Good..Why the f*ck should we spend money to defend Europe?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Good..Why the f*ck should we spend money to defend Europe?

or Afghanistan..

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle6838058.ece

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Barack Obama dismayed America's allies in Europe and angered his political opponents at home today when he formally ditched plans to set up a missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic. The project had been close to the heart of Mr Obama's predecessor, President Bush, who had argued before leaving office in January that it was needed to defend against long-range ballistic missile attacks from rogue states such as Iran and North Korea. But it had hobbled relations with Russia, which considered it both a security threat and an unnecessary political provocation in its own backyard. At a White House appearance today, Mr Obama confirmed that the defence shield envisaged by the Bush Administration, involving a radar base in the Czech Republic and interceptor rockets sited in Poland, was being abandoned. Instead, after a comprehensive review, he had decided to accept the advice of both the Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, and of the Chiefs of Staff opt for a "smarter, stronger and swifter" system involving both sea-based and land-based mobile interceptors. Mr Obama said that latest intelligence suggested that threat of long-range missile attacks from Iran had receded, but the threat of short- or medium-range attacks was a real one. He said that the system would be "phased and adaptive" and used proven technologies to create an effective missile defence system. In a briefing at the Pentagon, Mr Gates said that the new system could be operational six or seven years before the Bush-era shield would have come online, more effectively replying to future threats. The decision was relayed to the governments of the Czech Republic and Poland both by Mr Obama himself, in telephone calls last night, and by US officials visiting the region. The President assured both governments that the decision would not compromise their security. But it clearly prompted some dismay in Central and Eastern Europe, where the Bush plan had been seen as an effective guarantor of US support for the fledgling democracies of the old Soviet empire. It will also send a chill through Russia's neighbours. "This is not good news for the Czech state, for Czech freedom and independence," said Mirek Topolanek, the former Czech Prime Minister. "It puts us in a position where we are not firmly anchored in terms of partnership, security and alliance, and that�s a certain threat." Russia's Foreign Ministry said that it welcomed reports of the US decision but would wait for official confirmation before making a detailed response. A spokesman said: "Such a development would be in line with the interests of our relations with the United States." In his White House appearance, Mr Obama said that he had repeatedly made clear to Russia that its objections to the now-ditched missile defence programme had been "entirely unfounded". The decision to abandon one of Mr Bush's key foreign policy initiatives was quickly denounced by Mr Obama's Republican foes, who accused him of underestimating the threat posed by Iran and of undercutting America's allies in Europe. "The decision announced today by the Administration is dangerous and short-sighted," the No 2 Republican in the Senate, Jon Kyl, said in a statement. Mr Kyl said that the shift would leave the United States "vulnerable to the growing Iranian long-range missile threat" and would send a chilling message to former Soviet satellites who had braved Moscow�s anger to support the system. "This will be a bitter disappointment, indeed, even a warning to the people of Eastern Europe," said Mr Kyl, who pointed out that both Poland and the Czech Republic had sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. "Today the Administration has turned its back on these allies." Senator John McCain, Mr Obama�s defeated Republican White House rival in 2008, said he was "disappointed" with the decision and warned it could undermine US standing in Eastern Europe amid worries there of a resurgent Russia. "Given the serious and growing threats posed by Iran�s missile and nuclear programmes, now is the time when we should look to strengthen our defences, and those of our allies," he said in a statement. "Missile defence in Europe has been a key component of this approach. I believe the decision to abandon it unilaterally is seriously misguided."

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quote:

Originally posted by Brahman or Afghanistan..

or Canada...wait what?

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...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Cool, Russians now can fuck off.

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Crazy. It's not a coincidence either that Obama made the announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland... he's sending a message that he's so much unlike his predecessor, that he'll capitulate to anyone; by doing so he's letting the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. They must be laughing their asses off in the Kremlin right now. Ukraine, Poland, and other fledgeling eastern european democracies trying to escape Russian influence and control for decades are breathing a little easier today... just kidding. Russia already said they won't vote to sanction Iran, which would be the point of scrapping the sheild for Russia's approval. This just a few days after Iran said, "we won't stop our nuclear program" and France said, "yeah we know they're on schedule to make the bomb... we've known for some time now." Fucking Neville Chamberlain in the White House.

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Ironically, the Obama administration, which is appeasing Russia in the hopes that Moscow will help put pressure on Iran, has made this mammoth concession just a few days after Moscow declared that it had no intention of supporting sanctions against Iran. The consequences of this action in Eastern Europe, especially in Ukraine and in other countries that feel vulnerable to Russian power, will be disastrous. It is a major American retreat in the face of Russian bullying. And we will get absolutely nothing for it.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblo...ials_head_t.asp

It's not like they're saying "fuck you, you're on your own", Obama is giving them better intelligence through the upgraded interceptors. Besides, why should WE care about defending other countries, don't they have their OWN departments of defense?

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Originally posted by ziptnf It's not like they're saying "fuck you, you're on your own", Obama is giving them better intelligence through the upgraded interceptors. Besides, why should WE care about defending other countries, don't they have their OWN departments of defense?

Why should we care? In a nutshell, it serves our interests to be on good terms with foreign allies.

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Originally posted by The17sss Why should we care? In a nutshell, it serves our interests to be on good terms with foreign allies.

I agree completely, but did you not read the other part of my post?

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Instead, after a comprehensive review, he had decided to accept the advice of both the Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, and of the Chiefs of Staff opt for a "smarter, stronger and swifter" system involving both sea-based and land-based mobile interceptors.

We are already on good terms with Europe, it's not like they hate us for any reason. And we're still helping them out. I don't see what the big deal is.

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Originally posted by ziptnf We are already on good terms with Europe, it's not like they hate us for any reason. And we're still helping them out. I don't see what the big deal is.

because we are basically selling out the Poles and the Czechs to satisfy Russia's security concerns... and Russia has very little actual interest in giving a shit about the U.S.'s concerns. As the UK Times points out, Ukraine and Georgia's chances of entering Nato over Russian objections have diminished further. The timing is disastrous for Ukraine in particular, given the Kremlin's determination to reverse the pro-Western Orange Revolution and ensure victory for a pro-Russian candidate at presidential elections in January.

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Obama is giving them better intelligence through the upgraded interceptors.

uhhh...

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The White House has put out a �fact sheet� on their policy of Russian appeasement/missile defense surrender. The fact sheet says that the new approach � focusing on SM-3 and sea-based systems (presumably in Turkey) � will �augment our current protection of the U.S. homeland against long-range ballistic missile threats.� That is a lie. This system will provide zero, nada, zilch protection to the U.S. homeland, providing only defense against short- and medium-range missiles to Europe. The fact sheet says this system will protect �our Allies in Europe sooner and more comprehensively than the previous program, and involves more flexible and survivable systems.� That is a lie. The system that was being placed in Poland is already operational in Alaska. These new plans will now take years of negotations to implement and will necessarily be less survivable as they will not be underground. The fact sheet says that �The Czech Republic and Poland, as close, strategic and steadfast Allies of the United States, will be central to our continued consultations with NATO Allies on our defense against the growing ballistic missile threat.� That is a lie. The Czechs and Poles get a midnight phone call from the president while Tauscher is already in the air. They were not consulted with and have been given no assurances � because the president is selling them out. The fact sheet says, �We also welcome Russian cooperation to bring its missile defense capabilities into a broader defense of our common strategic interests.� If that�s true, our president is totally clueless about Russian capabilities and intentions � even Bush, who looked into Putin�s soul, was not so delusional as to think U.S. missile defense could be dependent on Russian good will and cooperation. How long til the Russians threaten to throw us out of our �joint� missile defense facilities in order to coerce us into staying out of an attack on Georgia or some other democratic state in their near abroad.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblo...missile_def.asp

the rest of that article has more good detail.

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Originally posted by The17sss Crazy. It's not a coincidence either that Obama made the announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland... he's sending a message that he's so much unlike his predecessor, that he'll capitulate to anyone; by doing so he's letting the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. They must be laughing their asses off in the Kremlin right now. Ukraine, Poland, and other fledgeling eastern european democracies trying to escape Russian influence and control for decades are breathing a little easier today... just kidding. Russia already said they won't vote to sanction Iran, which would be the point of scrapping the sheild for Russia's approval. This just a few days after Iran said, "we won't stop our nuclear program" and France said, "yeah we know they're on schedule to make the bomb... we've known for some time now." Fucking Neville Chamberlain in the White House. http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblo...ials_head_t.asp

Ah, so you wouldn't have a problem with the Russians putting a "missile defense" system in Cuba or Venezuela huh?

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