you can't make this sh*t up

quote:

Venezuela to ban silly names Venezuelan officials are trying to ban parents from choosing names like Superman for their children. Officials warn attempts to use inappropriate names might be turned down by the civil registry if they "expose them to ridicule, are extravagant or difficult to pronounce". The National Electoral Council has laid out the proposal in a draft Bill circulated to city offices in Caracas. When opponents of President Hugo Chavez last year sought to question the accuracy of the voter rolls, they noted that even Superman was listed. But electoral officials confirmed there are in fact two Venezuelans by that name registered to vote. While unusual names appear in many countries, Venezuelans also use unusual spellings of English names like Maikel or Jhonny. Current Venezuelan law already has a similar measure saying registry authorities should not accept names that would expose children to ridicule. But the issue has until now been left up to the discretion of individual bureaucrats. The new bill proposes to create a list of traditional names that could be offered to parents "as a reference" to provide options when they are registering their child's birth. It says the list would have "no fewer than 100 names" and would grow over time. >LINK<

You're all falling for the same trap as you did earlier on in the thread - equating economic systems for dictatorship - it simply does not work like that. In your culture, you have no history of socialist policies (the ones you do have you simply take for granted and are never informed they are socialist policies) and in fact, your culture has spent 100 years conditioning you to believe that socialism is "evil", so no wonder you equate socialism to dictatorship because that's all you know.

In Europe, we have a long history of socialist thought, and certainly in the UK, we are proud of our National Health Service and would do anything to protect it. That is a completely alien concept in the US because you have never had an NHS, not only that, your culture has conditioned you into thinking policies like this are wrong. Altho I fundamentally disagree with that line of thought, if that's what you believe then fine...

But when you apply your cultural conditioning to other areas of the planet, it simply does not stand up. Somehow big businesses have been successful in America in creating an environment where people believe the freer the corportations, the freer the country. Doesn't work like that in reality I'm afraid (but then the corps and their brethren control the media and they control the flow of information and a lot of people are incapable of thinking outside of that flow of information)

For some reason in America, an environment has been created where increasing the wealth, living standards and education of the vast majority of the population, albeit at the expence of the minority rich, is something to oppose without trying to find out any facts. You suck up whatever the media tell you when a quick search (as I did) should leave you highly sceptical of what you have read about Chavez, as the majority of accusations in the media about Chavez have quickly been proven to be lies or to have perfectly reasonable (yet hidden from American/Western audiences by the media) explanations.

I don't know everything that's happening in Venezuela because I'm not there. I've read a lot of good, and a lot of bad. I've managed to sail through a lot of the bullshit (like media censorship - which nobody has commented on) and to be honest, altho Venezuela seems a pretty rough place to live, it doesn't seem all that different from any other South American country - none of which any of you consider a dictatorship (maybe because you haven't been told to yet?)

Until I read anything convincing about the situation in Venezuela turning into a dictatorship I'm happy to see how Chavez copes. That part of the world is in desperate need of change. The economic situation across the whole region is dire and sorry Laz, but it's nowhere near catching up with the developed world.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You're all falling for the same trap as you did earlier on in the thread - equating economic systems for dictatorship - it simply does not work like that. In your culture, you have no history of socialist policies (the ones you do have you simply take for granted and are never informed they are socialist policies) and in fact, your culture has spent 100 years conditioning you to believe that socialism is "evil", so no wonder you equate socialism to dictatorship because that's all you know. In Europe, we have a long history of socialist thought, and certainly in the UK, we are proud of our National Health Service and would do anything to protect it. That is a completely alien concept in the US because you have never had an NHS, not only that, your culture has conditioned you into thinking policies like this are wrong. Altho I fundamentally disagree with that line of thought, if that's what you believe then fine... But when you apply your cultural conditioning to other areas of the planet, it simply does not stand up. Somehow big businesses have been successful in America in creating an environment where people believe the freer the corportations, the freer the country. Doesn't work like that in reality I'm afraid (but then the corps and their brethren control the media and they control the flow of information and a lot of people are incapable of thinking outside of that flow of information) For some reason in America, an environment has been created where increasing the wealth, living standards and education of the vast majority of the population, albeit at the expence of the minority rich, is something to oppose without trying to find out any facts. You suck up whatever the media tell you when a quick search (as I did) should leave you highly sceptical of what you have read about Chavez, as the majority of accusations in the media about Chavez have quickly been proven to be lies or to have perfectly reasonable (yet hidden from American/Western audiences by the media) explanations. I don't know everything that's happening in Venezuela because I'm not there. I've read a lot of good, and a lot of bad. I've managed to sail through a lot of the bullshit (like media censorship - which nobody has commented on) and to be honest, altho Venezuela seems a pretty rough place to live, it doesn't seem all that different from any other South American country - none of which any of you consider a dictatorship (maybe because you haven't been told to yet?) Until I read anything convincing about the situation in Venezuela turning into a dictatorship I'm happy to see how Chavez copes. That part of the world is in desperate need of change. The economic situation across the whole region is dire and sorry Laz, but it's nowhere near catching up with the developed world.

absolute fucking bullshit we have no history of social policies in this country. we spent $1.3 trillion on around 2 dozen social programs alone in 2005. thats $1.3 TRILLION. thats about 80% of your ENTIRE FUCKING GDP!!!!!!!!



what's happening? ever increasing enrollment, spiraling costs and diminished benefits there is no end to.

i don't really know where you come off implying that we've been "conditioned" (by whom you have no earthly idea i'm sure. the boogey man i guess) to think a certain way about socialism when we can pretty much figure out for our-damn-selves looking at how it's implemented here and around the world that maybe we have a slightly better system in some ways considering that $1.3 trillion, is about 10% of our GDP.

oh and btw. if Chavez sees a 20% drop in oil prices he's fucked. and he knows it.

it wouldn't take him a heartbeat to reverse those policies he's implemented to protect himself if that happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo absolute fucking bullshit we have no history of social policies in this country. we spent $1.3 trillion on around 2 dozen social programs alone in 2005. thats $1.3 TRILLION. thats about 80% of your ENTIRE FUCKING GDP!!!!!!!!

Sorry I mean you have no socialist cultural history (I did say you had socialist policies, just that they would never be referred to as such)

There is no socialist cultural thinking in America and I stand by that statement

quote:

i don't really know where you come off implying that we've been "conditioned" (by whom you have no earthly idea i'm sure. the boogey man i guess) to think a certain way about socialism when we can pretty much figure out for our-damn-selves looking at how it's implemented here and around the world that maybe we have a slightly better system in some ways considering that $1.3 trillion, is about 10% of our GDP.

Cold War paranoia from your ruling elites - the government, the media and the corporations - have all played their part in conditioning you against socialism, because all of those groups have a vested interest in battling against socialist policies because they are the ones that lose out at the expence of those at the bottom of society.

You assume the American economic system is the best in the world, yet America and the other right wing economies are the worst places in the west to live when you take into account poverty and crime. Sure right wing economies make a lot of money, and when you divide this by population to get a fudged average GDP which incoreectly paints a picture of a nation's wealth, but the further to the right, the more society deteriorates.

So lets look at this closer shall we? You think economic systems that are proven to allow the rich to get richer while society deteriorates around them is a good thing, and think that policies that help combat this phenomenon are a bad thing (and this, in general terms, is something I've noticed from most American posters on here, certainly from my wider experience of American culture this seems to be the norm) - and you want me to believe that American culture has not been conditioned, by those who stand to gain from said conditioning, into this line of thinking, because people naturally think a deteriorating society is a good thing?!

On ya bike son

smiley, Americans haven't been 'conditioned' to oppose socialism. It's in our blood...This country was founded by people rebelling from a tyrannical government, and there has always been an "anti-authority" grain in the American psyche.. Socialism is oppressive by it's nature. The fact that socialist policies oppress a minority ("the rich") in the name of the "the common good" doesn't matter to us. We see it for what it really is...a form of economic slavery based on the use of government FORCE to achieve political ends. This is why many Americans oppose it...not because Ronald McDonald told us to.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt smiley, Americans haven't been 'conditioned' to oppose socialism. It's in our blood...This country was founded by people rebelling from a tyrannical government, and there has always been an "anti-authority" grain in the American psyche.. Socialism is oppressive by it's nature. The fact that socialist policies oppress a minority ("the rich") in the name of the "the common good" doesn't matter to us. We see it for what it really is...a form of economic slavery based on the use of government FORCE to achieve political ends. This is why many Americans oppose it...not because Ronald McDonald told us to.

More proof my assessment is correct. Thankyou Das Kapitalist!

It's "in your blood" eh? You mean its in your culture and that is what I am also saying.

Socialism is economic slavery?! Have you ever heard of the term "economic exploitation"?! And that's a description of capitalism.

Face facts - there is no rational explanation as to why anyone would argue for policies that deteriorate society and against policies that combat that - other than conditioning by the rich and powerful who stand to lose out the more socialist policies are implemented (like min wage, free health care, free education, higher corporate tax, more workers rights)

Unless you can give me a rational explanation as to why Americans tend not to support the above policies then I stand by my statement that your country has been conditioned by the corporate elite to think that way...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley There is no socialist cultural thinking in America and I stand by that statement

there is a reason for that and it's not because oligarchs are hiding a pot of gold at the end of some socialist rainbow.

what do you think this epiphany of social thought would bring to this country?

quote:

Cold War paranoia from your ruling elites - the government, the media and the corporations - have all played their part in conditioning you against socialism, because all of those groups have a vested interest in battling against socialist policies because they are the ones that lose out at the expence of those at the bottom of society.

my ruling elites huh? this is the 21st century, man. gimme a fuckin break. that shit might have flown in the thirties but this shit is global now. moving at light speed.

this "media and corporations" crap are the same "media and corporations" that your children are exposed to 24/7/365 all over the planet.

and FYI, Karl, my government is doing a SHITTY job at "battling against social policies"

quote:

You assume the American economic system is the best in the world,

i do assume because it obviously is in terms of the size of the pie. i use those numbers though to make a point. if you are so concerned about your share of said pie, it is in your best interest in America for YOU to get that share. we try our very hardest in government and society to make that opportunity available.
those possibilities are virtualy endless and they happen every day.

this tired propagandist line you give about the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is only HALF the story in THIS country Karl.

quote:

On ya bike son

f**k you and your social high horse, "son"

...as if we can't figure out a crap system on our own.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo there is a reason for that and it's not because oligarchs are hiding a pot of gold at the end of some socialist rainbow. what do you think this epiphany of social thought would bring to this country? my ruling elites huh? this 21st century, man. gimme a fuckin break. that shit might have flown in the thirties but this shit is global now. moving at light speed. this "media and corporations" crap are the same "media and corporations" that your children are exposed to 24/7/365 all over the planet. and FYI, Karl, my government is doing a SHITTY job at "battling against social policies" i do assume because it obviously is in terms of the size of the pie. i use those numbers though to make a point. if you are so concerned about your share of said pie, it is in your best interest in America for YOU to get that share. we try our very hardest in government and society to make that opportunity available. those possibilities are virtualy endless and they happen every day. this tired propagandist line you give about the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is only HALF the story in THIS country Karl. f**k you and your social high horse, "son" ...as if we can't figure out a crap system on our own.

"Karl"? You see that's where you fall flat on your arse in this and any argument concerning socialism. You argue from the perspective that socialism, or socialist policies = communism. They don't. But the fact you think they do shows just how right I am that American culture has been conditioned into a specific way of thinking about socialism and socialist policies.

You see my avatar? European Socialist Party? That is the group the UK Labour Party sit in the European Parliament - do you think the UK's Labour Party is communist? No. Said it before and I'll probably continue to say it whilest every I debate socialist policies with Americans for as long as I live - I am not a communist and do not think communism would ever work

The fact that you are unable to seperate socialist policies (such as min wage, free health care, free education, workers rights) from a criticism of communism proves beyond all reasonable doubt your culture has been conditioned.

FYI:

"Ruling elites" = government and those able to influence it (corporations). It applies today as much as any point in history. You are merely arguing about semantics

"Media and corporations" - you are right, everyone is exposed to this. But America tends to give a rather larger amount if airtime to religious freaks and right wing nutjobs that would get laughed out of the studio on any European channel - yet these are the people controlling US policy right now!!

quote:

Face facts - there is no rational explanation as to why anyone would argue for policies that deteriorate society and against policies that combat that

I agree with this statement...which is why I can't understand how you argue for more government and against free markets. Government intervention/oppression causes poverty. Free markets have been proven to do the opposite. If you want prosperity for the people of Europe, just leave them alone for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt I agree with this statement...which is why I can't understand how you argue for more government and against free markets. Government intervention/oppression causes poverty. Free markets have been proven to do the opposite. If you want prosperity for the people of Europe, just leave them alone for a while.

How do you explain that America and the other right-wing economies of the west (like the UK) have high crime and high poverty, yet the western economis with the highest public spending (also higher income taxes) have less crime and less poverty?

I'm no expert on crime...There could be any number of cultural reasons for the difference besides public spending. You seem to think everything in the universe can be traced back to a government program...interesting philosophy you have there man.

As far as poverty goes..."Poor" people in America would probably be considered middle to upper-middle class in some of your beloved socialist utopias...lol There is no fatter group on the planet than poor Americans. I believe the US census did a study a few years back, and found the average "poor" family in America owns their own home, along with at least 2 cars, all necessary utilities/appliances, and several TVs with cable. And nearly 50% of those "poor" households had a computer with internet access as well..

I think the European definition of poor is somewhat different.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Sep-05-2007 at 11:47