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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
Didn't Stalin do the same thing?

consolidate consolidate consolidate power...taking over more and more of the government and private industry every year, then decide that both elections and private property are no longer necessary.

Eh? He wants to change the electoral system so that he can stand for election longer than the current limitted terms. It would be like the American President wanting to change the electoral system to allow Presidents to stand for more than two terms - something common in a hell of a lot of countries. Do you not understand that or is it some arrogant American thing where you look down your noses at any type of political system that is different to your own?

He still has to be elected!

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:35  England
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Perhaps you could explain why you think it's a bad idea?

Probably not unless you've ever had to suffer under dictatorship and nationalisation of private property, otherwise it's just words in print to most people.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:35 
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Perhaps you could explain why you think it's a bad idea?


i will get back on that with you. I will poll the family my family supports/sponsors. All the men in the family were executed due to your Idol Hugo.... in front of the children, on direct orders from Hugo, they were Teachers and Professors, but cause they questioned the NEW VISION of chavez they were killed......

fucking people that know not what that man has done to gain his power should not focking spout off shit. I bet you wear a Che T-Shirt huh??

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:38  United States
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley


He still has to be elected!


at the point of a gun?

I agree with you on many points jorge.... but this one my fellow TA, I think you are soooo wrong...

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:40  United States
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
Probably not unless you've ever had to suffer under dictatorship and nationalisation of private property, otherwise it's just words in print to most people.

Why do you think that a government should only be able to stand for a limitted amount of terms of office?

And as someone who knows nothing about Venezuala, perhaps you could provide me with some trustworthy source to back up your claims that Venezuala is a dictatorship? Was Chavez not elected by the people?

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:40  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by LazFX
at the point of a gun?

I agree with you on many points jorge.... but this one my fellow TA, I think you are soooo wrong...

I don't know anything about Venezuala. I am commenting on the proposed plan to allow governments to rule for indefinate terms of office (like the British) and I think it's a good thing. Please provide me with sources (NOT American media sources as they are not trustworthy) that say Chavez is a dictator and he wasn't democratically elected.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:42  England
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Was Chavez not elected by the people?

So was Mugabe and that son of a bitch owes me a farm.
Chavez won't leave power any time soon and anyone thinking otherwise there is in for a painful lesson.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:42 
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
So was Mugabe and that son of a bitch owes me a farm.
Chavez won't leave power any time soon and anyone thinking otherwise there is in for a painful lesson.

I knew someone was gonna bring up Mugabe!

I quite clearly asked for information on Chavez, not Mugabe!

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:47  England
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

Same crap, different stink, different continent and that's about it. It's easy to have wealth envy and bandy about socialist ideals of the state running everything and giving it to the people, but the reality is that it's just ordinary people getting screwed out of everything they rightfully owned and worked for.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:49 
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Capitalizt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: USA

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
I quite clearly asked for information on Chavez, not Mugabe!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm

Venezuela's National Assembly has given initial approval to a bill granting the president the power to bypass congress and rule by decree for 18 months.

President Hugo Chavez says he wants "revolutionary laws" to enact sweeping political, economic and social changes.

He has said he wants to nationalise key sectors of the economy and scrap limits on the terms a president can serve..

Pledge

Mr Chavez approved 49 laws by decree during the first year of his previous term, after the assembly passed a similar "Enabling Law" in November 2000.

Now the president says an Enabling Law is a key step in what he calls an accelerating march toward socialism.

He has said he wants to see major Venezuelan power and telecoms companies come under state control.

Mr Chavez also called for an end to foreign ownership of lucrative crude oil refineries in the Orinoco region.

Critics of the president accuse him of trying to build an authoritarian regime with all institutional powers consolidated into his own hands.

But, National Assembly President Cilia Flores said "there will always be opponents, and especially when they know that these laws will deepen the revolution".

_________________

and another interesting article on Chavez

Freedom of the Press?

The Media in Venezuela is largely and overtly against Ch�vez, with very little mass media supporting him. However there are numerous reports of intimidation of the media by pro Ch�vez gangs that have been alleged to have issued violent threats against the media that does not support him. Ch�vez moved to start restrictions on the media with vaguely worded legislation that could allow him to suppress political content, although the initial scope of the law was restrictions on pornographic and violent content.

In mid-March of 2005 Ch�vez passed legislation further clamping down on the press, by broadening controls on how the press can report articles deemed "disrespectful" or "insulting" of the government. Sentencing for such transgressions ranges between 20 and 40 months incarceration, depending on the gravity of the offense. Moreover laws have been passed against the media, tightening controls on what would be considered slanderous, carrying sentences up to 30 months and what would amount to tens of thousands of US dollars in fines.

Numerous human rights organizations have expressed great concern over the incremental restrictions imposed by the Ch�vez regime on the Venezuelan media .

Supreme Count

To solidify his control over the Venezuelan Supreme Court, Ch�vez passed legislation in May 2003 to increase the number of Supreme Court Justices from 20 to 32 and appointing another 5 vacant posts, giving him a clear majority in the judicial branch of the government. He also allowed for the appointment of 32 reserve justices, all of which are loyal to him. It should also be noted that former justices were forced to resign after several "politically sensitive rulings". Many are very concerned that with the control of the courts, Chavez seems to have consolidated control over the executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government.

The Statesman

Ch�vez as a statesman has interesting allies, having a very close personal friendship with Fidel Castro of Cuba, and Venezuela provides oil to Cuba in exchange for skilled workers and other services. Similar to Castro, Ch�vez is seen as a darling to the left wing, especially left wing media in the United States.

Ch�vez also had ties to Saddam Hussein of Iraq, and not only staunchly opposed the invasion of Iraq but also went on a state visit to Hussein. He has also allied himself with Qaddafi in Libya, receiving a human rights award from him in 2004 during a state visit.

Not surprisingly relations with the USA are extremely poor, with Ch�vez publicly attacking President George Bush, and accusing the United States of attempting further attempts on his life. In fact his paranoia and pre-occupation of removal from office has reached such proportions that Ch�vez's rationality has been called into question by some.

Ch�vez has also recently bought MiG's from Russia, and territorial disputes with Colombia and Guyana now call into question whether Ch�vez is looking to start looking to his military for purposes other than defending the country. He has granted asylum to Colombian opposition terrorists, which indicates that perhaps he might also attempt to move against Colombia in other ways than outward military force. Moreover, Ch�vez has been known to support numerous far-left terrorist groups in South America.

The Left-Wing Fascist (sic)?

The National Guard or state police force in Venezuela has been accused of intimidation and bullying tactics of opposition, reminiscent of the Mussolini brownshirts in the 1930's. It is also troubling that nationalism and xenophobia are seemingly fostered by the government, combined with a push to have the population loyal to Ch�vez and not to the country. He has created a cult of personality about himself, creating the illusion to the masses that he is infallible; as a speaker Ch�vez has a bombastic style, literally working his audience up into a frenzy.

Ch�vez seems also to aspire to unite much of South America's sentiment against foreigners, notably the United States. He speaks of a continental vision, but clearly not without much influence from himself.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 13:59  United States
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
Same crap, different stink, different continent and that's about it. It's easy to have wealth envy and bandy about socialist ideals of the state running everything and giving it to the people, but the reality is that it's just ordinary people getting screwed out of everything they rightfully owned and worked for.

Any links?

And I'd be wary over the trustworthyness (sp?!) of information you come across because all I know is that Venezuala has come in for a hell of a lot of criticism from American and it's all been slander. I don't hear much in the papers about oppression in Venezuala like I do in Zimbabwe (or Rhodesia if you prefer ). But I do notice that when I do hear about stories like the one in this thread, there seems to be some kind of campaign - originating in America - to twist what is otherwise a non-story (and as I said, a good idea when you think about it in general terms) and turn it into one of oppression (which the American public are only too happy to lap up like a lot of other stories about terrorists and dictators that turn out to be a load of bullshit designed to herd the American people into supporting a government policy they would otherwise not support)

I could find you thousands of articles from British sources and twist them in a way to suggest to people with no knowledge of Britain that it is a dictatorship (I can even find you thousands of statements from British people themselves that say Britain is a dictatorship!) so just be careful about what information you're receiving on Venezuala

Old Post Aug-16-2007 14:00  England
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

Google it if you must, it's pretty easy to filter out american sources and at the same time while you're investigating and analysing the modus operandi of dictatorships you can also draw some interesting comparisons between them and the current US administration.
I don't have a Pol-Science degree. PKC does I think and he might be able to expand on anything those articles don't cover, but even an ignorant little drop kick like myself can see the similarities in how they work.
Nor do I have any real sympathy or love for the US (and the feeling is mutual as I'm not really allowed back there either but I wont go into that) But Chavez is a dictator, he displays all the behaviour and actions of the popularly elected variety of them.

Old Post Aug-16-2007 14:09 
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