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Should the US pull out of Iraq?

Just interested to see the opinion of the participants of this forum on this matter.

I'd be nice if you could leave a short reply explaining your position too.

But the question is open-worded more to reflect the sentiment of your opinion then the reasoning behind it.

I voted 'Yes'.

US staying in Iraq will only increase violence.

Civil War is inevitable and it is going on right now.

I dont want this Civil War, but still I think it will only solve the problem. Let them fight and sort it out.

US should pay compensation for the damages it has inflicted to the country. And any compensation will not be enough for the lifes of innocent people killed and being killed daily in this war.

Full support (armoury), training should be given to the Iraqi army and police by US.

And US should apologise and request to UNO for introducing its peace keeping troops in Iraq.

Please vote before you read this.

Put Purple, I would be interested to hear your comments on this article:

quote:

source: http://opinionjournal.com/editorial...ml?id=110008124 What if We Lose? The consequences of U.S. defeat in Iraq. Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST The third anniversary of U.S. military action to liberate Iraq has brought with it a relentless stream of media and political pessimism that is unwarranted by the facts and threatens to become a self-fulfilling prophesy if it goes unchallenged. Yes, sectarian tensions are running high and the politicians of Iraq's newly elected parliament are taking a long time forming a government. But the attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra several weeks back has not provoked the spiral into "civil war" that so many keep predicting. U.S. casualties are down over the past month, in part because Iraqi security forces are performing better all the time. More fundamentally, the coalition remains solidly allied with the majority of Iraqis who want neither Saddam's Hussein's return nor the country's descent into a Taliban-like hellhole. There is no widespread agitation for U.S. troops to depart, and if anything the Iraqi fear is that we'll leave too soon. Yet there's no denying the polls showing that most Americans are increasingly weary of the daily news of car bombs and Iraqi squabbling and are wishing it would all just go away. Their pessimism is fed by elites who should know better but can't restrain their domestic political calculations long enough to consider the damage that would accompany U.S. failure. A conventional military defeat is inconceivable in Iraq, but a premature U.S. withdrawal is becoming all too possible. With that in mind, it's worth thinking through what would happen if the U.S. does fail in Iraq. By fail, we mean cut and run before giving Iraqis the time and support to establish a stable, democratic government that can stand on its own. Beyond almost certain chaos in Iraq, here are some other likely consequences: � The U.S. would lose all credibility on weapons proliferation. One doesn't have to be a dreamy-eyed optimist about democracy to recognize that toppling Saddam Hussein was a milestone in slowing the spread of WMD. Watching the Saddam example, Libya's Moammar Gadhafi decided he didn't want to be next. Gadhafi's "voluntary" disarmament in turn helped uncover the nuclear network run by Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and Iran's two decades of deception. Now Iran is dangerously close to acquiring nuclear weapons, a prospect that might yet be headed off by the use or threat of force. But if the U.S. retreats from Iraq, Iran's mullahs will know that we have no stomach to confront them and coercive diplomacy will have no credibility. An Iranian bomb, in turn, would inspire nuclear efforts in other Mideast countries and around the world. � Broader Mideast instability. No one should underestimate America's deterrent effect in that unstable region, a benefit that would vanish if we left Iraq precipitously. Iran would feel free to begin unfettered meddling in southern Iraq with the aim of helping young radicals like Moqtada al-Sadr overwhelm moderate clerics like the Grand Ayatollah Sistani. Syria would feel free to return to its predations in Lebanon and to unleash Hezbollah on Israel. Even allies like Turkey might feel compelled to take unilateral, albeit counterproductive steps, such as intervening in northern Iraq to protect their interests. Every country in the Middle East would make its own new calculation of how much it could afford to support U.S. interests. Some would make their own private deals with al Qaeda, or at a minimum stop aiding us in our pursuit of Islamists. � We would lose all credibility with Muslim reformers. The Mideast is now undergoing a political evolution in which the clear majority, even if skeptical of U.S. motives, agrees with the goal of more democracy and accountable government. They have watched as millions of Iraqis have literally risked their lives to vote and otherwise support the project. Having seen those Iraqis later betrayed, other would-be reformers would not gamble their futures on American support. Nothing could be worse in the battle for Muslim "hearts and minds" than to betray our most natural allies. � We would invite more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Osama bin Laden said many times that he saw the weak U.S. response to Somalia and the Khobar Towers and USS Cole bombings as evidence that we lacked the will for a long fight. The forceful response after 9/11 taught al Qaeda otherwise, but a retreat in Iraq would revive that reputation for American weakness. While Western liberals may deny any connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, bin Laden and the rest of the Arab world see it clearly and would advertise a U.S. withdrawal as his victory. Far from leaving us alone, bin Laden would be more emboldened to strike the U.S. homeland with a goal of driving the U.S. entirely out of the Mideast. We could go on, but our point is that far more is at stake in Iraq than President Bush's approval rating or the influence of this or that foreign-policy faction. U.S. credibility and safety are at risk in the most direct way imaginable, far more than they were in Vietnam. In that fight, we could establish a new anti-Communist perimeter elsewhere in Southeast Asia. The poison of radical Islam will spread far and wide across borders if it can make even a plausible claim to being on the ascendancy, and nothing would show that more than the retreat of America from Iraq. We still believe victory in Iraq is possible, indeed likely, notwithstanding its costs and difficulties. But the desire among so many of our political elites to repudiate Mr. Bush and his foreign policy is creating a dangerous public pessimism that could yet lead to defeat--a defeat whose price would be paid by all Americans, and for years to come.

quote:

What if We Lose? The consequences of U.S. defeat in Iraq.

You already lost this war.

quote:

Beyond almost certain chaos in Iraq, here are some other likely consequences:

I think it will be a mix of some of the consequences mentioned.

quote:

� The U.S. would lose all credibility on weapons proliferation. One doesn't have to be a dreamy-eyed optimist about democracy to recognize that toppling Saddam Hussein was a milestone in slowing the spread of WMD. Watching the Saddam example, Libya's Moammar Gadhafi decided he didn't want to be next. Gadhafi's "voluntary" disarmament in turn helped uncover the nuclear network run by Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and Iran's two decades of deception. Now Iran is dangerously close to acquiring nuclear weapons, a prospect that might yet be headed off by the use or threat of force. But if the U.S. retreats from Iraq, Iran's mullahs will know that we have no stomach to confront them and coercive diplomacy will have no credibility. An Iranian bomb, in turn, would inspire nuclear efforts in other Mideast countries and around the world.

U.S. had lost all credibility on weapons proliferation. Libya had nothing much, it got scared that stupid Bush may fu*k them too for no reason at all (or for oil because Libya got oil too), so he opened his borders and said 'Come see we got nothing, please spare us.' And Iran is getting what it wants, US in Iraq or no US in Iraq, Iran will get what it wants.

quote:

� Broader Mideast instability. No one should underestimate America's deterrent effect in that unstable region, a benefit that would vanish if we left Iraq precipitously. Iran would feel free to begin unfettered meddling in southern Iraq with the aim of helping young radicals like Moqtada al-Sadr overwhelm moderate clerics like the Grand Ayatollah Sistani.

Yes, Iran may try to interfere, but UN Peace keeping troops in Iraq will scare them off. Concentrate more UN troops in sensetive areas like Iran-Iraq border areas.

quote:

Syria would feel free to return to its predations in Lebanon and to unleash Hezbollah on Israel. Even allies like Turkey might feel compelled to take unilateral, albeit counterproductive steps, such as intervening in northern Iraq to protect their interests. Every country in the Middle East would make its own new calculation of how much it could afford to support U.S. interests. Some would make their own private deals with al Qaeda, or at a minimum stop aiding us in our pursuit of Islamists.

US should come out with clear and bold statement that even though it is leaving Iraq for good, but that dosent mean it wont protect Iraq and Israels interest and integrity, any country try to take advantage of this withdrawl should better beware that we will keep a close eye on you. So you Syria, Turkey dont dare to touch Iraq because we can and will send our army back anytime if you enter its soil.

quote:

� We would lose all credibility with Muslim reformers. The Mideast is now undergoing a political evolution in which the clear majority, even if skeptical of U.S. motives, agrees with the goal of more democracy and accountable government. They have watched as millions of Iraqis have literally risked their lives to vote and otherwise support the project. Having seen those Iraqis later betrayed, other would-be reformers would not gamble their futures on American support. Nothing could be worse in the battle for Muslim "hearts and minds" than to betray our most natural allies.

They already feel betrayed. US has already lost all its credibility whatsoever. Noone respects US anymore.

quote:

� We would invite more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil.

US did that the day it entered Iraq. Let the present generation of Iraqi kids grow up, all the kids who have lost their dad/sister/mom in this war.... will grow up to be a terrorist one day. All the best.

quote:

We could go on, ....

Yeah, give you some more time, and you will come out with some new reason to invade Japan now. We know you could go on and on...

quote:

The poison of radical Islam will spread far and wide across borders if it can make even a plausible claim to being on the ascendancy, and nothing would show that more than the retreat of America from Iraq.

The poison of radical Islam? What are you trying to say? Invade China if you have balls; they have radical government too. Everyone dosen't want your formula of 'freedom'.

quote:

We still believe victory in Iraq is possible, indeed likely, notwithstanding its costs and difficulties.

Bullshit.

quote:

But the desire among so many of our political elites to repudiate Mr. Bush and his foreign policy is creating a dangerous public pessimism that could yet lead to defeat--a defeat whose price would be paid by all Americans, and for years to come.

You guys already profited much from the 'oil' you get from Iraq and you will be getting, so dont be concerned about the 'price'.

The job is not done yet in Iraq, U.S cant just pull out right now. It doesnt matter if you support the war or not, if we pull out now, it will be a mess there and a terrorist shelter.

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan if we pull out now, it will be a mess there and a terrorist shelter.

Are you blind?it is already happening man.

On one hand i would like the US to stay thare for a while to try and fix the mess it made and learn they are not omnipotent and cant fix everything.

On the other hand i really think they messed up so much up until now that they cant fix it and staying there will only make things worse. So i woted yes, i belive they should pull out before things get any worse.

I said "no". Only because it would really make us look bad. the world would call us "Quitters".

And that is not good.

If by chance, we do pull out sooner than expected, I would certainly hope we would provide humanitarian aid to the Iraqi people. A civil war is no fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers A civil war is no fun.

This administration is now trying to convince the world just like they did with the whole WMD bullshit, that having a civil war is something normal and it is part of the path of democracy.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer This administration is now trying to convince the world just like they did with the whole WMD bullshit, that having a civil war is something normal and it is part of the path of democracy.

Well, in my opinion, it's going to settle a very long conflict between these two sects in this country. Even though I would never wish a civil war on any country, history proves that civil wars create a period of stability.

i dont know well enough either way to make a proper judgement. i dont think anyone can guarantee the violence will lessen with american withdrawal; and if they do leave and the country destroys itself...

so ill say a tentative \'no\' for the time being, things seem so delicate i think the iraqi police & armed forces need american support to quell the violence. id hate to think how much damage could be done to the country without american protection *thinks of saddam lighting kuwaiti oil wells*

uh huh...yeah?...ok?...you sure? No WMDs in Iraq, eh?...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...glance&n=283155

Without exaggeration, I must say that this may be the most important book of the year. Why would I make such a strong claim? Read on....

Author Georges Sada was that rare honest Iraqi government insider during Saddam Hussein's reign who was tolerated despite his candor ... in fact, he even gained Saddam's trust, even though he frequently bucked the will of the iron-fisted dictator. In General Sada's unique position, he was able to observe some of the worst of Saddam's behavior and trickery and confirms in this book not only the existence of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), but also the extraordinary lengths that Saddam went to hide these weapons. He blows the cover off of the United Nations officials and their craven and corrupt complicity in Hussein's schemes to hide his own murderous intents while lining their own pockets.

As one reads, one has the sense that General Sada is a loyal Iraqi who loves his nation and his countrymen, who writes out of a sense of grief, anger, and alarm over what Saddam perpetrated. Sada's book is a timely warning against complacency towards the terrorist insurgents who would do all they could to neuter America, enslave the Middle East, and cannibalize Iraq. For all of those who have naively and ignorantly bleated about the "lack of WMDs" or America's "phony" reasons for going to war, this book is a real shocker ... a much-needed wake-up call ... a painful, but potentially life-saving eye-opener.

I hope that Joel Stein, the LA TIMES columnist who confesses to "not supporting our troops" will read a copy of this book immediately. Again, I cannot adequately convey the sense of urgency I feel about the importance of this book. Read it for yourself and see what I am talking about.

One interesting note: as a Christian, General Sada was in a tiny minority among Saddam's inner circle, surrounded by Iraqi leaders who cynically and callously used Islam as a mask for their own twisted and sadistic ends. Writing as a man of faith, Sada has the unique ability to draw hope and redemption out of difficult and tragic circumstances. Far from being depressing, this book is ultimately uplifiting and hopeful.

As others have noted, there is growing evidence from many sources to verify General Sada's claims. Of particular note are tapes of more than 3,000 hours of Saddam Hussein meeting with his war cabinet and millions of pages of documents that contain vital information about Saddam's WMD program and plans for transporting the WMDs out of the country in order to dupe the weapons inspectors....

American and world citizens must demand that these tapes and documents be immediately released, translated, and analyzed in their entirety. So many politicians and media "experts" have staked their careers on a lie: "No WMDs existed." It's time for the truth to come out and for the problem to be resolved. The world will not get a second chance.

Thanks, General Sada, for having the courage and integrity to write such an important, informative, and ultimately redemptive book.


as much as it's mean to be a joke, the Daily Show with Jon Stewart is more educating than most others. and Georges Sada said yesterday (as a guest, after jon stewart said that this is shocking news) that this will spread and people will know the truth.

so a mujahideen or a GENERAL IN THE IRAQI ARMY? I'd trust the General

While I believe the war created something worse than before, Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer & was a horrible excuse for a leader, but what about the leader of North Korea, isn't he worse, and what about Iran, they're a bigger threat to the world than Iraq ever was, and Iran is the worlds largest financial supporter of terrorism.

While I think all the problems were experiencing now are the result of the Bush administration being so excited about starting the war, that they refused to listen to the warnings from the Pentagon about a possible civil war.

Now that were there, it is our responsibility to fix Iraq, because after we insulted the rest of the world ( ex. changed the name of "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" because France disagreed with us ) no body else is going to take the lead of fixing Iraq. If we leave Iraq the way it is, it will be a massive breeding ground for terrorists.

Purple,

Two questions:

1) Do you believe with the statement in the article that a withdrawl from Iraq will be viewed in the eyes of Osama bin Laden as a victory?
2) Do you still believe the US should withdraw without a commitment from the UN or other international participants to replace them?

I feel fucking ignored

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto I feel fucking ignored

Not a lot of people watch the hosts Jon Stewart has in his show.

I might check that book later on.

As for the poll, I voted no. Finish the job, whatever that may be.

quote:

Originally posted by sensorium Not a lot of people watch the hosts Jon Stewart has in his show. I might check that book later on. As for the poll, I voted no. Finish the job, whatever that may be.

are u high? have you any clue as to how many people watch the show to see who's the guest? as is the case with SNL's musicians and guests on the leno and letterman shows.

anyways, read what it's about at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto are u high? have you any clue as to how many people watch the show to see who's the guest? as is the case with SNL's musicians and guests on the leno and letterman shows. anyways, read what it's about at least.

I was just trying to post an idea as to why your post was ignored.

I did watch the interview and the book I might read later on, if time allows it. Don't get me wrong, it seems interesting but I'm currently reading this Spanish classic which I want to keep focus on.

quote:

Originally posted by sensorium I was just trying to post an idea as to why your post was ignored. I did watch the interview and the book I might read later on, if time allows it. Don't get me wrong, it seems interesting but I'm currently reading this Spanish classic which I want to keep focus on.

oh, sorry if i came off being offensive. that definatly wasn't my intention. perhaps the world isn't ready for the truth . i picked up that book today and i was in line for like an hour and everyone was making a comotion about it actually.

No worries man.

I'll wait for your review of the book before deciding to buy it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by sensorium No worries man. I'll wait for your review of the book before deciding to buy it or not.

haha shucks thanks. it's good so far. i think i'll only be taking seriously if/when the tapes surface. but im in shock at what kinda turning point this bit of news is. this will also give a million crediblity points to the IDF and the Mossad who have both been saying that the weapons were moved to Syria on the eve of the war (amongst many other people).

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto oh, sorry if i came off being offensive. that definatly wasn't my intention. perhaps the world isn't ready for the truth . i picked up that book today and i was in line for like an hour and everyone was making a comotion about it actually.

I guess that explains why I can't find it up here in Canada...

I'm very interested in what he has to say...

quote:

Originally posted by Shamen DJ's While I believe the war created something worse than before, Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer & was a horrible excuse for a leader, but what about the leader of North Korea, isn't he worse, and what about Iran, they're a bigger threat to the world than Iraq ever was, and Iran is the worlds largest financial supporter of terrorism.

There are many bad governments all over the world that kill thousands of their citizens. Look at some of the situations in South America. Reasons the US went for Saddam are simple...

Money

They could liberate people in their own backward, but the administration chooses to go the profitable rought. And look at the results. The administration tried to lie to the people to legitamize their war, but it all turned out to be a lie. Know their legitamacy is obvious. I can't believe people were stupid enough to believe in this administration.

quote:

Originally posted by OurManFlint There are many bad governments all over the world that kill thousands of their citizens. Look at some of the situations in South America. Reasons the US went for Saddam are simple... Money They could liberate people in their own backward, but the administration chooses to go the profitable rought. And look at the results. The administration tried to lie to the people to legitamize their war, but it all turned out to be a lie. Know their legitamacy is obvious. I can't believe people were stupid enough to believe in this administration.

uh-huh. the profitable route? sorry, could you explain further as to how the profits are being made in the iraq war? a war that is costing trillions?

quote:

Originally posted by OurManFlint There are many bad governments all over the world that kill thousands of their citizens. Look at some of the situations in South America. Reasons the US went for Saddam are simple... Money They could liberate people in their own backward, but the administration chooses to go the profitable rought. And look at the results. The administration tried to lie to the people to legitamize their war, but it all turned out to be a lie. Know their legitamacy is obvious. I can't believe people were stupid enough to believe in this administration.

as someone who buys political books left and right (no pun intended) i could recommend u quiet a few that will disown your claim that heliburton is supposedly making money of this

cause we aren't.

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