quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley While we're on the subject of the Venezuelan opposition, I find it incredibly hypocritical of you right-wingers to oppose the democratically elected Chavez, and instead support the opposition who undemocratically staged a military coup... Anyone care to explain themselves? Don't all rush at once now will you

First of all, not supporting Chavez does not explicitly imply support for any opposition coup. That's the second time in this thread you've used faulty logic. And while we're at it, would you care to address Chavez' own failed coup attempt in 1992 against Carlos Perez? A bit of the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you say, George?

Furthermore, would you care to address the contentions of rampant fraud in the most recent election when exit polls showed 58% of the electorate favored ousting Chavez while only 41% supported him?

Have you ever played connect-the-dots?

Normally I don't like it when people play this card, but George, you might find it instructive to do a little compare/contrast work on Chavez vs. Hitler (another famous "democratically elected" socialist) and their respective rises to power and consolidation of power. Scary stuff I tell ya.

Last edited by Shakka on Sep-06-2007 at 18:07

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm one million people marched in London to protest the Iraq War, what's your point? That any unpopular policy decision defines the actions of a dictatorship? Here's something you may be unaware of: sometimes governments make unpopular policy decisions As for RCTV and the accusations of media censorship, yes they are debunked, and I shall take you lack of arguments to suggest otherwise as agreement. (At the end of the day, it is the decision of the government who gets what licence, RCTV has no right to demand they get it - that's the law I'm afraid. Never has Chavez tried to "shut them down" as you falsely suggest, as they are perfectly free to broadcast on cable/satellite, as are the other major media stations in Venezuela that orchestrated a military coup against the democratically elected government - something that would have resulted in them all being shut down and owners thrown in jail in any other country, yet no comments from you strangely enough about that...)

Yet you don't find it hardly convenient that RCTV had no problems renewing their license until Chez...hence yes, he did shut them down by denying them the license for no good reason other than news homogeny controlled by him.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yet you don't find it hardly convenient that RCTV had no problems renewing their license until Chez...hence yes, he did shut them down by denying them the license for no good reason other than news homogeny controlled by him.

Fuck me did you even read the thread about the media in Venezuela?!

Christ almighty you don't half regurgitate some shit!

Since when has Chavez "controlled" or extended "hegemony" over the media in Venezuela?!?!?!?

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Originally posted by Shakka First of all, not supporting Chavez does not explicitly imply support for any opposition coup. That's the second time in this thread you've used faulty logic. And while we're at it, would you care to address Chavez' own failed coup attempt in 1992 against Carlos Perez? A bit of the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you say, George?

It's a fair point. Tho you do have to consider the circumstances in which that coup took place. It is also perhaps the main reason he was so popular on his release from jail that he was able to win a landslide election.

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Furthermore, would you care to address the contentions of rampant fraud in the most recent election when exit polls showed 58% of the electorate favored ousting Chavez while only 41% supported him?

I would if you provide me with information about who commissioned the poll...

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Have you ever played connect-the-dots?

Yes, I'm doing it now, and considering the lack of arguments from you and your friends I'd say I was doing a particularly good job!

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Originally posted by Shakka Normally I don't like it when people play this card, but George, you might find it instructive to do a little compare/contrast work on Chavez vs. Hitler (another famous "democratically elected" socialist) and their respective rises to power and consolidation of power. Scary stuff I tell ya.

Game over you lose

Actually this debate is whether or not Chavez is a dictator...

So perhaps you two can give me factors that would define a dictatorship, I'll throw a few into the ring...

Media censorship

No elections

Rigged elections

Oppression of opposing groups

Any more you can think of?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Game over you lose

Great argument. Your points are truly compelling! I like the way you do it on that side of the pond! Cheers mate!

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Originally posted by Shakka Great argument. Your points are truly compelling! I like the way you do it on that side of the pond! Cheers mate!

You're the one making idiotic references to Hitler - internet protocol states you lose the argument...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Actually this debate is whether or not Chavez is a dictator... So perhaps you two can give me factors that would define a dictatorship, I'll throw a few into the ring...

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Media censorship

Check

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Rigged elections

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Other critics, including economists Ricardo Hausmann of Harvard and Roberto Rigobon of MIT, called the results fraudulent, alleging there were "very clear trails of fraud in the statistical record" and alleged electronic voting machines had been reconfigured to allow results to be altered remotely...

This one is certainly debatable as far as "totally rigged," but is quite suspect IMHO.

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Oppression of opposing groups

Check

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Any more you can think of?

Che shirts gone wild.

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On January 8, 2007 President Ch�vez installed a new cabinet, replacing most of the ministers. Jorge Rodr�guez was designated the new Vice President, replacing Jos� Vicente Rangel. Ch�vez announced that he will send to the National Assembly a new enabling act, asking for the authority to re-nationalize the biggest phone company of the country (Cantv), and other companies from the electrical sector, all previously public companies which were privatized by past administrations. He is also asking to eliminate the autonomy of the Central Bank.[94] On January 31, 2007 the Venezuelan National Assembly approved an enabling act granting Ch�vez the power to rule by decree in certain areas for 18 months. He plans to continue his "Bolivarian Revolution", enacting economic and social changes. He has said he wants to nationalize key sectors of the economy.[95][96] Ch�vez, who is beginning a fresh six-year term, says the legislation will be the start of a new era of "maximum revolution" during which he will consolidate Venezuela's transformation into a socialist society. His critics, however, are calling it a radical lurch toward authoritarianism by a leader with unchecked power.[97][98] On 8 February, 2007 the Venezuelan government signed an agreement to buy an 82.14% stake in Electricidad de Caracas from AES Corporation. Paul Hanrahan, president and CEO of AES said the deal has been a fair process that respected the rights of investors.[99] In February 2007, the Venezuelan government bought a 28.5% stake of the shares of CANTV from Verizon Communications.[100] On April 30, 2007 Ch�vez announced that Venezuela would be formally pulling out of the IMF and the World Bank, having paid off its debts five years ahead of schedule, saving US $8 million in doing so. [101] The debt was US $3 billion in 1999. [102] Ch�vez then announced the creation of a regional bank, the Bank of the South, and said that the IMF and the World Bank were in crisis [103]. The next day he announced intentions to re-take control of oil projects in the Orinoco Belt, which he said are "the world's largest crude reserve." [104] These reserves, which can be exploited with modern technologies, may place Venezuela ahead of Saudi Arabia in terms of oil reserves. [105] In May 2007 the Chavez government refused to renew the license of the nation's most popular television station, alleging the company participated in the 2002 coup d'etat. This led to many, prolonged protests in Caracas. Also, tens of thousands have marched through Caracas to support President Ch�vez's decision.[106] At the same time the Venezuelan Government was also reported by BBC to be suing CNN. On August 15, 2007, Chavez called for an end to presidential term limits to extend his rule and consolidate a self-styled socialist revolution in Venezuela. He also proposed eliminating central bank autonomy, strengthening state expropriation powers and giving himself control over international reserves as part of an overhaul of Venezuela's constitution. [107][108]

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Originally posted by George Smiley You're the one making idiotic references to Hitler - internet protocol states you lose the argument...

Bwahahhahahaa. Okay Georgie, I'll kindly retract that statement and replace it with this: You are aware, are you not, that there are several "democratically" elected leaders in the history of the world who consolidated power and ran their countries as dictatorships? Some of them rose to power under the veil of socialism.