Back for 1 night only folks, 1 night.

Not trying to stir the political pot here but a couple of observations (and I'm curious what my liberal counterparts (Opus, are you out there?) think.

1) How the shape of foreign policy has changed over the last decade. During the Bush years it was the Neocons this, Neocons that...The GOP was actively engaged in aggressive, if not offensive foreign policy while the left wanted nothing to do with it (save for those brief moments after 9/11 when everybody was on the same team). Nowadays, with the rise of the Tea Party, more and more on the right are looking inward in more of an isolationist bent while the left is getting dragged more and more into activities outside our borders (Libya, Syria, Egypt etc).

2) Can we expound a bit on the hypocrisy of all of this with our dear leader Obama and his newly annointed Secretary of State, John Kerry? George Bush was a warmonger and a war criminal for acting unilaterally while the left bashed him and carried on about how he should be tried for war crimes and what not. Now, President Obama, once so critical of George Bush's foreign policy, has painted himself (and our country so to speak) into a corner with his little "red line" speech, and with Britain voting not to get involved, Obama is now in a position of acting unilaterally to take military action against another sovereign nation, potentially doing further damage to relationships with Russia and China (among others) along the way. What about the implications of a military conflict in the Middle East with Israel and Iran? Meanwhile, John Flipflopper Kerry, who was for the Bush wars before he was against them, has touted evidence of chemical attacks against Syrian citizens/rebels by Assad (though there is no conclusive evidence yet that Assad did it), leading the charge. The chemical attacks could've been strategically carried out by Russia for all we know (why would Assad do it? He was already winning the war and had more to lose by using chemical weapons while Russia would benefit from things like higher oil prices). And early reports were that our leaders were considering a military strike before the U.N. inspectors completed there inspections. Does any of this sound familiar??!?

So, just some food for thought. Do things ever change? It just looks like the tables have been flipped and Obama is as daft as ever. What say you (few people that even troll this website anymore)?

Cheers,
Shakka

Last edited by Shakka on Aug-30-2013 at 14:41

It's funny, I haven't lurked here in a few months, and so I stop by to see not just a post from Shakka, but I'm in it sorta!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Back for 1 night only folks, 1 night. Not trying to stir the political pot here but a couple of observations (and I'm curious what my liberal counterparts (Opus, are you out there?) think. 1) How the shape of foreign policy has changed over the last decade. During the Bush years it was the Neocons this, Neocons that...The GOP was actively engaged in aggressive, if not offensive foreign policy while the left wanted nothing to do with it (save for those brief moments after 9/11 when everybody was on the same team). Nowadays, with the rise of the Tea Party, more and more on the right are looking inward in more of an isolationist bent while the left is getting dragged more and more into activities outside our borders (Libya, Syria, Egypt etc).

Some definite truth in this. I think it speaks a lot to the old mantra that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Granted, there's major differences between Obama and Bush. But whether one wants to admit it or not, to me it's also undeniable that there's too many similarities as well, and foreign policy certainly falls under these similar ideals.

quote:

2) Can we expound a bit on the hypocrisy of all of this with our dear leader Obama and his newly annointed Secretary of State, John Kerry? George Bush was a warmonger and a war criminal for acting unilaterally while the left bashed him and carried on about how he should be tried for war crimes and what not.

True, but until Obama enters a war under false pretenses and outright lies about the rationale for entering the war (ex: remember the Downing Street memo, also read the New Yorker's Stovepipe and let's not forget about the Curveball informant), I think the comparison between the two under similar rationales is pretty weak at best. If anything, Obama has been fairly truthful about his motives for military action - i.e. getting and killing bin Laden, taking out al Quaeda, etc.

quote:

Now, President Obama, once so critical of George Bush's foreign policy, has painted himself (and our country so to speak) into a corner with his little "red line" speech, and with Britain voting not to get involved, Obama is now in a position of acting unilaterally to take military action against another sovereign nation, potentially doing further damage to relationships with Russia and China (among others) along the way. What about the implications of a military conflict in the Middle East with Israel and Iran? Meanwhile, John Flipflopper Kerry, who was for the Bush wars before he was against them, has touted evidence of chemical attacks against Syrian citizens/rebels by Assad (though there is no conclusive evidence yet that Assad did it), leading the charge. The chemical attacks could've been strategically carried out by Russia for all we know (why would Assad do it? He was already winning the war and had more to lose by using chemical weapons while Russia would benefit from things like higher oil prices). And early reports were that our leaders were considering a military strike before the U.N. inspectors completed there inspections. Does any of this sound familiar??!?

Yes it does. Incidentally, what's with all the hatred towards Kerry? He's merely following marching orders from above. Just sayin'.

As for Obama's actions, he has indeed boxed himself in a corner a bit. But he's doing a fairly decent job of slowly trying to wiggle his way out by exercising a bit more patience, trying to get Congress involved, and pursuading both the American public and other countries to jump in. I'm not saying I agree with him, because I don't. I'm personally tired of all the fucking wars over there, and as far as I'm concerned let them fight amongst themselves. Hell, if we really want this war to end, just give Israel the green light. They'll make mince meat out of the Syrian army if we let them.

I think the majority of Americans are against this one for good reason. You'll also find the majority of Liberals against it too - check out the Liberal sights like DailyKos if you want to get a pulse on their sentiments - it's clearly not in Obama's corner on this one. We're personally sick of this shit.

quote:

So, just some food for thought. Do things ever change? It just looks like the tables have been flipped and Obama is as daft as ever. What say you (few people that even troll this website anymore)? Cheers, Shakka

Again, I think there's a lot in common amongst POTUS's regardless of party affiliation than many of us want to admit, and this is a shining example.

So how's the family?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 It's funny, I haven't lurked here in a few months, and so I stop by to see not just a post from Shakka, but I'm in it sorta! Some definite truth in this. I think it speaks a lot to the old mantra that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Granted, there's major differences between Obama and Bush. But whether one wants to admit it or not, to me it's also undeniable that there's too many similarities as well, and foreign policy certainly falls under these similar ideals. True, but until Obama enters a war under false pretenses and outright lies about the rationale for entering the war (ex: remember the Downing Street memo, also read the New Yorker's Stovepipe and let's not forget about the Curveball informant), I think the comparison between the two under similar rationales is pretty weak at best. If anything, Obama has been fairly truthful about his motives for military action - i.e. getting and killing bin Laden, taking out al Quaeda, etc. Yes it does. Incidentally, what's with all the hatred towards Kerry? He's merely following marching orders from above. Just sayin'. As for Obama's actions, he has indeed boxed himself in a corner a bit. But he's doing a fairly decent job of slowly trying to wiggle his way out by exercising a bit more patience, trying to get Congress involved, and pursuading both the American public and other countries to jump in. I'm not saying I agree with him, because I don't. I'm personally tired of all the fucking wars over there, and as far as I'm concerned let them fight amongst themselves. Hell, if we really want this war to end, just give Israel the green light. They'll make mince meat out of the Syrian army if we let them. I think the majority of Americans are against this one for good reason. You'll also find the majority of Liberals against it too - check out the Liberal sights like DailyKos if you want to get a pulse on their sentiments - it's clearly not in Obama's corner on this one. We're personally sick of this shit. Again, I think there's a lot in common amongst POTUS's regardless of party affiliation than many of us want to admit, and this is a shining example. So how's the family?

If I could *LIKE* this response I would. Glad to see you happened to come back just days after I decided to throw a post up in a dead forum. How is it that we gravitate back to a deserted wasteland when we sense there may be a discussion about something we have a mutual interest in. Must be some cosmic connection or something.

You're right--I know Kerry is just going with his marching orders but it's both weird and discomforting to hear such hawkish comments from a guy who came back from a war he didn't think we belonged in 40 years ago, was for one before he was against it 10 years ago and is now for one again because somehow a civil war between a supposedly brutal regime and supposedly equally brutal rebels (read the NYT article today?). Whose side should I really be on? What kind of rationale for military action is violating a "norm?" Is a norm a law? I think sharpening my pencil before I write is the norm. Should I be attacked if I don't do that? He really is flip-flopping again, even if he is a puppet. We've seen this movie before and it never ends well. And there is so much war fatigue in this country I just don't see the rush to action. Obama's credibility is on the line and I think that is evident in the wriggling as well.

Whether or not we get involved, boots ever hit the ground or what, I truly worry that nobody at the top is thinking far enough ahead. Is lobbing a few missiles into a country not an act of war? If someone lobs some missiles into the U.S. we call it an act of war without hesitation. Hell, it doesn't even take that much. So we lob a few missiles into Syria and think it's over? We piss off Russia, have no international backing, Iran has threatened to bomb Israel if we take action but we think that it will end after we throw a few bombs in there for good measure? Scares me. John McCain scares me. Rand Paul is one of the only guys questioning Kerry (that I've seen) that made sense. Just call it what it is.

Anyway, glad we're pretty close to on the same page for once!

Btw, a couple of funny things recently on this subject. A week ago when the Syria stuff started coming to a head, I turned on the nightly news (CNN for starters) and Syria was nowhere to be seen. They were still talking about Miley Cyrus' twerking at the VMAs. Sad. And last night I tuned into MSNBC out of curiosity and, aside from their normal fare of simple GOP bashing, they were also blaming the Republicans for leading us into another war (mainly b/c John McCain was so hawkish in his support for Obama on the matter). Can't make this stuff up.

Family is good. Kids just started school which is great b/c they're out of the house so my wife can find some peace. Work is tough, I think it will be tough forever. But if it wasn't I guess they wouldn't call it work! Hope you're well too.

Last edited by Shakka on Sep-05-2013 at 18:10