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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
You could make that argument for any commodity product in the world. Just today Newmont mining said that it was getting more difficult to find gold, yet gold prices have fallen precipitously over the last few weeks.


you could, but it may not be entirely accurate. Real estate will always be a desired assets because we need land and will always need land. A commodity may become less important as new technologies obsolete the uses of commodities. For instance, whale oil used to be a very valuable commodity until it was replaced by crude oil. In 1855 sperm whale oil sold for $1500 a barrel (adjusted for 2003). How much would you pay for sperm whale oil today?

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Edit: Just because the supply of something is limited, does not mean that it cannot become woefully overpriced (or underpriced for that matter), or that supply can, for a time, far exceed demand. Everything is cyclical and housing was a fat pitch to anyone willing to open their eyes to the reality of what was going on. Housing is even more complicated because of all of the regulations and red-tape involved in getting a mortgage, and now you have all of those underwriting standards being tightened and people who may have previously been potential home buyers in the loose-credit days are no longer the marginal home buyer as they have effectively been blocked out of the market.


this statement is entirely accurate; however, we can not increase the supply of land, and the demand for land will not fundamentally change in the future (over a long term horizon), barring a serious population decline, which doesn't seem likely.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 16:29  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
you could, but it may not be entirely accurate. Real estate will always be a desired assets because we need land and will always need land. A commodity may become less important as new technologies obsolete the uses of commodities. For instance, whale oil used to be a very valuable commodity until it was replaced by crude oil. In 1855 sperm whale oil sold for $1500 a barrel (adjusted for 2003). How much would you pay for sperm whale oil today?



this statement is entirely accurate; however, we can not increase the supply of land, and the demand for land will not fundamentally change in the future (over a long term horizon), barring a serious population decline, which doesn't seem likely.


Well, I'd say your "long-term horizon" theory is fine, but what you are witnessing today is that there is plenty of calamity and real pain that can be felt over shorter periods(though still plenty long as we're in a multi-year decline). A simple Buy-and-Hold strategy does not work for most people just because secular trends are observable. There is waaaay too much that happens in the interim to take such a blase approach.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 16:37  United States
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

How serendipitous that this thread popped back up (saves me from seaching...)

quote:

The 10 Riskiest Real Estate Markets in America

A rash of subprime loans and adjustable rate mortgages still makes a housing market dicey, but even more risky are cities where job growth is lagging, transaction volume continues to plunge and unsold homes are piling up. For the 40 largest metros in the U.S., Forbes.com analyzed which were in the most tenuous situations and in the greatest danger of further slumping. Data are from Radar Logic, a New York research firm; the U.S. Census Bureau; ZipRealty, an Emeryville, Calif., data aggregator; and RealtyTrac, an Irvine, Calif., foreclosure tracking company.


http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/31/ho...thisSpeed=15000


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Old Post Apr-02-2008 16:46  Canada
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Well, I'd say your "long-term horizon" theory is fine, but what you are witnessing today is that there is plenty of calamity and real pain that can be felt over shorter periods(though still plenty long as we're in a multi-year decline). A simple Buy-and-Hold strategy does not work for most people just because secular trends are observable. There is waaaay too much that happens in the interim to take such a blase approach.


the problem is that a home has become an investment first and a place to live second. That's the opposite way people should view a home.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 18:13  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
the problem is that a home has become an investment first and a place to live second. That's the opposite way people should view a home.


I have no problem with that statement other than to say a more proper phrasing would be, "One of the problems is that..." And it has certainly been a significant problem in the latest cycle.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 18:48  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
I have no problem with that statement other than to say a more proper phrasing would be, "One of the problems is that..." And it has certainly been a significant problem in the latest cycle.


good point. another problem, as i think i stated in this or another thread, is the way houses were valued. the correct way to price real estate is based on rental value of the property. The yearly rent you could receive for the property over the discount rate leads to the most accurate asset value. Too many people were fooled by real estate agents and mortgage brokers into valuing homes at a price they could afford in monthly payments. now that those payments aren't afforable, they can't rent the property to a renter at a price that would cover the mortgage.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 19:14  United States
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

Oh!
This old thread!

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
the problem is that a home has become an investment first and a place to live second. That's the opposite way people should view a home.

I disagree in so much as it's a conventional way of looking at an asset like a home, but we're in at least the moment, unconventional times.
It really depends.
I'm of the personal opinion that at the moment at least, if you can cover the majority of your house's payments with someone renting it. You can then have a choice of renting yourself, somewhere closer to where you work and thus minimising your other lifestyle costs like the rising fuel prices for example. If you cut down on $30 worth of petrol a week travelling just to your occupation, over a year that's about $1500 saved on something which is a necessary expense.
Also think along the lines of being priced out of an area which you might save money with your necessity costs, a house which might cost $400,000 in the area you need to live is beyond your ability to pay back with your income, however a few suburbs over or somewhere else you can enter the market around $250,000 with a property, rent it for a sound price and have an asset, then if you need too stay where you are- just rent where you are.

The other thing to consider is that you aren't tying yourself down with a rental property like so many people I talk too seem to believe, we're a much more nebulous employee these days which will often hop from job to job far more than our previous generations have done. If you're a renter, that opens up opportunities there for you as you don't have to go through the painful process of having to sell your house quickly (and risking a loss), just to move somewhere you have a chance of earning more money.
So, hypothetically you work as a contractor in an area, doing whatever it is you do and have a chance in another location which is a full $10,000 more than what you're earning, rent about the same in the new area, I think you'd be crazy to stay when all you have to do is break the lease and move.

By far the best thing about owning a rental property?
Making a profit on the thing!
If someone offers you a profoundly large amount of money for the place which you don't expect.
Look around very carefully for 'why'
Because chances are there may be a very good reason which hasn't been immediately obvious before, then go hard and try and gouge them for a bit more if you find out why.
I won't say real estate is a friendly place full of charity and goodwill for your fellow human beings, in fact its the exact opposite, leave your emotional and moral baggage at the door and start stabbing. You aren't there to be anyone's chump and metaphorically, people have probably died for a lot less than the difference in a couple of 0's, if you aren't disgustingly ruthless and vicious in your dealings with big money, stick to something you consider a 'victimless' profit margin where you don't see the whites of their eyes.
Personally, do I like doing it?
Not particularly.
Does it make me wealthy?
Most certainly.

Possibilities are there for you, its just a case of picking the right areas you can afford safely and a little bit more for the tumultuous times like we're in now. With rising fuel costs there's a good chance that places which are closer to your major transportation hubs are going to fetch a much better rent than they may appear. Simply because people are going to become more reliant on them as a means of getting to work, school or whatever. Note that such an investment may not come cheaply, but also, it probably isn't going to depreciate either, in fact I'd expect a lot of areas near public transport are going to increase quite a lot out of demand.
I hate to be a pessimist (well, not really but its polite to say ) but the fuel prices aren't going to go down either, they're high now, they're going to get much higher by the end of this decade regardless.


In light of Fir3start3r's scary map...
I've noticed a lot of use of the D-word when it comes to describing things instead of the even more terrifying R-word lately.
Downturn seems to be popular, no ones really ready to say recession though in order not to have a stampede on their hands, but I think we can probably say that recession isn't too far off continuing the way it is.

Old Post Apr-02-2008 20:52 
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zookeeper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Rochester, New York - on the shore of Lake Ontario

Good news, I received my tax assesment for my home, and it didn't rise. My taxes actually went DOWN a little!!!

***passes out, falls on floor***


However, today my kids flooded the upstairs bathroom! That's going to really help my resale value!

Old Post Apr-03-2008 01:34  United States
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zookeeper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Rochester, New York - on the shore of Lake Ontario

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
Oh!
This old thread!


...But still just as current as ever!

Old Post Apr-03-2008 01:35  United States
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

quote:
Originally posted by zookeeper

However, today my kids flooded the upstairs bathroom! That's going to really help my resale value!


OMG!


that calls for a serious 'timeout'!

Old Post Apr-03-2008 01:57  United States
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zookeeper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Rochester, New York - on the shore of Lake Ontario

quote:
Originally posted by LazFX
OMG!


that calls for a serious 'timeout'!


Nah, just a little story time...

ass

Old Post Apr-03-2008 02:13  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

This is a great editorial and Andy Laperriere and Tom Gallagher have been all over the housing issue.

quote:
Questions for the Fed
By ANDY LAPERRIERE
April 3, 2008; Page A15

In recent months we've seen countless proposals introduced in Congress to protect borrowers from so-called predatory lending. On Monday, the Treasury Department announced a major overhaul of federal regulation of the banking and securities industries.

So far the policy debate has centered on predatory lending and lax bank-regulatory supervision. Hillary Clinton and others have gone so far as to say that subprime loans were "designed to fail." While that makes for a tidy political narrative complete with a villain, it is not a very complete picture of what is happening.

With companies like Bear Stearns and Countrywide (and many others) on their knees, it's clear that events have not turned out as their managements intended. Is it possible the root cause of the credit crisis � which has not been limited to the mortgage market � lies not just with a few sinister CEOs, but with broader policy mistakes by intelligent and well-intentioned officials at the Federal Reserve?

Mortgage lenders, home builders, real-estate speculators and millions of average people who borrowed too much were caught up in a mania. They were responding to misleading market signals that told them to write more reckless loans, build more houses and borrow as much as the bank would lend them. After all, people who did these things during the boom profited handsomely year after year.

If this all sounds strangely familiar, it's because the same kind of imprudent economic decisions and outright fraud occurred during the stock-market bubble just a few years ago. To be sure, there are many contributing factors to the recent housing and credit bubbles (and to the Nasdaq bubble), but a central ingredient in almost any mania is easy monetary policy.

The housing boom began in earnest when the Fed slashed interest rates in response to the 2001 recession, and kept rates too low for too long. The lower interest rates cut monthly mortgage payments and fueled the first wave of home-price appreciation, which began to take on a life of its own. Artificially low interest rates reduced returns on safer investments like government and corporate bonds, so investors moved funds into riskier assets (like subprime loans) to increase returns. Low interest rates also made it profitable to borrow heavily in order to invest in mortgage-backed securities and other financial assets, and leverage grew at a breathtaking clip.

Furthermore, the Fed's policy of ignoring asset bubbles on the way up but aggressively responding to cushion the blow when they inevitably collapse (widely know in financial markets as the "Greenspan put") caused investors to take on even greater risk. The adverse consequences of this loose monetary policy extend well beyond rising foreclosures and the other visible effects of the housing bust. The Fed's loose monetary policy has hurt the average American. Here's how:

- Rolling asset bubbles have depressed wages by spurring unproductive investment, first in the tech and telecom sectors and more recently in housing. This has reduced the funds available for other, more productive investment that could have increased real economic output and raised wages and living standards. Austrian school economists call this "malinvestment," and it is an inevitable byproduct of credit bubbles.

- The stock market and housing bubbles created windfall gains for some (who sold at the right time) and windfall losses for others (who bought at the peak). Many speculated or acted irresponsibly during both bubbles, and have reaped what they sowed. But others were innocent victims of the boom-bust dynamics. For example, young families who bought their first home in Florida or California during the past few years will suffer for years to come the economic consequences of buying at the peak of a historic bubble. (Proposals in Congress to offer temporary tax credits for purchasing homes would create more arbitrary windfall gains for a few at taxpayer expense, while doing little to alter the fundamentals of the housing market.)

- The boom-busts have caused massive and unnecessary employment dislocation. Responding to market signals, many workers flocked to the tech and telecom sectors in the late 1990s and the housing-related sectors in recent years, only to earn a pink slip during the bust. Not only does this cause financial and emotional hardship, the waste of human capital hurts the economy overall. A flexible labor force is one of the great strengths of the U.S. economy, but policies that cause unnecessary dislocation are economically destructive.

- The Fed's loose monetary policy is causing inflation and reducing the purchasing power of Americans' paychecks. Headline inflation is well above the Fed's target, and the reduced purchasing power is readily seen in the declining value of the dollar, and rising food and energy prices.

Today the Senate Banking Committee will hold a hearing and examine the details of Bear Stearns's rescue by J.P. Morgan. This rescue was brokered by the Fed, which as part of the agreement put $29 billion in taxpayer funds at risk. Fed officials will surely receive some tough questions regarding its role in this agreement, and rightly so. Policy makers ought to question the criteria the Fed used in making its decision.

But members of the Senate Banking Committee ought to ask a broader question: Has the Fed's approach to monetary policy during the last several years served the interests of average Americans?

Many will no doubt wince at the suggestion of "politicizing" monetary policy. But a sober review of monetary policy is not only sorely needed, it is Congress's responsibility. Federal law has long required the Fed to report to Congress every six months on its conduct of monetary policy. In recent years, a serious discussion of monetary policy has been almost completely absent at these semi-annual hearings, which have devolved into frivolous public relations forums where members of Congress try to get the Fed chairman to endorse their latest tax cut or spending program.

Congress should not try to fine-tune the federal funds rate any more than it should dictate which drugs the FDA approves. However, like the FDA, the Fed is a creation of Congress. Just as Congress has a legitimate and important responsibility to review the policy decisions that determine which drugs are approved, it should also scrutinize the broad policy framework the Fed uses to determine monetary policy.

The Fed has a very difficult job. Tight monetary policy risks recession, while loose monetary policy risks inflation and asset bubbles. Some Fed officials may be beginning to reflect on whether the Fed has struck the proper balance, as well as on the larger role monetary policy has played in the current housing and credit debacle. It's time for Congress to do the same.

Mr. Laperriere is a managing director in the Washington office of ISI Group.

Old Post Apr-03-2008 16:00  United States
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