Hey there. I just watched this video. As you will notice it isn't about music at all. But at the end they came to speak about creation, and this is what got me thinking about music. I don't know if you will understand much if you don't watch the whole thing though.

For me it was really inspiring, and I think it can help a musician to look at the whole thing from a different angle. Especially if you are trapped in the technical aspects of production, it might give your creativity a boost. It certainly did for me.

At the end they came to the question, does creation involve knowledge?
Invention does, but does creation?

Have you ever been in a flow where you feel like the music is writing itself? Like you just get the ideas from somewhere else? I sometimes have been thinking about music creation like laying a invisible puzzle. Everything is already there, you just need to get the pieces right.

So even if your not watching the video. What do you think? Does creation need to involve knowledge or is there something beyond?

Is there a cliff notes version of this discussion? I was only able to tolerate the first 5min, then I went back to working w/Geist.

When I bought my first MPC along w/an MC303 a long, long time ago... I was creating w/out knowledge. I knew how to play an instrument, and read music... but had now clue how to write music. I didn't know what a chord progression was, or the difference between a major or minor chord. So I spent a lot of time inspired to create, but poking around in the dark trying to come up w/the most basic things related to harmony. I was super slow at laying down tracks, and my execution was crappy to put it mildly. -but I did like the ideas, I just didn't have the knowledge required to get it down correctly.

Now that I actually know something. (and have Geist) I'm a million times happier, and at least 2 million times more productive than I was back then, even tho I really put in a lot of hours (pretty much every spare second of my time) w/my MPC+MC-303 combo. It's like deja vu for me now. I'm fired up like I was back then, but now I have the knowledge I need in order to bring the rock.

So yeah, knowledge is good. I can't over state the fact that's helped me in more ways than I can imagine. Creation w/out knowledge = good luck, been there done that. Never again.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Robotrance This part is what keeps me from having any success too as I take shortcuts to get to goal, I like the artistry best and it's also where my talent lies.

Thing is lets say you ordered a special cake for your GF, and I as a 'creative' baker delivered you something that had artistry and flair but was executed badly, say with burned edges and a soggy bottom, what would you think?

Is artistry only about the 'fun' bit, or are all the mundane details part and parcel of the artistry, not other than it?

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Thing is lets say you ordered a special cake for your GF, and I as a 'creative' baker delivered you something that had artistry and flair but was executed badly, say with burned edges and a soggy bottom, what would you think? Is artistry only about the 'fun' bit, or are all the mundane details part and parcel of the artistry, not other than it?

No one is saying that you shouldn't use your knowledge to finish the track. But the question is if it is possible to create in a state where you get the inspiration from some other place than from your knowledge.

You probably need to see the video to fully understand the question. And I understand that the video isn't for everyone.

Ohh and your analogy was shit. Where is the artistry in your disgusting cake? What if Robotrance make the most beautiful track ever. The music is astonishing, it's something the world never have heard before. But he just can't get he's head around the technical aspects and delivers a mix that isnt up to par with todays standard. Thats a totally different thing from your cake.

That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative shit for the last 10 years with shit mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the fuck out.

Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative shit for the last 10 years with shit mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the fuck out. Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward.

The smart thing would have been to give it to someone else to mix and just concentrate on making great music. I hate to break it to you but this is how 99% of commercially sold music gets made.

Don't worry about breaking it to me, but thanks. I did just see a 16 year old asian kid on facebook discover that these american clowns dont produce their own songs or even arrange their own radio shows... I saw myself 9 years ago being fuckin heartbroken over finding out tiesto was a fraud (and peeling the custom sticker off my subaru.) It still broke my heart, i still reached out a heartfelt "trance is a *insert idealistic view*" comment for him. It begs at the fact that even though some people don't have any idea there's a difference, putting on a facade for money isn't right.

If i never learned how to use the mixer, id have no records signed and that would be a bummer. But, i would still have these archives of loops samples, and ideas that make my producers journey 100% organic and unique. My closest peers know that "Airborne Aluminum" is a skullcrusher, because crazy shit happens when you cram way way too much synthesized high frequencies into cubase SX3's busses.

Creation is creation. When you're signed to a label and remixing a contemporary house song, and sending it off for mixdown in the same day, i would say that's not creation, that's more like working. (which is 100% cool, a desirable situation) This discussion was more about creation, and to properly discuss creation is to mute all inferences of commerce.

And no, I don't have a steady dayjob in music, but want one.

How is doing a track in one day not creative? Some people just work faster than others; a useful term you might not know is 'alla prima,' an Italian term for a painting that is finished in a single setting.

If you're working in a specific genre (trance, techno, etc.) it helps a lot to listen to tracks of a similar style you're trying to produce and come up with a similar structure in your mixdown.

Oh, and all creation is "work," regardless. The more you do it, the more experience and knowledge you gain, just like you would, and should, at any job.

quote:

Originally posted by SherlockCrash Have you ever been in a flow where you feel like the music is writing itself? Like you just get the ideas from somewhere else?

Yes, they're heightened moments of inspiration, to use the cliche. It happens more often the more time you spend working. Any artist would agree on this, I think.

It is pretty subjective, but i definitely understand the idiom, and it circles me back to this point not being worth finding. The intent drive will be unique to each and every one of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought i would say that's not creation,

utter bullshit here, it is too creation. i guess the intentions are different? this shit is hard. and i'm not a perfect communicator.

quote:

Originally posted by Kthought utter bullshit here, it is too creation. i guess the intentions are different? this shit is hard. and i'm not a perfect communicator.

You do realize that you just quoted yourself and argued against it?

___________________
cryophonik.com | facebook | soundcloud

Sonar Platinum | Ableton Live 9 | Logic Pro X | Access Virus TI2 Keyboard | Kurzweil PC3X | Nord Lead 4R | NI Maschine