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First EU poll over new constitution - spain

looks like its going to be a victory, but only one "no" and the EU is back to status quo. =/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4280841.stm

well, not sure anyone cares, but spain approved it, 77% for. A great first vote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4280841.stm

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well, not sure anyone cares, but spain approved it, 77% for. A great first vote http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4280841.stm

I dont think there's a cat in hells chance the British will vote "yes"

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Originally posted by George Smiley I dont think there's a cat in hells chance the British will vote "yes"

well, i think there is a chance, but im affraid if there is one country that is going to vote no, it will be britain

Good for Zapatero and his people. Now let's see how some regions that weren't that receptive about this new idea react.

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Originally posted by ierxium Good for Zapatero and his people. Now let's see how some regions that weren't that receptive about this new idea react.

apperntly even baskia and katalonia and other not so pro eu regions had a majority for the constitution.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew apperntly even baskia and katalonia and other not so pro eu regions had a majority for the constitution.

True but they also had the most votes of 'No'.

I'm wondering is there a way to make UK skip voting? It's almost certain they'll refuse it and everything will go back to the beginning. I'm kinda wondering why they are in the EU in the first place if they dislike it so much...

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I'm wondering is there a way to make UK skip voting? It's almost certain they'll refuse it and everything will go back to the beginning. I'm kinda wondering why they are in the EU in the first place if they dislike it so much...

only way is if there parliament approves it, and that is not going to happen to my understanding...

but i think most polls show a slight lead to the yes side in the UK, although there are many undecided.

well, i for one actually think it would have been much worse if sweden were to vote about it, luckily our (pro eu) government learned there lesson after the emu vote.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I'm wondering is there a way to make UK skip voting? I'm kinda wondering why they are in the EU in the first place if they dislike it so much...

Welcome to politics - it doesnt need to make sense

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Originally posted by St_Andrew but i think most polls show a slight lead to the yes side in the UK, although there are many undecided.

Really? I always kinda had the feeling that the majority of the people there was against it. Well, hopefully they'll vote yes since Blair still has a whole year to try and convince people to do so.

i really don't understand why they take so many time and effort to make this constitution then risk letting everything go to hell by having these polls

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Really? I always kinda had the feeling that the majority of the people there was against it. Well, hopefully they'll vote yes since Blair still has a whole year to try and convince people to do so.

hmmm now when i checked it up, it seems like there are more against it now. But im sure i read that there were more people in favor before... but i cant find the article... might have been from a swedish source...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3954327.stm

If the Brits get a referendum on it there's a good chance they'll reject it. I'm not sure what the situation is over there in regard to the necessity of a referendum though, since they didn't have one for the � AFAIK (their whole unwritten constitution).

In southern Ireland the EU constitution will have implications for the state constitution and ammendments to that require a referendum. There's a good chance it'll be passed. The referendum on the Nice Treaty was rejected when it was put to the people. The pro-EU administration weren't happy with the result, so they called a second referendum on the same question The people effectively gave the wrong answer the first time, and were given a second chance to rectify the mistake they made. Unfortunately they folded and Yes won the second time.

For the record, I'll be voting against the EU constitution.

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Originally posted by donegalredneck For the record, I'll be voting against the EU constitution.

Eh, out of all countries Ireland should be the most happy one about EU integrations considering how much you benefited from it...

I'm not opposed to cooperation between European states on issues of mutual interest, benefit, etc. I am opposed to centralisation of power to Brussels, less powers to national parliaments (and effectively less powers to the citizens of the state), etc., resulting in a small state like ours becoming a complete irrelevance within a Europe where others make our decisions.

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Originally posted by donegalredneck resulting in a small state like ours becoming a complete irrelevance within a Europe where others make our decisions.

well, no offence, but countries like Ireland, Luxenburg, Sweden has an unproporonally much influence right now. I am from one of those small countries but i still think its unfair to countries like germany or the UK nowadays, stop beeing so selfish. You will not become irrelevant, you will still have more influence on many issues than without the EU.

The constitution is to make the EU possible, without it will be really hard to actually make decissions in many areas.

I think the best thing for it is for just the UK, France and Germany to make all the decisions, after all, its our money that all you lot are sponging off us!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley I think the best thing for it is for just the UK, France and Germany to make all the decisions, after all, its our money that all you lot are sponging off us!!

well at least the UK got a stupid discount... you are far better of than for example Holland or Luxenburg... so, you think one vote for every net million euro contributed to the EU would be a good idea? =)

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Originally posted by George Smiley I think the best thing for it is for just the UK, France and Germany to make all the decisions, after all, its our money that all you lot are sponging off us!!

Denmark is giving more than we recieve. And we are actively working to cut subsidies for agriculture (even though we recieve a lot of it), but other countries (including France) won't have it.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well, i think there is a chance, but im affraid if there is one country that is going to vote no, it will be britain

A while ago, I heard that France wasn't a sure case either. One thing that would be nice about France voting "no", would be the embarrasment to Chirac - I cannot stand his arrogance

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I'm wondering is there a way to make UK skip voting? It's almost certain they'll refuse it and everything will go back to the beginning. I'm kinda wondering why they are in the EU in the first place if they dislike it so much...

In the early 90's Denmark refused the Maastricht Treaty (I think it was), and even though the treaty called for ratification by *all* member states, the remaining EU contries implemented the treaty and continued forward. Denmark was told that a door would always be open to us, but that the EU train would keep chugging along without us. I guess the same kind of arrangment could be made for the brits.
Btw. according to a survey that was released some years ago a large percentage (25%) of brits, don't even know that the UK is a member of the EU. Maybe education is the key.

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Originally posted by paranoik0 i really don't understand why they take so many time and effort to make this constitution then risk letting everything go to hell by having these polls

As donegalredneck hinted, most EU treaties require some kind of surrender of self-governance, and hence the people need to be consulted according to the constitutions of individual member states. I don't think that the politicians that dream up the treaties in the first place are thrilled about this.

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Originally posted by donegalredneck I'm not opposed to cooperation between European states on issues of mutual interest, benefit, etc. I am opposed to centralisation of power to Brussels, less powers to national parliaments (and effectively less powers to the citizens of the state), etc., resulting in a small state like ours becoming a complete irrelevance within a Europe where others make our decisions.

I used to think like you, but the Bush presidency has taught me one valuable lesson: The world needs more than one economical super power. And Ireland (or Denmark, or Germany) alone cannot be that super power. The EU as a whole can - and we are already seeing that power in the case of the conflict in the middle east, in the happenings in Ukraine, in the case of nuclear weapons in Iran.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Btw. according to a survey that was released some years ago a large percentage (25%) of brits, don't even know that the UK is a member of the EU. Maybe education is the key.

never thought you brits were so dumb

quote:

As donegalredneck hinted, most EU treaties require some kind of surrender of self-governance, and hence the people need to be consulted according to the constitutions of individual member states. I don't think that the politicians that dream up the treaties in the first place are thrilled about this.

yeah, i guess that's the reason.. it's kinda weird tho since the media makes it look like they just chosen to give the decision to the people. i wonder how the campaign for the poll here will be here, many people don't have the smallest clue of what are the advantages and disadvantages of the constitution - honestly, i too only have a very general idea of what it's gonna do - and the politicians don't do much to explain it to the people. it's more cool to bash the opposition and it gives them more media exposure (or to moan all the time about the opposition bashing them)

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well, no offence, but countries like Ireland, Luxenburg, Sweden has an unproporonally much influence right now. I am from one of those small countries but i still think its unfair to countries like germany or the UK nowadays, stop beeing so selfish. You will not become irrelevant, you will still have more influence on many issues than without the EU. The constitution is to make the EU possible, without it will be really hard to actually make decissions in many areas.

I'm not being selfish. The few large states, working together, can veto the entire EU against the wishes of the smaller states, and often on issues of national importance to the smaller state.

I'll agree with your second argument. And it ties in with what I've just said. The constitution will bring the EU closer to a European superstate, which is obviously a derogation of national sovereignty.

quote:

Originally posted George Smiley I think the best thing for it is for just the UK, France and Germany to make all the decisions, after all, its our money that all you lot are sponging off us!!

That's the point I'm making (re: the agenda of further European integration it to consolidate the power of the big four).

And your country became as strong as it did through centuries of imperial conquest. Britain's wealth came on the back of counties it plundered.

quote:

Originally posted trancaholic I used to think like you, but the Bush presidency has taught me one valuable lesson: The world needs more than one economical super power. And Ireland (or Denmark, or Germany) alone cannot be that super power. The EU as a whole can - and we are already seeing that power in the case of the conflict in the middle east, in the happenings in Ukraine, in the case of nuclear weapons in Iran.

I don't want to be part of any superpower. We know what superpowers in the past have done. Take Britain's conquest of the world of days past, or the present situation with the last remaining superpower, i.e. the US invading counties that don't conform to its way of thinking. There's nothing positive or noble about being part of a superpower, quite the opposite in fact. They're the source of massive misery to other people and nations.

quote:

Originally posted by donegalredneck I don't want to be part of any superpower. We know what superpowers in the past have done. Take Britain's conquest of the world of days past, or the present situation with the last remaining superpower, i.e. the US invading counties that don't conform to its way of thinking. There's nothing positive or noble about being part of a superpower, quite the opposite in fact. They're the source of massive misery to other people and nations.

it doesn't have to do with nobility or justice. it's about worldwide stability. well, assuming that having 2 superpowers are a more stable situation than having just 1. anyway why do you assume an EU superpower would cause misery to other people? i don't see any reason for that. it's not like they're planning to invade a bunch of countries like USA and George W Bush did! (well, i don't want to discuss his invasions on here, but i think it's a fact that it caused misery to some people)

quote:

Originally posted by donegalredneck I'm not being selfish. The few large states, working together, can veto the entire EU against the wishes of the smaller states, and often on issues of national importance to the smaller state.

well, at least 55% of the memberstates, representing at least 65% of the population must be in favor for a new proposal to go through, a proposal can also go through if fewer than 4 states oppose it. That will prevent that small countries have too much power, and it will prevent big countries having too much power.

quote:

I'll agree with your second argument. And it ties in with what I've just said. The constitution will bring the EU closer to a European superstate, which is obviously a derogation of national sovereignty.

well it will bring the EU closer, but it will still not be a european superstate (even tho i am in favor of one).

quote:

I don't want to be part of any superpower. We know what superpowers in the past have done. Take Britain's conquest of the world of days past, or the present situation with the last remaining superpower, i.e. the US invading counties that don't conform to its way of thinking. There's nothing positive or noble about being part of a superpower, quite the opposite in fact. They're the source of massive misery to other people and nations.

Superpowers does not necisarily have to be the same as evil. I think the EU can bring something new to the world.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew anyway why do you assume an EU superpower would cause misery to other people? i don't see any reason for that. it's not like they're planning to invade a bunch of countries like USA and George W Bush did!

I'm sure when the USA evolved into what it has become there was no intention of invading other countries, but it was a later development which could occur through the power they increasingly held. In relation to the other thing, it has been claimed by Green Peace that current EU legislation is facilitating plundering of fish stocks off the west of Africa. I'll only mention that and not go into it because I don't know much about it, but it demonstrates the potential for abuses that could be carried out.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew well it will bring the EU closer, but it will still not be a european superstate (even tho i am in favor of one).

Compare the beginnings of what is now the EU (I think it was called the European Coal and Steel Community??) to what it became through the EEC and present day EU. It has undergone quite a transformation, and if things keep going the way they are it eventually will become a single federal European state. The new Constitution won't provide for this on its own of course, but it's another step on the road to it.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Superpowers does not necisarily have to be the same as evil. I think the EU can bring something new to the world.

I know they don't necessarily have to be evil. But their creation opens the door to possible abuses of its strength at the expense of other states and peoples, as has been the case in the past and is the case in the present with the superpower that does exist (as I've already mentioned).

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