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Are Oslo and Stockholm Rich? Perhaps Not.
NY Times
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE
We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER
OSLO � THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.
Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.
In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long waiting list.
In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest country.
After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."
One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.
It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.
Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.
All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)
After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut.
The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of 66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma, and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.
Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan Norberg.
Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3 percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is $36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly widening."
The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."
In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal, with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.
Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.
The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with Norway at $18,350.
Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"
Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly think-tank study or two.
Bruce Bawer,a freelance writer based in Oslo, reports frequently on social and cultural issues.
eh, i agree and disagree.
firstly, comparing Norway and Sweden just because they are somewhat related historically, and both Scandinavian is dubious nowadays. Norway for its oil, and either for the fact they didnt industrialize until the early 1900s - which left them far behind everyone else in Eur and N Amer...
plus does he really say that teachers have crappy, poor lives becuase they choose NOT to go to a brassiere or a NY Deli? i think he may have just been in Norway too long, as packing your own lunch, while not always the most fattening nor delicious has always been a smarter idea.
and i know for sure a pizza in Sweden wouldnt cost 40 bucks US delivered even|
Its official.....Norway are the world leaders.......
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/l...ticle942789.ece
Maybe someday Canada will be as rich as Norway or Sweden...
Norway is a rich country. It just doesn't benefit average joe on the street accordingly.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Sand Leaper Norway is a rich country. It just doesn't benefit average joe on the street accordingly. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Yoepus Indeed, it would seem the country is rich and the people are poor. |
Re: Are Oslo and Stockholm Rich? Perhaps Not.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by malek a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax. |
I guess that the article's main message is "Europeans, Scandinavians in particular, and most of all Norwegians think they live in richer societies than the US, and that is wrong. It's the other way around".
Now, the article is pretty well stocked on bad arguments (drink prices in Norway and Spain
), and it seems that the only solid evidence supporting the hypothesis is the statistics. I cannot discern whether these are based on means values or medians? If it's means values (which I guess, considering the reference to GNP), my beef with that is that it is not a very good measure to determine whether a country is rich. I would rather see some statistics on the median income in the country. Being a citizen in a country with a high median income, implies that you are more likely to be well off than if you were a citizen in a country with a low one. No such conclusion can be drawn from means statistics.
Can anyone elaborate on this - maybe point me to some charts comparing income percentiles for different countries?
| quote: |
| Originally posted by trancaholic I guess that the article's main message is "Europeans, Scandinavians in particular, and most of all Norwegians think they live in richer societies than the US, and that is wrong. It's the other way around". Now, the article is pretty well stocked on bad arguments (drink prices in Norway and Spain ), and it seems that the only solid evidence supporting the hypothesis is the statistics. I cannot discern whether these are based on means values or medians? If it's means values (which I guess, considering the reference to GNP), my beef with that is that it is not a very good measure to determine whether a country is rich. I would rather see some statistics on the median income in the country. Being a citizen in a country with a high median income, implies that you are more likely to be well off than if you were a citizen in a country with a low one. No such conclusion can be drawn from means statistics.Can anyone elaborate on this - maybe point me to some charts comparing income percentiles for different countries? |
The first thing you have to realise about that article is why would somebody write it? The answer is cos some people in America cannot stand to be told that in certain aspects, America is not the best in the world and feel it their duty to defend those accusations. Hence the article from some pissed off yank.
Anyway...
| quote: |
| One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see. Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home. |
| quote: |
| It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax. |
| quote: |
| My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians |
Have a gander at these statistics and tell me that journalist is talking bollocks...
USA Norway
Infant mortality rate 6.63/1000 births 3.37/1000
Life expectancy at birth 77.43 years 79.25
% with AIDS/HIV 0.324% 0.039%
Literacy 97% 100%
Unemployment 6% 4.7%
Population below poverty line 12% n/a
Source - CIA. Didn't have Norway's poverty levels if anyone can find it and also much of the data was 2003 estimates so unemployment may be different
Anyway...looks to me like Norway is a better place to live than America so I guess these stats brings this little debate to an abrupt end! And we haven't even brought crime into it yet!
So basically the only thing that says USA is better than Norway is a statistic that cannot be used to compare the average wealth of citizens - nice!
Well I dunno about $50 pizzas, but the all knowing, all powerful big mac index does indicate that things are pretty pricy in Sweden ...
I tried looking for Norway, but couldn't find big macs. However, it looks like you can get a sweet dobbel cheeseburger or a McSnack for only 20 Kroner. What a great McDeal!
The thing is, if anything, the more expensive a country is the 'better' it is. As I said earlier about beer in the UK and Eastern Europe. Compare prices in any Western country to those in the middle east and you will find the Middle Eastern countries many many times cheaper, but its pretty obvious the standard of living is higher in the West
| quote: |
| Originally posted by George Smiley The thing is, if anything, the more expensive a country is the 'better' it is. As I said earlier about beer in the UK and Eastern Europe. Compare prices in any Western country to those in the middle east and you will find the Middle Eastern countries many many times cheaper, but its pretty obvious the standard of living is higher in the West |
| quote: |
| Can anybody confirm that the average price for a pizza in Norway is $50??? |
) so i mean the arguement could be about how big is a large pizza....... 
As to the price of pizzas, I guess that it can partly be explained by the price of the raw material in Norway. Norway has little cattle and pigs, so the price of dairy products and meat is relatively high. Further, Norway is a large mountainous(word?) country, so getting raw materials from one place to the other is expensive. Finally, I think that Norway has high taxes on products that are not healthy.
In Denmark a pizza comes in at approximately $8-$10, for a decent sized one with cheese, tomato, and three to five kinds of toppings. At lunch time, you can get a similar sized one with one kind of topping for approximately $5. So I don't think that the "expensive pizza"-argument is valid for the whole of Scandinavia.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by George Smiley Can anybody confirm that the average price for a pizza in Norway is $50??? |
but yea, i would say it is bullshit! comming from someone who have lived in both continents...
OK everyone post how much the average pizza costs in your country!
The basic takeaway pizza is a 9" Margarita (thin crust) which in the UK costs around �3.90 ($7.22)
For one with an average amount of topping your looking at �4.60 ($8.51)
The other day I ordered a 16" pepperoni (the only pizza topping worth eathin!) which cost �9.60 ($17.76)
Now that was only a thin crust and judging by that photo of Zig's, that pizza looks upto Pizza Hut standard and I can only estimate its price at somewhere around �20 - �25 ($37 - $46.25) and in London that price could easily rise another ten quid depending on where you got it for a pizza of that quality and size
last time i checked, denmark had the highest tax rates in the world, but also has one of the best social services in the world. i think around 50%-60% more or less.
pizza-wise, a large one cost around 12$ average. here in tampa that is. but then, there are a million specials, and side-items that are just as good if not better than the pizza itself. yeaaa.
an extra large (barely average quality) can run for 6$. VEry good ones are around 20$
Here wiv five dolla you eat pizza till trow up.
Seriously... I've never paid more than 5 U$ in a pizza or in an "all you can eat" pizza parlor. A couple of weeks ago, I ate as much as I could and all I paid was 4,60 U$
But it's still quite expensive though 
This is my local pizza joint ...not a chain or anything...
10" special 3 toppings 7.50 Euro ($9.67)
13" special 3 toppings 10.00 Euro ($12.90)
16" special 3 toppings 15.00 Euro ($19.35)
These are very good pizzas but a good bit cheaper (maybe 20%) than say a pizza hut.
I think what you also have to remember is that the Dollar is very weak at the moment...you could knock nearly 40% off the price of a pizza 12-18 months ago if you compared the value of the dollar back then to what it is now.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lira Here wiv five dolla you eat pizza till trow up. Seriously... I've never paid more than 5 U$ in a pizza or in an "all you can eat" pizza parlor. A couple of weeks ago, I ate as much as I could and all I paid was 4,60 U$ But it's still quite expensive though |
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