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Thoughts on Russia...
Please feel free to weigh in.
Given what happened with the Kremlin and Yukos earlier this year, and now news today that a similar thing is happening with Russian wireless infrastructure companies, not to mention what's going on with the Ukranian elections right now...do you think that the Russian government is trying to nationalize the country's infrasttructure? I'm really thinking less and less of Putin as I think he may be trying to revert back to a much more totalitarian state. Maybe even communism...who knows.
For those that don't know, earlier this year, the Kremlin hit Yukos(The largest publicly traded Russian oil company) with a tax bill(something in the billions of dollars if memory serves) that they couldn't pay, essentially forcing the company to go bankrupt, and then allowing the Kremlin to take over their assets. Yukos management ended up fleeing the country.
Now today, the Kremlin is doing a similar thing with Vimplecom, a large, publicly traded Russian wireless infrastructure company. They are hitting them with a $157M tax bill, which is more than the company can pay..similar situation.
Not to mention the Ukranian elections...
My recollection of the stories may be a bit off on some details, but the big picture should be correct. I speculate that this is all very telling of more to come.
Before long it'll be back to bread lines and total control from the helm. What do you guys think? Seems to me like the Kremlin is finding the most profitable, fastest growing companies and then systematically finding ways to take over their assets. Frankly, this shit scares me.
think your essentially right, i really think russia might fall back into a communist state, which would be pretty scary. Hopefully things will slowly turn around but right now i agree it isnt looking good. Any other thoughts?
supposedly very soon after the chechnya massacre, the russian gov't had then decided that the people are incapable of voting a suitable person into office... if that is actually accurate, that is already a sign that the iron curtain may make a come back...
i read this from the new york times and seeing as how i don't have an account, maybe someone here could find and post it...
What you have to realise is the russian peope feel vunrable and weak now, they want the old days back. And Putin is promising to do that. And they like it.
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| Originally posted by Dervish What you have to realise is the russian peope feel vunrable and weak now, they want the old days back. And Putin is promising to do that. And they like it. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka The old days of bread lines, food shortages, and poor quality services? Or are you referring to the "stability" of a 5 year plan? |
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| Originally posted by Petrogad lol, tusche, but i think the russsian people are thinking that they might be better off back in their communist state of being rather then the corruptness which exists now... dont ask me, its sad either way |
touche''' cant do that e thing so ah well.
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| Originally posted by Petrogad touche''' cant do that e thing so ah well. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka The old days of bread lines, food shortages, and poor quality services? Or are you referring to the "stability" of a 5 year plan? |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley If you ever see any reports on your news channels (which I am most certainly convinced you wont have) about the new EU states from eastern Europe and you hear the people there talking about capitalism, they all say they were better off under communism. Practically zero unemployment and zero crime. Nationalisation is not a bad thing, in fact it is a very good thing for alot of things, including health care, education and every natural monopoly. Just because it is hammered into your culture that everything has to be run by private companies and fuck everyone who cant afford it, its no reason to pass judgement on a process that many people not only thing is good, but want... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Shakka The old days of bread lines, food shortages, and poor quality services? Or are you referring to the "stability" of a 5 year plan? |
do you guys think the world would really stand by and let russia return to a communist state?
i think there will be alot of intervention to try to keep them from it but the ultimate goal is they will "think" they will be better off being a communist state so they will move foward with it and recieve international backlash
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, I don't see the majority of Russians living any better now than they were before. Infact, they're mostly living worse off than they did in the communist regime, aside for a few exceptions. |
I get Russian TV channles on my sat, and lately there's been an alarming trend of censorship in the russian media on a lot of things. Of course, with the Ukrainian elections and the coverage of the protest there's this sense of danger and urgency conveyed. like FOX news or CNN. There's very little coverage of Yanushenko, but lots of stuff about how Yanukovich is Jesus returned and a lot of news reports and interviews from the regions that support Yanukovich.
Hell, my cousin lives in Moscow, and after watching the news she called home to my aunt and uncle, who live in Kiev, and warned them not to go to the Kiev Square because it was "really dangerous."
And the contrast is really evident after watching a US channel that broadcasts in russian, which covers the elections much more fairly.
More than that, there's been quite a few political programs forced off the air, censored.
The official explanation for the government's hold on the media is the war in Chechnya and terrorism, but it looks too much like what the US has been doing with Afganistan and Iraq and the media. I like it not.
Like smiley said it was a world without the mafia running the place, no bombings more food, smaller gap between rich and poor. Russia used to be a very proud nation, their military was in many ways better than, and in some ways bigger than, the western (US and UK) military. Now it's a joke nearly. The space program was competative(still is actually). But now the place is a shambles. Not saying the people are right but they want a leader who harks back to the old days.
What is wrong with you people, the USSR was never a communist state. When asked if the Russian Empire could ever be a communist state, Engels said: "no, because it's an agrarian nation". Hell there never was a true communist state in the world, all the countries that attemted it had made their own interpretation of it. Moreover, communism isn't evil like you people make it out to be, in theory its only the next stage of economic organization after capitalism fails to provide economically for all the people.
And what do you know about what the people want? Have you even been to russia in the first place?
Cal--
Are you familiar with Central European Media? I'm curious how they've been covering the Ukranian elections. Supposedly they are essentially the antithesis of the government dominated/censored TV broadcast.
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| Originally posted by Cal And what do you know about what the people want? Have you even been to russia in the first place? |
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| Originally posted by Cal Gee so if I don't live in a country (anymore) my knowledge of its history is somehow LESS than that of a person who DOES live there? Go shag a sheep. |
No not familiar at all guy, regretfully, and also when I said foxnews and CNN earlier I meant as in their coverage of war on terror, iraq, etc, that might have been unclear.
Hah dervish at least I've lived there and keep in touch with what's going on there, so unless you've got a legion of russian penpals sending you mail and you religousely read/watch news about the country and its people I don't think you can say anything more valid about what the people are like than me.
Also, shag a sheep? I'm not scottish. I've got canadian citizenship and with that the possibilities for me are endless. some of the things you could have said instead:
go shag a beaver/moose/Mountie
go eat some bacon
go buy another lumberjack flannel shirt
go back to your dogsledding
go back to your igloo
go play some hockey
(add "eh?" to any of the above)
Use your imagination next time
To try and get round your issue avoidance just answer the question. Do you agree with my 2 points?
And as for the other bs why don't you either use your imagination (your scottish.... go shag a sheep.... bravo it cuts soooooooo deep, supose if I was welsh it would be the same? And to be honest I can't really be arsed insulting you, your making an arse of yourself anyway.) or start using arguments rather than insults?
EDIT: BTW I actually used to have a russian pen friend when I was young (big shits I know but you brought it up), my dad still does have many friends there and had organised loads of tours (hence used to know it quite well) there before the fall of communism, and he doesn't think it would be safe to go back to the bits he was in before because of the level of crime. Also when exactly was the last time you were there for more than say a month?
I think Russia is still damn dangerous and things in the world aren't happy to glad. There's still an evil force there and they're upgrading their nuclear arsenal so we can't f*ck with them.
[[[smoke]]]
true, and if they go commy they will be even more unstable
I don't really think there's any extreme danger of Russia reverting back to a state of communism. Totalatarianism? Yes. But not communism. The old system is too far destroyed. When Yeltsin privatized the entire economy (somewhat stupidly), he basically screwed over the Russian people by destroying the very system he believed he was saving them from.
As far as media goes, after Putin took over ORT and ran Boris Berezovsky out of the country a couple of years ago, there has been absolutely no independent media in Russia. Putin's takeover of the media was based on allegations of corruption, but in reality, isn't it more corrupt for a government to limit what is said to only pro-government programming?
As far as Yukos goes, its alarming that the government can target individual corporations/individuals that pose a threat to the President's power with such success. Khodorkovsky's arrest really sends the signal that only certain individuals will be allowed success in the new Russian system. Its pretty scary really. Putin is completely recentralizing the government, but I don't believe he can communistify (if that's a word) the economy. He's eliminated the direct elections of regional governors since Beslan, drastically altered the electoral systems for parliament, and now may be tampering with foreign elections in Ukraine.
And, interestingly enough, for those of us in the US, Putin was pointed out as Bush's strongest ally and supporter after the election. Birds of a feather, eh?
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