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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by zookeeper


I hope your job is worth the education, that amount IS a house payment WITH taxes. Pretty stiff payment I wonder how many other graduates are crippled by a student loan payment (...and defaulting on a student loan is WORSE, to your credit, than a foreclosure)


It's amazing what student debt is accumulated these days.

Happily I was able to pay my way through with part-time jobs and co-op placements (and that's living by myself btw) so I never had any debt.

However student costs are staggering now even from a decade ago...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Apr-18-2008 03:23  Canada
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zookeeper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Rochester, New York - on the shore of Lake Ontario

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's amazing what student debt is accumulated these days.


In 1991, when I graduated from Syracuse University, tuition was $14,500 per semester (..a new car, every 12-15 weeks) I'm seeing "kids" fresh out of college, with $250,000 debt loads! Common sense would tell you that's not a great position to be in at 22-23 years old.

This is an interesting offshoot, I started this thread with mortgages and credit cards in mind, I hadn't thought about how much debt load "Big Education" is putting on Americans.

Perhaps this is an interesting direction to go in?

Old Post Apr-18-2008 03:43  United States
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

Guess where the government chose to spend $500 billion? That's right, not here...


___________________

Old Post Apr-18-2008 03:59  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by zookeeper
In 1991, when I graduated from Syracuse University, tuition was $14,500 per semester (..a new car, every 12-15 weeks) I'm seeing "kids" fresh out of college, with $250,000 debt loads! Common sense would tell you that's not a great position to be in at 22-23 years old.

What's the interest rate on that?
I'm assuming its an unsecured and variable rate loan so it would be roughly 14-17% P/A?

edit- just checked its around anywhere between 5-8% for Americans
Still, if someone offered you a mortgage rate loan for $250k you should probably invest it in a house!
Because unless your coming out of school with a chance of a higher paying job (Solicitor, Accountant etc) then accumulating that much as a lower paid, qualified job (Nurse, Teacher etc) will just leave you in debt for 30 years and with interest paying off an ungodly sum.

Last edited by Lilith on Apr-18-2008 at 04:16

Old Post Apr-18-2008 04:07 
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by zookeeper
In 1991, when I graduated from Syracuse University, tuition was $14,500 per semester (..a new car, every 12-15 weeks) I'm seeing "kids" fresh out of college, with $250,000 debt loads! Common sense would tell you that's not a great position to be in at 22-23 years old.

This is an interesting offshoot, I started this thread with mortgages and credit cards in mind, I hadn't thought about how much debt load "Big Education" is putting on Americans.

Perhaps this is an interesting direction to go in?


I don't see why not?

It definitely should be a huge concern for those planning on getting a post secondary education and what they're potentially going to face in the way of debt.
This was my #1 reason I choose (happily looking back) very wisely before moving on from high school.

I never understood why someone would want to WASTE a year or two in a university with 'General Arts and Sciences' and other fluffy courses trying to figure out what to do with themselves, all the while racking up a huge debt.
Are these people on crack???
Big deal if all your friends are going - are they going to pay your bills too??
These people need to take a step back before being corralled into a bubbled system that demands big bucks.
I say 'bubbled system' because even after graduating with that post secondary education, it still doesn't even come close to preparing you for Real Life�.
When they leave their safe, bubbled environment, that's when the sticker shock really sets in and they bury it with the worse thing they can do, credit cards.
And why?
Because their personal fiscal education is nil, they need to feel good about themselves and they believe it's the only way they're going to be able to afford that [insert keeping-up-with-the-Jones' gadget here].
That and their sense of entitlement (especially these days it seems) only drags them down further into the very tar pit they're trying to escape from...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Apr-18-2008 04:19  Canada
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by zookeeper


I hope your job is worth the education, that amount IS a house payment WITH taxes. Pretty stiff payment I wonder how many other graduates are crippled by a student loan payment (...and defaulting on a student loan is WORSE, to your credit, than a foreclosure)


i make quite a bit more than the average person. i'm not totally dissatisfied. to clarify though, that debt is from an undergraduate degree, a law degree, and half of an LLM (Legum Magister), so it's not all that bad because i have 8 years of post-high school education debt.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Apr-18-2008 at 04:54

Old Post Apr-18-2008 04:39  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith

Still, if someone offered you a mortgage rate loan for $250k you should probably invest it in a house!


A house is really a poor investment these days, especially when such a large chunk of money goes just to the interest alone.

With the cost of inflation, it's really just an illusion of appreciation, anyway. You'd be much better off putting your money somewhere else besides in a house.

Old Post Apr-18-2008 20:41  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
A house is really a poor investment these days, especially when such a large chunk of money goes just to the interest alone.

With the cost of inflation, it's really just an illusion of appreciation, anyway. You'd be much better off putting your money somewhere else besides in a house.


first, a home shouldn't be purchased with the intent of making a profit from a future sale. Second, one of the main goals of investing is to protect against inflation (along with earning a return). Third, real estate has historically been the safest investment with some of the largest returns.

Old Post Apr-18-2008 21:15  United States
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zookeeper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Rochester, New York - on the shore of Lake Ontario

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I don't see why not?

It definitely should be a huge concern for those planning on getting a post secondary education and what they're potentially going to face in the way of debt.


A fairly good (brief) read...

quote:

Average college cost breaks $30,000
Average for 4-year private school passes key mark; total costs for both public and private schools up well above inflation.
By Rob Kelley, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 27 2006: 4:14 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The average cost of a four-year private college jumped to $30,367 this school year, the first time the average has broken the $30,000 mark.

As they have for the past 11 years, average college costs rose faster than inflation, according the latest report from the College Board, a non-profit association of 4,500 schools, colleges and universities.



College Costs
Tuition Total Cost

Four-year public $5,836 $12,796
Four-year private $22,218 $30,367


Source:CollegeBoard

The good news is that the rate of increase at four-year public colleges slowed slightly for the third year in a row - to 6.3 percent from a 7.1 percent jump last year. The average tuition at four-year public colleges and universities is $5,836 for the 2006-07 school year.

10 most expensive colleges
The rate of growth in tuition at four-year private colleges was the same as last year - 5.9 percent - and the average tuition reached $22,218.

Of course, college costs don't just end at tuition. Room and board costs grew at around 5 percent for both public and private schools this year, with public schools at $6,960 and private schools $8,149 a year.

With room and board, four-year public colleges average $12,796 for in-state residents.

In need of aid?
Almost two-thirds of full-time students receive grant aid that lowers their tuition costs. And millions also benefit from federal tax credits and deductions for college tuition.

Total student aid increased 3.7 percent to $134.8 billion in 2005-06, but federal grant aid didn't keep pace with inflation. Without taking inflation into account, the average Pell Grant per recipient fell by $120.

After grant aid and tax benefits, full-time students at public four-year colleges are paying an average $2,700 a year in net tuition and fees. But this number has increased at an even faster rate than published prices because grant aid hasn't kept pace with tuitions. Just over a quarter of all students - 28 percent - are in such a situation.

Full-time students at private schools pay an average of $13,200 in tuition and fees after grants and tax benefits. In total, 13 percent of the students in the survey were enrolled full-time in private schools.

Over the past decade, total student aid, including grants, loans, work-study and tax benefits, increased by 95 percent, adjusted for inflation.

But loans have grown to become a bigger part of aid packages, while grant aid has shrunken.

Loans constitute 51 percent of total aid to graduate and undergraduate students, while grants made up 44 percent.

"The College Board continues to advocate for need-based aid, so that more students can have the opportunity to benefit from a college education," said Gaston Caperton, president of the College Board, in a statement.

"Though student aid makes it possible for many students from low- and middle-income families to afford college, we still face inequality in access to higher education across ethnic, racial and economic lines," he said.

Why costs keep climbing
In the past few years, tight government budgets have kept been cutting off non-tuition revenue from colleges, forcing schools to ask for more from students' checkbooks.

Nor have the costs of health benefits and utilities gone down. And schools are also grappling with higher faculty salaries, especially at private institutions where faculty receive higher pay.

The benefits of a bachelor's
In an accompanying survey, "Education Pays 2006," the College Board analyzes the benefits in lifetime earnings trends of those who've earned a college degree.

The data showed a big earnings gap between high school and college graduates. In 2005, women aged 25-34 with bachelor's degrees earned 70 percent more than those with high school diplomas, up from 47 percent in 1985. For men, that gap was 63 percent, up from 37 percent in 1985.

Full-time workers aged 25-34 with college degrees make an average of $14,000 a year more than those with high school diplomas.

Old Post Apr-19-2008 03:22  United States
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
first, a home shouldn't be purchased with the intent of making a profit from a future sale. Second, one of the main goals of investing is to protect against inflation (along with earning a return). Third, real estate has historically been the safest investment with some of the largest returns.

I bought my first home when I was 21, still live in it and used it to secure more money over the last 8 years, added another 5 since then and a few units, bit of share trading as well which made decent but risky profits.
If you're not really into long term forecasting past 6-12months intervals the share market does just fine for that provided you're a (very) attentive manager that is prepared to spend a lot of time on them, real estate is slower and I've always looked at things in 5 year blocks of ebb-flow of the markets when it comes to purchasing. That can involve a lot more digging around to find a market which will return a profit and you will need to be quick to act when the time comes to buy at the right prices. My houses I'll probably never sell (unless its for fantastically stupid prices of course!), but overall its increased 15% in the last 12 months alone and the value of the area they are in will not go down.
It simply doesn't where they are, that's why they form a foundation of investment- I can punch out any time I want and my profit margin on those will be extremely large.

Small investments, like units though (@150-250k) tend to be something more of a high income earner (in terms in maintaining and insurance) and you can sell them quickly to other investors for a tidy profit if you buy, rent for awhile and then sell when that area begins to pick up, or simply raise the rent as inflation catches up.
Also a much lower risk overall I've found and I've been concentrating more towards them than anything else lately because the turnover is so good.

Risk like I mentioned before comes down to good management and forecasting, if you can't do that or don't think you can learn then of course, you stand to get burnt more often than you'll win. Real estate doesn't suffer idiots any better than shares in that respect.

Old Post Apr-19-2008 05:23 
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

Everyone loves graphs so here's another (similar looking) one of sub-prime fallout...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Apr-23-2008 04:28  Canada
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atbell
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada

^^^

More good stuff. Where do you get those wonderful toys?

Old Post Apr-24-2008 14:13  Canada
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > America's Debt = "We're Screwed!"
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