quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 But the business philosophy is just fucking pathetic to me - privatize the profits, socialize the debt.

Yup. It's wrong, it's a flawed business model, and it's been forecasted by some for decades. This is how bad things have gotten, and this is what we've been forced to resort to in order to avoid all sorts of financial Armageddon. Thank you FDR for creating these quasi-government backed institutions. Thank you regulators for setting up such a poorly regulated, highly-leverageable business model with zero room for error.

I'm not sure your Hugo comment is appropriate though.

Marxists! seriously...hypocrites...If the Dems did this, the Repubs would be screaming "SOCIALISTS!!"

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Marxists! seriously...hypocrites...If the Dems did this, the Repubs would be screaming "SOCIALISTS!!"

This is not a political party issue, it is an economic issue. The efforts thus far have been completely bipartisan. And it does reek of socialism, but that is how bad we have let it become. To their credit, the Bush administration has despised these entities for years, but their lobbying power and political clout goes a looong way in Washington D.C.

Your government had to do something since the economy is going to hell in a hand basket and as a result, created a huge sucking black hole dragging just about every aspect of the economy with it.

I (normally) don't agree with government interference in business either however with something that catastrophic, they really had no choice.

I just hope the reigns aren't too tight...

___________________
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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Yup. It's wrong, it's a flawed business model, and it's been forecasted by some for decades. This is how bad things have gotten, and this is what we've been forced to resort to in order to avoid all sorts of financial Armageddon. Thank you FDR for creating these quasi-government backed institutions. Thank you regulators for setting up such a poorly regulated, highly-leverageable business model with zero room for error. I'm not sure your Hugo comment is appropriate though.

Maybe not, but I threw that in there because of this statement:

quote:

and told them that the government was preparing to place the two companies under federal control

Sounded a little nationalistic, didn't it?

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with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Maybe not, but I threw that in there because of this statement: Sounded a little nationalistic, didn't it?

i think there are only plans to bring one under Federal control. i'll have to find a link though. i heard it on CNBC

EDIT> boy was i wrong. Bush and Paulson siezed both. still like CNBC though

>LINK<

quote:

Fannie, Freddie Capital Concerns Prompt Paulson Plan (Update1) By Dawn Kopecki and Alison Vekshin Sept. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson decided to take control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac after a review found the beleaguered mortgage-finance companies used accounting methods that inflated their capital, according to people with knowledge of the decision. Paulson will hold a press conference at 11 a.m. today in Washington, according to a statement. Morgan Stanley, hired by the Treasury to probe the companies' finances, concluded the accounting, while legal, enabled Freddie, and to a lesser extent Fannie, to overstate the value of their reserves, according to the people who declined to be identified because the findings are confidential. The Treasury plans to put Fannie and Freddie into a so- called conservatorship and pump capital into the companies, House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank said in an interview yesterday. The government would make periodic capital injections by buying convertible preferred shares or warrants, according to a person briefed on the plan. Paulson is seeking to end a crisis of confidence in the companies sparked by concern the companies didn't have enough capital to weather the biggest housing slump since the Great Depression. The Treasury was ``convinced that the markets simply wouldn't respond until after something like this,'' said Frank, who was brief by Paulson. ``I think it's an important combination.'' Debt Holders Protected Paulson gathered Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, Federal Housing Finance Agency Director James Lockhart, Fannie Chief Executive Officer Daniel Mudd and Freddie CEO Richard Syron to discuss the plan to take control of the government- sponsored enterprises, which have operated as private shareholder-owned corporations for almost 40 years. Lockhart will also speak at today's press conference, the statement said. Holders of the companies' common and preferred stock are ``very unlikely to come out of this at all happy,'' and the chief executive officers will be forced out, Frank said. Senior and subordinated debt holders will likely be protected, said other people who were briefed on the plan. Fannie and Freddie own or guarantee almost half of the $12 trillion in U.S. home loans and the government had been leaning on the companies to help pull the economy out of the housing crisis. Instead, they got caught in the same slump that left the world's banks with more than $500 billion of losses since the collapse of the subprime-mortgage market last year. Rising Costs Concern over the companies' capital pushed their borrowing costs to record levels over U.S. Treasuries, sent their common and preferred stocks tumbling and boosted mortgage rates. Washington-based Fannie is down about 66 percent in New York Stock Exchange trading since the end of June. McLean, Virginia- based Freddie has fallen about 69 percent. Paulson met with Mudd, 50, and Syron, 64, Sept. 5 to tell them of the decision to remove the executives from their jobs, according to two people briefed on the discussions. Mudd, who replaced three top executives almost two weeks ago, is negotiating with regulators to stay on in a consultative role for several months, according to people with knowledge of the talks. A government takeover would be the latest attempt to blunt the impact of the yearlong credit crisis, after the Fed provided financing for Bear Stearns Cos.'s takeover by JPMorgan Chase & Co. ``They have to open their wallet,'' Bill Gross, manager of the world's biggest bond fund at Newport Beach, California-based Pacific Investment Management Co. About 61 percent of Gross's holdings were mortgage-backed securities as of June 30, mostly debt guaranteed by Fannie, Freddie or government agency Ginnie Mae, according to data on Pimco's Web site. Obama, McCain Briefed Pimco and other large investors may put in their own money once the Treasury decides to inject government funds, Gross said Sept. 5 in a Bloomberg Television interview. Paulson hired Morgan Stanley a month ago to advise on Fannie and Freddie. Mark Lake, a spokesman for Morgan Stanley, declined to comment. Paulson also consulted with Bank of America Corp. Chief Executive Officer Kenneth Lewis on his plan, according to people with knowledge of the talks. Bank of America spokesman Scott Silvestri declined to comment. The Treasury briefed Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama yesterday and has contacted Republican contender John McCain's staff. Officials also discussed the plans with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd. ``We are making progress on our work with Morgan Stanley, FHFA and the Fed,'' Treasury spokeswoman Brookly Mclaughlin said Sept. 5 in Washington, declining to comment on any specific plans. FHFA spokeswoman Stefanie Mullin declined to comment. Losses Grow Fannie was created by the government in 1938 as part of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. Freddie was chartered in 1970 to compete with Fannie. As losses on the mortgages grew late last year, the companies recorded $14.9 billion in combined net losses, eating into their capital. Fannie raised $14.4 billion since November and Freddie sold $6 billion of preferred securities. Plans for a $5.5 billion sale were delayed as the company's fortunes sank. Fannie had $47 billion of capital as of June 30, according to company filings. The company is required by its regulator to hold $37.5 billion. Freddie's capital stood at $37.1 billion, compared with a requirement of $34.5 billion, filings show. Critics including former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and Richmond Federal Reserve Bank President Jeffrey Lacker have called for the companies to be nationalized. William Poole, the former head of the St. Louis Fed said in July that Freddie Mac is technically insolvent and Fannie Mae's fair value may be negative next quarter. Fed Involvement Fannie and Freddie dropped in after-hours trading on Sept. 5. Fannie fell $2.25, or 32 percent, to $4.79 at 5:50 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange trading and Freddie slumped $1.40, or 27 percent, to $3.70. The market value of Fannie's $21.7 billion in preferreds had dropped 64 percent to $7.87 billion late last month, according to Friedman Billings & Ramsey & Co. The market value of Freddie's $14.1 billion in preferreds has fallen 61 percent to $5.44 billion. Fannie's market capitalization is now $7.6 billion, down from $38.9 billion at the end of last year. Freddie's has fallen to $3.3 billion, from $22 billion over the same period. Bernanke participated in the meetings because the central bank was given a consultative role in overseeing Fannie's and Freddie's capital under legislation approved in July. Paulson's decision won the approval of Bernanke and Lockhart, the person briefed on the discussions said. Conservatorship The FHFA has the authority to place Fannie or Freddie into conservatorships or receiverships under the law. The legislation that President George W. Bush signed July 30 also gave the Treasury the power through the end of next year to extend unlimited credit to or make equity purchases in the firms. Under a conservatorship, the authorities would aim to preserve Fannie and Freddie assets, rather than dispose of them, the law says. The FHFA was scheduled to release its assessment of the companies' capital levels as early as last week as part of a quarterly appraisal of their finances. Analysts have speculated that the Treasury would wipe out common shareholders, while seeking to shield preferred stockowners from total loss. Fannie and Freddie preferred shares are typically owned by banks and insurance companies. Their $5.2 trillion of debt outstanding is held by investors including Asian central banks, and would probably be guaranteed, analysts said. Senior Position Frank said the federal government will take a senior repayment position to ``all shareholders, preferred and common.'' The Treasury is ``going beyond no dividends, I believe, in terms of what's going to happen to the shareholders,'' Frank said. ``I think shareholders are going to find themselves in a very subordinate position.'' ``Treasury's main concern is the debt markets, and if it was to say that it will do whatever is necessary to keep Fannie and Freddie running, the better it is for their funding,'' said Alex Pollock, fellow at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington and former president of the Chicago Federal Home Loan Bank. Fannie and Freddie sell billions of dollars of bonds each month to pay maturing debt. As of mid-August the companies had $223 billion of debt to refinance by the end of the quarter. While they have continued to issue securities, Fannie and Freddie have paid record yields over U.S. Treasuries to attract investors reluctant to take on the debt even with its implicit backing from the government. Freddie sold $3 billion of two-year reference notes this week at 3.229 percent, or 97.5 basis points more than Treasuries of similar maturity, the highest since at least 1998, based on company and market data compiled by Bloomberg. >LINK<

Last edited by Q5echo on Sep-08-2008 at 01:38

*whistles quietly in the corner*

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider *whistles quietly in the corner*

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out� because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out� because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me� and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niem�ller

quote:

Wall Street hails government takeover of troubled mortgage giants. Dow rises more than 200 points, but Fannie and Freddie shares plummet. Wall Street hails government takeover of troubled mortgage giants. Dow rises more than 200 points, but Fannie and Freddie shares plummet. By Alexandra Twin, CNNMoney.com senior writer September 8, 2008: 10:09 AM EDT NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Stocks surged Monday morning, with the Dow up more than 200 points, as investors cheered the government's announced takeover of troubled mortgage firms Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) jumped 225 points, or 2% in the early going, after having surged more than 300 points at the open. The broader Standard & Poor's 500 (SPX) index and the Nasdaq composite (COMP) also rallied. Stocks ended mixed Friday after a tough session and week, as rallying financial shares vied with a weak labor market report that amplified recession fears. But the tone was ebullient Monday morning, as investors breathed a sigh of relief about the government rescue plan of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Fannie and Freddie. The Bush administration said Sunday that it was taking control of the mortgage backers in an attempt to help stabilize the battered housing market and bring down mortgage rates. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said the companies were being put under a government conservatorship. He also said their CEOs were being replaced and that the Treasury Department would put up to $100 billion in each company over time so as to keep them afloat, in exchange for senior preferred stock. The two government-sponsored firms own or back about half the mortgage debt in the country and have lost billions in the housing market collapse. The plan should lower mortgage rates by lowering Fannie and Freddie's borrowing costs. But analysts are split as to how much the plan will be able to help the battered housing market and sluggish economy. (Full story) Freddie Mac shares plunged 73%, while Fannie Mae lost 81%. But most financial stocks rallied, including Dow components AIG (AIG, Fortune 500), American Express (AXP, Fortune 500), Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500), Citigroup (C, Fortune 500) and JP Morgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500). Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley both jumped more than 5%. Washington Mutual (WM, Fortune 500) surged 9% after announcing that its CEO has been ousted. Fuel prices: Oil prices rallied as Hurricane Ike headed toward the Gulf of Mexico and other tropical storms continued to pose threats. Additionally, investors were keeping an eye on the OPEC meeting in Vienna this week, amid bets that the cartel could cut production levels due to the recent slide in prices. Prices have fallen about $40 a barrel from a record high of $147.20 in July on bets that a sluggish global economy is cutting into demand. U.S. light crude oil for October delivery gained 87 cents to $107.10 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, after ending the previous session at a five-month low. Gas prices declined for an eighth straight day, according to a national survey of credit-card activity. Company news. Altria Group (MO, Fortune 500) said it would buy UST (UST), the maker of dip products such as Copenhagen and Skoal, for about $10 billion, confirming rumors. Other markets: In global trade, European markets rallied at midday on the Fannie and Freddie news, while Asian markets ended higher. In the bond market, Treasury prices slipped, boosting the yield on the benchmark 10-year note to 3.75% from 3.70% late Friday. Prices and yields move in opposite directions. The dollar gained versus the euro and fell versus the yen. COMEX gold for December delivery rallied $15.90 to $818.70 an ounce. http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/08/mar...sion=2008090810

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Your government had to do something since the economy is going to hell in a hand basket and as a result, created a huge sucking black hole dragging just about every aspect of the economy with it. I (normally) don't agree with government interference in business either however with something that catastrophic, they really had no choice. I just hope the reigns aren't too tight...

Something catastrophic has to happen to the people who have made these mistakes. The whole thing reeks of the same consistent bail out and blame diversion that has been going on for the past year.

The Treasury even stated that it wasn't the fault of the people running the bank but that it was the "fault" of ... well no one.


"Originally Posted by US Treasury Release
I attribute the need for today's action primarily to the inherent conflict and flawed business model embedded in the GSE structure, and to the ongoing housing correction. GSE managements and their Boards are responsible for neither."

http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/hp1129.htm

This is problematic. What needs to be confronted is that there are serrious systemic problems in the US.

That means a ground up re-think is needed. Unfortunately it won't happen until things get even worse.

The issue that is being skirted is that effect that this will have on the long term. The fact that the Treasury has offered unlimited liquidity to both organizations for a year means they will print money until the debts are paid.

Exactly how long can inflation be held in check with intrest rates low and money getting printing faster then baseball cards?