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-- what makes a good DJ, IYO ??
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what makes a good DJ, IYO ??

when swamper decided to do a TA Top100 DJ poll i thought it was a gr8 idea, coz u dont have people signing up especially to vote, so the ppl voting (members, who spend time browsing music forums) are obviously into the scene enough to tell the difference between a good dj and a bad one...but after seeing the results, seeing that people like G&D and tiesto who can barely mix actually made it in the top10, and someone like zabiela @ 9, and sasha @ 6 (below above & beyond ) it became quite obviouse that most people judge DJs in the wrong way...

so the reason behind this topic is that id really like to know how u guys decide that DJ X is good and DJ Y is bad (and obviously the fact that ive got a lot of free time on my hands ), followed by ur personal top 5/10/whatever DJs...ill start with the first post

1- MIXING: 33 1/3%
A. BEATMATCHING: should of corse be perfect, and be kept sustained for at least 2 min.
B. EQ-ING: the key (imo) to smoothe mixing
C. TIMING: the mix should start/stop at a suitable time in both tracks, which also has a huge role in smoothness

N.B: perfect mixing doesnt make u a "perfect DJ", it only makes u a "DJ"

2- TRACK SELECTION: 33 1/3%
A. PLAYING TRACKS THAT GO TOGETHER: some tracks blend perfectly, and some dont...listen to digweed if u dont know what i mean
B. PERSONAL TASTE a DJ could have perfect skills, but a taste in music that just isnt yours, and vice-versa

3- SEQUENCE: 33 1/3%(aka structure/building a set)
A. CONTROLLING THE CROWD: this often depends on the mood that the DJ playing b4 u left the crowd in, or by the time of the night, or by simply watching the crowd's reactions to the music played (aka reading the crowd)
B. PLAYING TRACK X AFTER TRACK Y TO SET A CERTAIN MOOD some DJs take their crowds on 'trips' going from mood to mood, while others just play whatever track comes in the way while searching through their record bag

OTHER BONUS STUFF
- using perfectly sync'ed samples/acapellas
- using additional equipment (samplers/keyboards/efx units..ect)
- scratching
- the ability to play live bootlegs

MY TOP 5
1. Sasha ----he has the best of all 3 + the bonus stuff
2. John Digweed ----doesnt do any of the bonus stuff too often, but when it comes to track selection he is GOD
3. James Zabiela ----lacks a bit on the sequence part, but makes it up with being the best at the bonus stuff
4. Nic Fanciulli ----killer dj skills all round, and his track selection is just perfect for my personal taste
5. Max Graham ----as above...i bet i could trade record bags with this guy and he wouldnt even notice

don't forget the difficult ability to wave the hands around.

"good" and "popular" are not synonymous.

If you people are really groping around for an explanation to why the biggest trance DJs are the biggest trance DJs, here's a more realistic breakdown than the one above (though I give props to your rationalizations, Zuli, however a bit naive):

*ahem*

1 - SKILL: 5%
This would be everything from beatmaching, mixing, record selection, phrase-locking, scratching, tricks, style and flavour. The technical competence of the DJ. For trance, not much beyond passing for general adequacy is required.

2 - TRACK SELECTION: 45%
The records a DJ plays defines him. So thus, he must play the most popular ones and not deviate into any unknown territory. It's still unclear why Tiesto playing a record somehow sounds better than a no-name local playing the same record, but people insist there is a difference.

3 - THE AUDIENCE: 50%
The bigger the event, the more incredible the DJ appears. This one requires a bit of an explanation:

"Why am I going to see him? Because he's famous. Why is he famous? Because I'm going to see him."

Hype works like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are told over and over again that the DJ is awesome and special and deserves to be worshipped, you will go there with the mission that you WILL be entertained, and that the DJ WILL be every bit as good as the hype says he is.

Moreover, the size and the scope of the audience helps alleviate (or mask, in some cases) the DJ's actual technical proficiency. Half of the blistering wonderment of by someone who attended Tiesto in Concert is not an objective critique of the DJ himself, but rather the atmosphere and environment that 25,000 people can generate. Hell, with that kind of audience, almost anyone can look like a superstar.

It's the same principal as how a comedic movie just seems much funnier in a crowded theatre than if you were watching it at home alone. The shared/mutual experience makes the whole thing much better; moods and feelings are addictive among a group of people. It's a herd mentality, really.

Put Tiesto in a gigantic stadium with only 10 people in attendence, and all 10 of them would have a less than stellar time than if they were in a stadium with 25,000 people. In effect, it is the people who make the event so incredible for themselves, not the DJ. The DJ simply seems larger than life in a massive venue than in a small dingy club or afterhours joint. But it is, in effect, theatre. He's not doing anything special. He's just presented like he is.

On the whole, people only generally like what their friends like, they go where their friends go, they enjoy what their friends enjoy. It's a popularity thing, not a skill or musicianship thing. If the crowd is large enough, all the DJ has to do is play music and fake the rest, and they will excuse him for almost any shoddy set.

Never underestimate the power of mass appeal. The list was constructed based completely on emotional impulses, not any objective critique or serious, rational consideration for professionalism.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur "good" and "popular" are not synonymous. If you people are really groping around for an explanation to why the biggest trance DJs are the biggest trance DJs, here's a more realistic breakdown than the one above (though I give props to your rationalizations, Zuli, however a bit naive): *ahem* 1 - SKILL: 5% This would be everything from beatmaching, mixing, record selection, phrase-locking, scratching, tricks, style and flavour. The technical competence of the DJ. For trance, not much beyond passing for general adequacy is required. 2 - TRACK SELECTION: 45% The records a DJ plays defines him. So thus, he must play the most popular ones and not deviate into any unknown territory. It's still unclear why Tiesto playing a record somehow sounds better than a no-name local playing the same record, but people insist there is a difference. 3 - THE AUDIENCE: 50% The bigger the event, the more incredible the DJ appears. This one requires a bit of an explanation: "Why am I going to see him? Because he's famous. Why is he famous? Because I'm going to see him." Hype works like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are told over and over again that the DJ is awesome and special and deserves to be worshipped, you will go there with the mission that you WILL be entertained, and that the DJ WILL be every bit as good as the hype says he is. Moreover, the size and the scope of the audience helps alleviate (or mask, in some cases) the DJ's actual technical proficiency. Half of the blistering wonderment of by someone who attended Tiesto in Concert is not an objective critique of the DJ himself, but rather the atmosphere and environment that 25,000 people can generate. Hell, with that kind of audience, almost anyone can look like a superstar. It's the same principal as how a comedic movie just seems much funnier in a crowded theatre than if you were watching it at home alone. The shared/mutual experience makes the whole thing much better; moods and feelings are addictive among a group of people. It's a herd mentality, really. Put Tiesto in a gigantic stadium with only 10 people in attendence, and all 10 of them would have a less than stellar time than if they were in a stadium with 25,000 people. In effect, it is the people who make the event so incredible for themselves, not the DJ. The DJ simply seems larger than life in a massive venue than in a small dingy club or afterhours joint. But it is, in effect, theatre. He's not doing anything special. He's just presented like he is. On the whole, people only generally like what their friends like, they go where their friends go, they enjoy what their friends enjoy. It's a popularity thing, not a skill or musicianship thing. If the crowd is large enough, all the DJ has to do is play music and fake the rest, and they will excuse him for almost any shoddy set. Never underestimate the power of mass appeal. The list was constructed based completely on emotional impulses, not any objective critique or serious, rational consideration for professionalism.

+1 Good post.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi 1- MIXING: 33 1/3% A. BEATMATCHING: should of corse be perfect, and be kept sustained for at least 2 min. B. EQ-ING: the key (imo) to smoothe mixing C. TIMING: the mix should start/stop at a suitable time in both tracks, which also has a huge role in smoothness N.B: perfect mixing doesnt make u a "perfect DJ", it only makes u a "DJ" 2- TRACK SELECTION: 33 1/3% A. PLAYING TRACKS THAT GO TOGETHER: some tracks blend perfectly, and some dont...listen to digweed if u dont know what i mean B. PERSONAL TASTE a DJ could have perfect skills, but a taste in music that just isnt yours, and vice-versa 3- SEQUENCE: 33 1/3%(aka structure/building a set) A. CONTROLLING THE CROWD: this often depends on the mood that the DJ playing b4 u left the crowd in, or by the time of the night, or by simply watching the crowd's reactions to the music played (aka reading the crowd) B. PLAYING TRACK X AFTER TRACK Y TO SET A CERTAIN MOOD some DJs take their crowds on 'trips' going from mood to mood, while others just play whatever track comes in the way while searching through their record bag OTHER BONUS STUFF - using perfectly sync'ed samples/acapellas - using additional equipment (samplers/keyboards/efx units..ect) - scratching - the ability to play live bootlegs

Unless you're some 15 yo trance-radio listener this criteria is going to be the same for everyone.

What you can't define is people's tastes.

Yours must be more refined than most...

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur "good" and "popular" are not synonymous. "Why am I going to see him? Because he's famous. Why is he famous? Because I'm going to see him."

I agree with Ishkurs post, but not with this phrase...
why is he famous'?
cus the dj did something to be famous, nobody turns famous randomly... nobody wake up famous in the other day...
one example is: most famous djs are famous cus his productions...

IMO the track selection and mixing technique matter alot but most of all is the vibe I get when I'm listening to the music.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur If you people are really groping around for an explanation to why the biggest trance DJs are the biggest trance DJs, here's a more realistic breakdown than the one above....

actually i wasent trying to explain anything, which means uv just wasted a shitload of ur time on nothing
im looking for how TAs decide wether a DJ is good or not...im fully aware that talent isnt appreciated among the masses, and that most ppl have bad taste, thats why im asking this question on a board with members who are actually into the scene and not just ordinary ppl...this is all made clear in my first post, u wouldve saved alot of time if u wouldve simply read it

and..

quote:

"good" and "popular" are not synonymous.

...im sorry, but thats nothing but complete and utter shite (example: the crazy frog, or boyzone)

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi and.. ...im sorry, but thats nothing but complete and utter shite (example: the crazy frog, or boyzone)

You're trying to say that that frog is both good AND popular? Do you even know the meaning of the word synonymous?

^^ oops...didnt see the 'not'
my bad

Track selection and crowd pacing. Open minded when it comes to music, they play every genre. To me mixing skills aren't importnat, as long as they mix and don't completely crash.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi im looking for how TAs decide wether a DJ is good or not...

Yeah, and I just explained it to you: 5% is skill, 45% is the music, and 50% is what their friends like.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi and.. ...im sorry, but thats nothing but complete and utter shite (example: the crazy frog, or boyzone)

do you even know what synonymous means?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Yeah, and I just explained it to you: 5% is skill, 45% is the music, and 50% is what their friends like.

so ur saying that TAs dont appreciate skills?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur do you even know what synonymous means?

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi ^^ oops...didnt see the 'not' my bad

ffs dude again, read b4 posting

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi so ur saying that TAs dont appreciate skills?

No, I'm saying skill is, at best, a very minor and largely unimportant factor in determining who is the best DJ. But TA's don't know this. They have confused skill and technical proficiency with theatrics. So much of their devotion is misplaced it's staggering. Like I said before: It's like worshipping someone's channel surfing skills.

correct me if ive misinterpreted...

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur skill is, at best, a very minor and largely unimportant factor in determining who is the best DJ.

this is YOUR opinion...you also think that skill and technical proficiency shouldnt be considered as theatrics because theyre too insignificant, and ur saying that TAs (in this case, including me) dont get that...ur also saying that mixing is as difficult as channel surfing (i.e mixing is overrated)...

my oppinion about a good dj:
- good track selection, knowing how build a set counting a history about the played music...
- crowd interaction
- skill is bonus.. but not hard trainwrecks please.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi this is YOUR opinion...

No, it's quite simply the opinion of the general body of users on tranceaddict.com.

The list proves it.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi you also think that skill and technical proficiency shouldnt be considered as theatrics

Skill and technical proficiency aren't theatrics because they are skill and technical proficiency (duh). Theatrics is exactly what it is: theatre. Drama. Acting. Pretending. Playing a role.

Let me put it to you this way: scoring a goal is skill. Celebrating afterward is theatrics.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi ur also saying that mixing is as difficult as channel surfing (i.e mixing is overrated)...

Noooo....I'm saying TA's think mixing is overrated, which is why they don't want their favourite DJs to do too much of it. So the DJs have been reduced to the status of channel surfers. Human jukeboxes. Glorified stereos. And, it seems, the less actual work they do behind the decks, the more they're revered for it.

If you want to see competent, expert mixing, trance DJs are the last people you should look towards.

"It's still unclear why Tiesto playing a record somehow sounds better than a no-name local playing the same record, but people insist there is a difference."

I've listened to a recent Tiesto mix -disneyland, paris- a week or 2 ago. I wasn't terribly impress with how it was executed, and the annoying MC lowered the quality of the mix as well. But after listening to the disneyland mix, I saw tiesto DJ at a relitivly small club (glow, DC.)

A lot of the of the time tiesto goes on, they'll play a long, drawn out, dramatic tune (ie forever today strings intro) and have him annonced like he's a god. However, at the glow venue, when the resident DJ who was on before him went off, he just put a fresh record on and let it play, than tiesto came up and starting mixing his set off of that. The only 'grand' thing about his entrance is that after he blended to his first track, they flipped on the lights in the DJ both for a bit.

As far as his glow set went, he definaly played a lot harder, repetitive, and singular-note baseline tracks than he does normally. He also played a lot of newer tracks. I heard maybe 2 tracks in his glow set that he played in his disneyland set. He was definaly doing the right things to get the crowd going -- and it was mixed a LOT smoother and more skilled than his disneyland set.

Cliff notes -- before seeing tiesto at glow, i doubt i would have put him in my personal top 25. But after seeing his venue adaptbility skills, I definaly have a lot more respect for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Skill and technical proficiency aren't theatrics because they are skill and technical proficiency (duh). Theatrics is exactly what it is: theatre. Drama. Acting. Pretending. Playing a role.

i thought u meant theartics, as in theatrics while playing..example: i enjoy watching videos of ppl like james zabiela because of his mixing/scratching skills and use of efx units...ect

now that uve cleared things up, its quite obviouse were both saying the same thing

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur "Why am I going to see him? Because he's famous. Why is he famous? Because I'm going to see him." Hype works like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are told over and over again that the DJ is awesome and special and deserves to be worshipped, you will go there with the mission that you WILL be entertained, and that the DJ WILL be every bit as good as the hype says he is. Moreover, the size and the scope of the audience helps alleviate (or mask, in some cases) the DJ's actual technical proficiency. Half of the blistering wonderment of by someone who attended Tiesto in Concert is not an objective critique of the DJ himself, but rather the atmosphere and environment that 25,000 people can generate. Hell, with that kind of audience, almost anyone can look like a superstar. It's the same principal as how a comedic movie just seems much funnier in a crowded theatre than if you were watching it at home alone. The shared/mutual experience makes the whole thing much better; moods and feelings are addictive among a group of people. It's a herd mentality, really. Put Tiesto in a gigantic stadium with only 10 people in attendence, and all 10 of them would have a less than stellar time than if they were in a stadium with 25,000 people. In effect, it is the people who make the event so incredible for themselves, not the DJ. The DJ simply seems larger than life in a massive venue than in a small dingy club or afterhours joint. But it is, in effect, theatre. He's not doing anything special. He's just presented like he is. On the whole, people only generally like what their friends like, they go where their friends go, they enjoy what their friends enjoy. It's a popularity thing, not a skill or musicianship thing. If the crowd is large enough, all the DJ has to do is play music and fake the rest, and they will excuse him for almost any shoddy set. Never underestimate the power of mass appeal. The list was constructed based completely on emotional impulses, not any objective critique or serious, rational consideration for professionalism.

Isn't everything you said here the reason you would go out to an event anyways? I mean would you want to a venue to see a DJ you really like and hardly have anyone there? Of course not. The more people, the better time you will have. When I go out, I'm not going as a critc, I'm not going so I can stand right in front of the booth and write down how many times the DJ messes up during his set. I'm going to have a good time. Experience that feeling that comes over you when you are on that dancefloor and the DJ delivers.

That is the one thing that irks me about these forums. There are a lot of people on here that have a vast knowledge of the scene, the music, the producers, the DJs. But you have all become to critical. It seems like everyone has forgotten how to have a good time. That is the point of EDM anyways. Atleast that is why I got into it.

quote:

Originally posted by ZuLi 1- MIXING: 33 1/3% A. BEATMATCHING: should of corse be perfect, and be kept sustained for at least 2 min. B. EQ-ING: the key (imo) to smoothe mixing C. TIMING: the mix should start/stop at a suitable time in both tracks, which also has a huge role in smoothness N.B: perfect mixing doesnt make u a "perfect DJ", it only makes u a "DJ" 2- TRACK SELECTION: 33 1/3% A. PLAYING TRACKS THAT GO TOGETHER: some tracks blend perfectly, and some dont...listen to digweed if u dont know what i mean B. PERSONAL TASTE a DJ could have perfect skills, but a taste in music that just isnt yours, and vice-versa 3- SEQUENCE: 33 1/3%(aka structure/building a set) A. CONTROLLING THE CROWD: this often depends on the mood that the DJ playing b4 u left the crowd in, or by the time of the night, or by simply watching the crowd's reactions to the music played (aka reading the crowd) B. PLAYING TRACK X AFTER TRACK Y TO SET A CERTAIN MOOD some DJs take their crowds on 'trips' going from mood to mood, while others just play whatever track comes in the way while searching through their record bag OTHER BONUS STUFF - using perfectly sync'ed samples/acapellas - using additional equipment (samplers/keyboards/efx units..ect) - scratching - the ability to play live bootlegs

+1

I put a lot of emphasis on beatmatching. A lot of people will tell me that, "Dude, he's just there to play tracks." Beatmatching is part of the art of being a DJ. Here's my reason...

You have two tracks that have the potential to go incredibly well together. However you decide to dance around and pull a Jesus pose rather than beatmatching *cough*Oakie*cough*. When the time comes to transition you hear a double-beat, some of the phrasing may be off, and your EQ'ing might suck horribly. The potentially amazing transition has turned to shit.

However, your friend comes up to the decks and has the same two tracks lined-up. He spends the majority of the time beat-matching, while still finding the time to dance and smile at the crowd. Come time to transition, the two tracks are spot-on, the phrasing is perfect, and the EQ'ing is good. The transition is pulled off seamlessly and sounds gorgeous.

Plus, double-beats just sound like shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Sydag5 Isn't everything you said here the reason you would go out to an event anyways? I mean would you want to a venue to see a DJ you really like and hardly have anyone there?

I sponsor a weekly mashup clubnight that, on its worst days, has no more than 10 people in the entire joint all night. I've never been peturbed by that, because those are often the times I have the most fun. However, I do wish more people would show up, though not for my sake. I'd like to see the club survive. Sykonee can back me up on this.

Other than that, I can't remember any time EVER in my life wanting to attend an event because everyone else was going, nor can I remember the last time attending an event specifically to see a DJ.

I go to have fun. For myself. In whatever fucking way I choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason7 "It's still unclear why Tiesto playing a record somehow sounds better than a no-name local playing the same record, but people insist there is a difference." I've listened to a recent Tiesto mix -disneyland, paris- a week or 2 ago. I wasn't terribly impress with how it was executed, and the annoying MC lowered the quality of the mix as well. But after listening to the disneyland mix, I saw tiesto DJ at a relitivly small club (glow, DC.) A lot of the of the time tiesto goes on, they'll play a long, drawn out, dramatic tune (ie forever today strings intro) and have him annonced like he's a god. However, at the glow venue, when the resident DJ who was on before him went off, he just put a fresh record on and let it play, than tiesto came up and starting mixing his set off of that. The only 'grand' thing about his entrance is that after he blended to his first track, they flipped on the lights in the DJ both for a bit. As far as his glow set went, he definaly played a lot harder, repetitive, and singular-note baseline tracks than he does normally. He also played a lot of newer tracks. I heard maybe 2 tracks in his glow set that he played in his disneyland set. He was definaly doing the right things to get the crowd going -- and it was mixed a LOT smoother and more skilled than his disneyland set. Cliff notes -- before seeing tiesto at glow, i doubt i would have put him in my personal top 25. But after seeing his venue adaptbility skills, I definaly have a lot more respect for him.

This is soooo true!! Tiesto is actually a really good DJ (in clubs!!!), and I dont think that he really feels comfortable with these big events, even if he has to state the opposite in interviews or so. It is simply not his thing to be announced as god, which happened so for the last 2-3 years... A shame that most people voted for him because of his mega events and not for his much better club gigs. If all people would know him as a club DJ and voted him top 10, everything would be fine... But most of them only know him for his cheesy mega events, thats kinda absurd, i think

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Kernkraft400 This is soooo true!! Tiesto is actually a really good DJ (in clubs!!!), and I dont think that he really feels comfortable with these big events, even if he has to state the opposite in interviews or so. It is simply not his thing to be announced as god, which happened so for the last 2-3 years... A shame that most people voted for him because of his mega events and not for his much better club gigs. If all people would know him as a club DJ and voted him top 10, everything would be fine... But most of them only know him for his cheesy mega events, thats kinda absurd, i think

If it really did bother him, he wouldn't do them. Granted, money does often cause folks' personal code to change up.

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