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For those wanting to buy a new car
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Aut...dex.htm?cnn=yes
Fact check: Are American cars really that bad?
Take a good look at vehicle reliability data and the answer may surprise you.
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney staff writer
January 25, 2006: 4:01 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - With all the bad news coming out of Detroit these days, many have a disarmingly simple suggestion: Ford and General Motors should simply build better cars.
"I read that Ford plans to cut about 30 000 jobs in North America alone," one CNNMoney.com reader wrote. "How about building better cars instead?'
How about that?
A perception of poor quality certainly isn't the only reason Ford and GM cars can have trouble in today's market. But it's a factor.
We looked at J.D. Power and Associates Long-term Dependability Surveys to get a sense of where American cars rank in terms of reliability and how much they've improved. That survey measures the number of problems vehicle owners have after 3 years of ownership.
We also checked with Consumer Reports to see what they thought about GM and Ford's performance in terms of reliability.
The answer is that, overall, GM and Ford cars are not that bad at all. In fact, in terms of reliability at least, they've become pretty good.
The problem is that "pretty good" has become "not quite good enough" in a world where quality standards have been raised so high and which many consumers still have bad memories of General Motors and Ford cars that have failed them in the past.
Reliability by the numbers
The story for American luxury brands -- Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick -- is particularly striking.
Of those three brands Lincoln performed best in the 2005 survey, ranking third of all brands -- behind Lexus, as always, and Porsche -- with a score of 151. Buick was fourth overall with a score of 163, matching a score that earned Lexus a top ranking just two years earlier. Cadillac was fifth with 175 problems per 100 vehicles.
Nissan's luxury brand, Infiniti, ranked sixth on the survey while Honda's luxury brand, Acura, ranked 10th, lower than the American luxury brands.
In fact, Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick all out-scored Toyota's Toyota-branded and Honda's Honda-branded vehicles in the same 2005 J.D. Powers survey.
GM and Ford's non-luxury brands didn't do quite as well but the Ford brand and GM's Chevrolet came out above average.
See the table for the details but, as it turns out, a lot of Japanese brands -- everything from Mazda right down to Isuzu -- came off worse in the survey than the worst GM brand, Pontiac.
The nature of the problems reported has also changed markedly over the years, said John Tews, a spokesman for J.D. Power. Major problems, things that would actually make a vehicle not drivable, are rare today, he said. "Problem" now usually means a squeak, a rattle or a stuck knob or switch.
Another view
But the people at Consumer Reports don't have quite as good a view of Ford and GM products as J.D. Powers' survey.
Still, agreed Michael Quincy, automotive content specialist for Consumer Reports, the quality of Ford and GM cars has improved greatly in recent years.
Looking at Ford in particular, that company's American-branded cars are about average in long term reliability. Again, though, today's "average" is a lot better than the "average" of years gone by.
"It's not like it was in the '70s when 'Ford' did stand for 'fix or repair daily,'" he said, recalling an old joke once commonly hurled against America's No. 2 carmaker.
Some Ford cars are actually "above average" in reliability, according to Consumer Reports own surveys, Quincy said. The Ford Escape Hybrid SUV is "better than average," for example, and the closely-related Mercury Mariner SUV is "much better than average" in reliability.
Still, some other Ford cars aren't so bullet-proof.
The Ford F-150 pick-up, the largest selling vehicle in America, has "below average" reliability according to Consumer Reports. And, Lincoln's performance on J.D. Power surveys notwithstanding, the Lincoln LS sedan and Navigator SUV are both rated as "much worse than average" in reliability by Consumer Reports according to its own surveys.
The story for GM is about the same, he said. Some shining stars, a few bad apples, but mostly about average.
Why are we so sure they're bad?
Given J.D. Power survey results, why do Americans seem so sure that American cars are dross?
Three possible reasons:
Reputation: Toyota has, by now, had a lifetime to cement its reputation among American consumers for nearly fool-proof quality. GM and Ford spent nearly as long honing a reputation for not caring much about quality. Things may have improved, but it takes a long time for that to sink in.
Recalls: GM, in particular, has had a problem with headline-making recalls. It's a big company, it sells a lot of vehicles and they share a lot of components. When one of those parts goes wrong, eye-popping numbers of vehicles can be affected. That doesn't mean the vehicles are unreliable. Recalls are a different sort of problem. But it does cause concerns.
Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.
Both GM and Ford are making strides in this area, too. Some recent GM and Ford products should go a long way to correcting the image of throwaway construction.
GM and Ford deserve credit for what they've done so far. But American consumers have shown they still need lots more proof.
FoMoCo wins!
Now please take that and make every American read it, believe it (that's the hard part) and get them to buy new cars.
Either that or my hometown is toast - the city council voted to CLOSE OUR ZOO fer chrissakes. I heard on the radio that Gov. Grandholm had ol' Prezzy Bush here for talks and asked him to not forget about the American auto industry, it's importance to this state's economy, and to enact fair trade policies. He told her that he cannot make the auto industry better himself (well, DUH!).
Detroit downtown is undergoing a comeback from the early-mid 90's when it seemed all but dead. But it needs to keep it up - every year, the city of Detroit closes something for more cops or more firemen, etc. Our Art Museum (the DIA) is now run by a private corporation just to keep running - which is the way the Zoo was going to go as well. Squelch that - the Detroit council voted against it and one city council woman was quoted along the lines of saying that having the zoo taken away from their governance amounted to an overseer on a plantation telling slaves what to do and that it was racist and not going to happen?!?! GAGH! Fackin' ninny - the zoo costs $4-5 million a year to run and they don't have the revenue for it.
The Belle Isle Zoo & Aquarium (the oldest in North America) closed last year. The Arboretum is still open but seeing the empty zoo and the vacant beautiful gothic structure....breaks my heart.
Sorry to get off topic but I can see the trickle down effect from the auto industry's floundering. People are getting laid off and a lot are moving out of state (me included this summer - and my mother this fall). A lot of my friends maxed out their unemployment of 8 months before they found work again. A lot go to Chicago, New York, Boston for work - some move out west too.
Re: For those wanting to buy a new car
| quote: |
| Originally posted by malek GM and Ford deserve credit for what they've done so far. But American consumers have shown they still need lots more proof. |
i still don't think i would buy an domestic car.
they have been improving with reliablity but the overall quality of the interior and actual car isn't up to par with the rest of the world.
its like the article says, they are good but not good enough
/me waiting for Cale's response/comments
| quote: |
| Originally posted by King Luis i still don't think i would buy an domestic car. they have been improving with reliablity but the overall quality of the interior and actual car isn't up to par with the rest of the world. its like the article says, they are good but not good enough |
Saturn Aura = Vauxhall/Opel Vectra. Good car.
Lincoln Zephyr/Ford Fusion = Mazda6. Good car.
Mazda3 = Euro Ford Focus. Good car.
It's all perceived quality. Like the article says, American cars aren't bad, in fact they're quite good these days. It's just that the unwashed masses haven't yet figured this out. The new Chevy Impala has a really, greally great interior for the price. It looks decent, but the most important part is that it feels proper. It doesn't feel cheap. It is solid, and nothing rattles or squeaks like in years past.
American cars are good machines, folks.
^^^
I like Opels.. wish GM would bring the brand here too
| quote: |
| Originally posted by AdReNaLiNa ^^^ I like Opels.. wish GM would bring the brand here too |
I 
FoMoCo.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by AdReNaLiNa ^^^ I like Opels.. wish GM would bring the brand here too |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by rabbitjoker I FoMoCo. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Saturn Sky |
Geez..
Analyzing the number of problems the car produces in 3 starting years of ownership is really useful! Look into the stats people. It' only 3 years.
When a Ford/GM can consistently produce a car that is good for 10 years w/ no significant problems/defects/rusting, then we'll talk.
Until then, Honda/Toyota are kings for reliability for us regular people.
-Roman
| quote: |
| Originally posted by malek Fusion SVT soon |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by VERTiG0 aka. Mazdaspeed6 |
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| Originally posted by malek aka Ford Taurus |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Not even close. Completely, utterly different platform. |
I love watching Cale car-info battle against people!
It's almost as great as seeing what dumbass wicked comemnt Vivid Boy will make next!
Jem
American cars have definately made huge leaps over the years...still have ways to go though!
alot of those "top" american brands are old people mobiles who drive their cars 1000k km's a year and hardly touch them ...
| quote: |
| Originally posted by malek you're right but i still prefer them over asian cars, especially Toyota, Huyndai, most Hondas, Kia, Daewoo are bland and boring exterior and interior. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by malek Mazda6 used the same Duratec engine as the Taurus, maybe still is. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Stingray Yes but engine and platform are two totally different things. You could stick that Deratec in just about any front drive platform regardless of company. (providing it physically fits of course) |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Indeed. Can you call the Camaro with the LT1 the same as a Buick Roadmaster with an LT1? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Fuck though, Chevy smallblocks fit in everything. EVERYTHING. |
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