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Originally posted by Q5echo wait a second, you're basically accusing him of some sort of incompetence. no. not a chance. everything he does is calculated to what end he probably only knows. he's shrewd, arrogant and calculating. basically everything you claim Bush is but somehow you give Hugo an innocuous pass. says a lot about you but thats another topic. no. Hugo hasn't "lost his North". it's that North no longer suits Hugo.

Incompetence in what refers to him helping his nation develop. Regardless of his incompetence being deliberate or not. None of us know if Hugo embarked on this journey with all this in mind. Maybe he had part of this planned out and later developed more ambitious plans. Who knows. We certainly don't. Personally, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt, that principle you americans so dearly hold. I think what happened to him is what has happened to many people. Power corrupts, and our friend Hugo has been corrupted.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Idealism is what all politics boils down to isn't it?

Indeed, but the most useful of all ideologies is pragmatism. Everything else is dust in the wind. If a libertarian derived policy works best for one situation so be it. If a socialist one is the glove the fits, well that's how it should go down. What I have a problem with is how you and some others argue that libertarianism is the one size fits all of political ideologies. That's what I really find hard to stomach.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r No, because universal health care, as a policy, doesn't force changes or dictate what I can or can't do in my financial life; which by the way, is my whole point against Socialism if you haven't caught on by now.

Ah but you're taking universal health care for granted! Because if you didn't have it, if you had to pay for it yourself, then it would dictate what you can or cannot do in your financial life, because a big chunk of your wages will have to be spent on helth insurance - something you may be able to afford, but something a hell of a lot of the poor wouldn't be able to afford (and no medicare in libertarianism)

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Convenient that all the small and medium size businesses that actually make up most of a capitalist society would be missing...

Without protection from the multinational corps (libertariansism will equal complete freedom) then small/medium businesses that try to compete will go bust. The market will regulate itself with the nominal government only dealing with crime etc (altho in an anarcho-capitalist society, even that and the military will be privatised). I envision monopolies with a severe lack of competition with the only small businesses left being those in the service industry.

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That's a lie. Average people have the choice to start their own small business, live a comfortable lifestyle and not necessarily be 'well-to-do' or even 'rich' for that matter, all without government assistance! These are the people that make up the backbone of what a capitalist society and libertarian yet you want to fall back on large, corporate entities, why?

No. You are completely wrong. Your suggesting that everyone can own a small business and make a tidy sum for themselves. But capitalism needs a proportion of people to do the lowest paid jobs (ie min wage jobs). This proportion is well higher than half the population. This is what capitalism is reliant on, without it, it cannot survive, and that is why in a pure capitalist society there will always be poor people - and the welfare state is needed to counter balance this phenonenon

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Originally posted by venomX Personally, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt.

sure, of course you would. what could be the harm in that?

f**k it. our freedoms are safe.

As for Chavez...

The jury's still out for me. I can pick holes in most everything I read about him in the press which suggests he is no way as bad as he is made out to be. If the prejudiced view of socialism that Firestarter has is prevailant in American and their media and government, then I would suggest that is where most of the hatred stems from - ideological differences, not necessarily facts on the gound.

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Originally posted by George Smiley As for Chavez... The jury's still out for me. I can pick holes in most everything I read about him in the press which suggests he is no way as bad as he is made out to be. If the prejudiced view of socialism that Firestarter has is prevailant in American and their media and government, then I would suggest that is where most of the hatred stems from - ideological differences, not necessarily facts on the gound.

the guy's about to make himself the King of Venezuela.

i ask you. where is the nuance in that?

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Originally posted by Q5echo the guy's about to make himself the King of Venezuela. i ask you. where is the nuance in that?

No that's what your government/media has told you to think of Chavez's proposal to change the constitution. When in actual fact, what he is proposing is practiced by a great deal of countries around the world, many of which are far less authoritarian than America...

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Originally posted by George Smiley No that's what your government/media has told you to think of Chavez's proposal to change the constitution. When in actual fact, what he is proposing is practiced by a great deal of countries around the world, many of which are far less authoritarian than America...

what? so he's not going to make himself the King of Venezuela, or president for life, whatever. pick a term.

so he's not drafted ammendments that diminish the powers of the elected Governors and Mayors of Venezuela?

i could sit here all night and link news articles from countries all over the world, incuding yours, making the same critiques my "government/media" is "telling me to think". so is this another global conspiracy trumped up by "The Man"?

...and who are these so-called great deal of countries outside the Dark Continent you are refering to?

i want to know who's living a more free life than me so i can move there and tell everbody how oppressed some guy in the UK thinks i am.

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Originally posted by Q5echo what? so he's not going to make himself the King of Venezuela, or president for life, whatever. pick a term.

He has to win elections

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so he's not drafted ammendments that diminish the powers of the elected Governors and Mayors of Venezuela?

No idea. If he did how would that be different to the process the American presidency has taken since its inception?

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i could sit here all night and link news articles from countries all over the world, incuding yours, making the same critiques my "government/media" is "telling me to think". so is this another global conspiracy trumped up by "The Man"?

You could, and I'm sure I'd be able to find holes in them like I have most articles I've seen so far

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...and who are these so-called great deal of countries outside the Dark Continent you are refering to?

The UK for a start. Any country where the leader can stand for an unlimited amount of elections. Like I said, its better than limits as these leaders are constantly trying to please their publics and have to think long term - the American model promotes short-termness and a lack of interest in what the public wants

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i want to know who's living a more free life than me so i can move there and tell everbody how oppressed some guy in the UK thinks i am.

Everyone in Europe?

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Originally posted by venomX Well then, you might want to answer my prior question to Capitalizt. How does that pregnant girl learn from her harsh expirience?

Is it not human nature for parents to want a better life for their children than they had for themselves? If the woman is even a SLIGHTLY competent mother, she will be determined not to let her child make the same mistakes she did, by instilling the proper values in the child growing up that will lead him/her down a different path...towards a responsible life.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Is it not human nature for parents to want a better life for their children than they had for themselves? If the woman is even a SLIGHTLY competent mother, she will be determined not to let her child make the same mistakes she did, by instilling the proper values in the child growing up that will lead him/her down a different path...towards a responsible life.

But capitalism requires a large proportion of people to remain in the lowest bracket of society - what is your answer to that?