really just the same thing. I have to say that if you think velocity edits are too time consuming, then your drum programming is probably not very advanced. Note input is a pretty trivial part of the process; setting up all your choke groups, layers and so on takes way longer. I think you just gotta put in some more elbow grease.

i think that my problem is when i get stuck into micro-editing drums i lose the feel of the track - hence my looking into something that gives me more variety in drum programming whilst not losing the flow of the whole thing?

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 looking into something that gives me more variety in drum programming whilst not losing the flow of the whole thing?

All you really get from different drum machines is some small workflow changes. I think you should start using your keyboard instead. That will make a much bigger difference to how you work. If you're not much good on keys it will probably be pretty retarded for a while, but it's the most efficient way to get the data in once you've become good at it.

Learn how to read drum sheet music (it's much more simple than you think), then start playing beats on your keyboard. These are good skills to have and it's a much better use of your time, rather than just learning a new drum machine that does basically the same thing only slightly differently.

Buzz rolls are really the only important thing you can't do properly on a keyboard. You can probably rig up aftertouch to do some neat stuff, but I've never bothered. I do split my keyboard in half over the same GM region though, so I can hit a drum with both hands for flams and stuff.

Any of you drummer types ever use something like the Roland OctaPads, Alesis, etc for playing your drums?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Any of you drummer types ever use something like the Roland OctaPads, Alesis, etc for playing your drums?

They're awesome. However, you really need two of them to cover a full kit. When you think of a standard 5 piece kit, you think 8 pads should easily cover that, but in reality it doesn't.

For example, the pads are very close together, so you end up needing separate pads for left/right snare/hat. That's 4 pads gone already. Then you also need open hats and rimshots/ghosts on each side, so you've already exhausted one entire OctaPad just on the snare and high hat. You can use a pedal to control the hats, but not many drum machines support that (Battery doesn't).

Similar problems exist elsewhere in a kit, such as choked crashes where you hit the cymbal and then immediately grab it with your hand to stop the noise. That's two pads just for your crash cymbal and we're not even getting into direct vs. sidestick hits!

get push...when youre ready to....no rush

I tempo export out of the logic arranger window then reimport so I can loop without the need of quantizing audio and copy and paste. Thats my workflow.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm I have to say that if you think velocity edits are too time consuming, then your drum programming is probably not very advanced. Note input is a pretty trivial part of the process; setting up all your choke groups, layers and so on takes way longer. I think you just gotta put in some more elbow grease.

That's the truth.


You don't have to program/perform/play all the variations/subtleties while you're trying to lay down a drum beat. Lay more tracks down (bass, keys, etc) and come back to the minutiae of drum programming later. Unless I know exactly what I want to do w/a beat, I save the nitty gritty for later. It helps me stay focused what what's important -laying down an idea/making a song. It usually helps me make up my mind as to what I'm going to do w/the beat when come back to it.

It's kinda like when I'm trying to lay down an idea. I know I'm going to use reverb. I may know that I want a medium room, or I may not. Maybe I just know I don't want a long hall reverb. So I just throw one on that's appropriate but I won't spend time clicking thru presets to find the perfect one... that's not a priority when I'm trying to lay down an idea. I can fuss over exactly what reverb and settings some other time.

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