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israel & lebanon

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Yes it is :<( And our Government better not stick our nose into it like they always do. It's their Holy Land. Not ours. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it's none of our business. We don't belong getting involved. That's been our problem for so long. Just my $.02. and no more political discussion from me.

Well the Middle East is a mess and we couldn't do anything even if we wanted to since The US Army is so streched out at the moment

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Originally posted by BitchBoyNYC Yes it is :<( And our Government better not stick our nose into it like they always do. It's their Holy Land. Not ours. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it's none of our business. We don't belong getting involved. That's been our problem for so long. Just my $.02. and no more political discussion from me.

when it's our apache helicopters, submarines and armaments that israel wields, it's safe to say we're more than involved...

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Originally posted by BitchBoyNYC Yes it is :<( And our Government better not stick our nose into it like they always do. It's their Holy Land. Not ours. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it's none of our business. We don't belong getting involved. That's been our problem for so long. Just my $.02. and no more political discussion from me.

Actually its the holy land for pretty much every western religion.

this conflict is not about religion

I do believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg lets just hope that Hezbollah doesnt transport the 2 Israeli prisoners into Iran...then we have a war on our hands for sure.

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Originally posted by DJ Charlie this conflict is not about religion

Sadly, I dont think thats true

Well i certainly am not happy about anyone suffering or dying anywhere...but witnessing other countries invading each other and hurting each other for no other reason than some outdated tradition sort of makes me feel better...well less embarassed... to be an american.

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Originally posted by Insomnia`SF Well i certainly am not happy about anyone suffering or dying anywhere...but witnessing other countries invading each other and hurting each other for no other reason than some outdated tradition sort of makes me feel better...well less embarrassed... to be an american.

Although I shouldn't be laughing, since among the people you hang out with, such comments are probably the norm. In all seriousness, what kind of a comment is that? I just can't get my mind around it because it's so unbelievable. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that came out wrong.

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My personal thoughts are that this is another time Israel overstepped all boundaries and is using the shadow of the United States looming in the background as a force field to protect itself as it instigates war. Many of its actions in Gaza in the past few weeks have been inexcusable and its actions in Lebanon will continue to be. The most frustrating thing is watching the UN spew fire out of its ass without getting anything done. Also watching Bolton using the U.S. veto - OF COURSE - in the Security Council to nix a resolution calling for a halt to Israeli action, stating that not enough demands were placed on both sides. He might as well have stood up and announced that because of the large amount of American money invested in Israel, he can't possibly allow Palestinians to rocket it all away, so sorry, he vetoes. Which will send me on another rant about how the reason nothing ever gets fixed is because in politics, there is no such thing as swallowing pride, making concessions, or doing anything for the good of innocent people, prosperity, and peace. There is only pride, sugar-coating, hissy fits, and keeping up a country's image no matter what collateral damage in the form of dead children comes about. Makes me want to work at the UN and makes me want to throw up at the same time.

And of course Hezbollah is only happy that violence is increasing. Another example of the ineffectiveness of the UN: resolution 6 years ago calling for Hezbollah to stop guerrilla violence against Israel - no heed paid. So Israel withdrew from Lebanon upon the promise of cease-fire and they are not expected to defend as attacks continue? Of course Hezbollah is only happy that Israel has snapped now and is actually defending itself against terrorists instead of taking it, because now Hez can get what it wants: Israelis dead, constant war, fighting for an incomprehensible cause, the destruction of all who do not believe what they believe.

The blame is almost equal in the situation, in the action and in the reaction. Of course, there is only one solution: relocate Israel into North Dakota!!!

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Originally posted by DJ Charlie this conflict is not about religion

You're kidding right?

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Originally posted by ProggieGuy You're kidding right?

I think what he's saying is that Hezbollah attacks Israel because it occupied Lebanon, whereas the reason for the occupation was because of strikes on Israel that Israel needed to thwart... So it's true that superficially, this is about sovereignty and the right to be independent and protect your country... religion becomes involved in a historical sense, about the Holy Land and centuries-old conflict. But if you think it hasn't extended beyond religion by now, you are mistaken...

colibri, your PM box is full, and I study European Politics & Journalism

i agree with alisa..

politics make me depressed

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Originally posted by Miss Bliss I think what he's saying is that Hezbollah attacks Israel because it occupied Lebanon, whereas the reason for the occupation was because of strikes on Israel that Israel needed to thwart... So it's true that superficially, this is about sovereignty and the right to be independent and protect your country... religion becomes involved in a historical sense, about the Holy Land and centuries-old conflict. But if you think it hasn't extended beyond religion by now, you are mistaken...

I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know.

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Originally posted by ProggieGuy I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know.

Guessing your refering to Lebanon.....but think of Israel living in a country where everyone from Morocco to Pakistan hates you and at any given day you can be blown to bits there are stats(that i cant be bothered looking for) that are astonishing on "1 in so many" will die from an act of terrorism. These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be. They have a right to defend themselves when people sneak into their country take their soldiers and send missles into their cities.

quote:

Originally posted by ProggieGuy I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know.

I love reading the New York Times, Int'l Herald Tribune, Time, US News, Le Monde, etc. humanitarian-type specials from journalists brave enough to venture in and report on what's really happening in the average neighborhood in crisis... I work a lot with human rights at my internship with an org called UNAUSA too, so I am very sensitive to it believe me. It makes me angry at inequality when some of the things an average citizen says are apalling but it's because of what he's lost...

And that's why the mistakes the officials make, hurting civilians, bombing indiscriminately and overusing force are huge, huge, huge mistakes that ferment trouble for the future - cause when the children grow up......

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Originally posted by InterMilan31 These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be.

that's the risk you run when occupy someone else's land...

all conversations regarding the israeli conflict must have as their starting point the fact that palestinians are an occupied people. ignoring this salient fact gives rise to a number of untenable positions rooted in messianic pretense and mythology. if you believe that god promised israel the land they're occupying, then any further discussions are moot.

israel and the u.s. hold all the cards, yet time and again they choose either force or meretricious peace offers. culturally, palestinians are secular people for whom radicalism has become the only avenue of resistance. bad policy and a severe misunderstanding of the people a stronger nation is dealing with has always caused radicalization where there had been little to none (see vietnam, iran, and iraq, to name but a few...)

whatever their rhetorical flourishes, the majority of arab countries realize that israel isn't going anywhere. in fact, the arab league has offered unilateral recognition of israel, peace agreements, and all the other trappings of normal diplomacy in exchange for israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders and allowing for the creation of a contiguous palestinian state.

israel of course has never agreed to this, instead offering chunks of land bisected by israeli highways that would render any palestinian state a bantustan of little villages (this was the vaunted 90% land offer made to arafat) -- and let's not forget the nifty wall being built...

in gaza, israel made a showy withdrawal, yet continued to control gaza's airspace, borders, and ports. with the help of the u.s., it also froze the PA's and Hamas's assetts, so the fledgling government couldn't pay its civil servants or manage its bureaucratic apparratus. and then they wonder why it failed...

what the u.s. should do is get realistic.
tell israel to withdraw back to '67 borders and give the palestinians a real country already, under threat of severe financial and military disinvestment. the same financial penalties would also go into effect for every settlement israel builds and every u.n. resolution it violates.

as the same time it does this, the u.s. should tell palestinians and their sponsors, that it will increase israel's aid for every suicide bombing or attack on israel. it would also demand that all of israel's neighbors recognize it diplomatically and renounce violence.

money talks.

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Originally posted by Miss Bliss And that's why the mistakes the officials make, hurting civilians, bombing indiscriminately and overusing force are huge, huge, huge mistakes that ferment trouble for the future - cause when the children grow up......

....it turns into a never ending cycle.

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Originally posted by InterMilan31 Guessing your refering to Lebanon.....but think of Israel living in a country where everyone from Morocco to Pakistan hates you and at any given day you can be blown to bits there are stats(that i cant be bothered looking for) that are astonishing on "1 in so many" will die from an act of terrorism. These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be. They have a right to defend themselves when people sneak into their country take their soldiers and send missles into their cities.

Israelis are not the only ones threatened, don't you think some of the Lebanese view Israel's attacks as acts of terrorism? One of my best friends is a Lebanese Christian and her grandma went on vacation to Lebanon and might not be able to leave before her next chemo treatment in the US. Lebanon is not an overwhelming Muslim state and there are particular populations (some of which might be Muslim) that do not support Hezbollah and those are the ones suffering in this entire struggle.

Disclaimer: I'm not calling the Israeli army terrorist and completely agree that the country has the right to defend themselves but since the entire situation is so messed up there is a lot of gray

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Originally posted by chi6me8ra Israelis are not the only ones threatened, don't you think some of the Lebanese view Israel's attacks as acts of terrorism? One of my best friends is a Lebanese Christian and her grandma went on vacation to Lebanon and might not be able to leave before her next chemo treatment in the US. Lebanon is not an overwhelming Muslim state and there are particular populations (some of which might be Muslim) that do not support Hezbollah and those are the ones suffering in this entire struggle. Disclaimer: I'm not calling the Israeli army terrorist and completely agree that the country has the right to defend themselves but since the entire situation is so messed up there is a lot of gray

Well Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to occupy most of the south of Lebanon is it not? To me they brought this on to themselves. One of the reasons why the Beruit airport being hit is because of the incoming of artilary and moneys for Hezbollah. Lebanon knew what Hezbollah's goals where they are by no means innocent. Also I think this is a bit of a dead argument since that in war many innocent people die which Im not condoning that is just what happens blame the government and in this case Hezbollah. Also Hezbollah like many terrorist groups sets up shop in apartment buildings. For what I only can think as "incognito" and when attacked looks bad on the others.

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Originally posted by InterMilan31 Well Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to occupy most of the south of Lebanon is it not? To me they brought this on to themselves. One of the reasons why the Beruit airport being hit is because of the incoming of artilary and moneys for Hezbollah. Lebanon knew what Hezbollah's goals where they are by no means innocent. Also I think this is a bit of a dead argument since that in war many innocent people die which Im not condoning that is just what happens blame the government and in this case Hezbollah. Also Hezbollah like many terrorist groups sets up shop in apartment buildings. For what I only can think as "incognito" and when attacked looks bad on the others.

I agree that Lebanon allowed Hezbollah control parts of the country, but it looks like a proxy war/conflict (whatever you want to call it) being fought in Lebanon and both sides don't merely look bad.

Also, the US government has helped many a terrorist so we aren't that much better.

quote:

Originally posted by Konijn that's the risk you run when occupy someone else's land... all conversations regarding the israeli conflict must have as their starting point the fact that palestinians are an occupied people. ignoring this salient fact gives rise to a number of untenable positions rooted in messianic pretense and mythology. if you believe that god promised israel the land they're occupying, then any further discussions are moot. israel and the u.s. hold all the cards, yet time and again they choose either force or meretricious peace offers. culturally, palestinians are secular people for whom radicalism has become the only avenue of resistance. bad policy and a severe misunderstanding of the people a stronger nation is dealing with has always caused radicalization where there had been little to none (see vietnam, iran, and iraq, to name but a few...) whatever their rhetorical flourishes, the majority of arab countries realize that israel isn't going anywhere. in fact, the arab league has offered unilateral recognition of israel, peace agreements, and all the other trappings of normal diplomacy in exchange for israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders and allowing for the creation of a contiguous palestinian state. israel of course has never agreed to this, instead offering chunks of land bisected by israeli highways that would render any palestinian state a bantustan of little villages (this was the vaunted 90% land offer made to arafat) -- and let's not forget the nifty wall being built... in gaza, israel made a showy withdrawal, yet continued to control gaza's airspace, borders, and ports. with the help of the u.s., it also froze the PA's and Hamas's assetts, so the fledgling government couldn't pay its civil servants or manage its bureaucratic apparratus. and then they wonder why it failed... what the u.s. should do is get realistic. tell israel to withdraw back to '67 borders and give the palestinians a real country already, under threat of severe financial and military disinvestment. the same financial penalties would also go into effect for every settlement israel builds and every u.n. resolution it violates. as the same time it does this, the u.s. should tell palestinians and their sponsors, that it will increase israel's aid for every suicide bombing or attack on israel. it would also demand that all of israel's neighbors recognize it diplomatically and renounce violence. money talks.

I really dont agree with this. Im in no way pro-palestine. as you say they result to radical acts to get their voice heard but really when you bomb a bus continously do you think you will get someones ear or just make them even madder.

The whole relgion thing is just a complete issue to me since im a Atheist but its very important to these people. This territory has been fought over for years and years nothing will change.

Also your solution is a bit wishy washy. You really think Syria/Palestine are going to stick with the renouncing of violence and recognize it diplomatically. Never has happend throughout history and will not start now. Maybe if it did happen the same situation that happend in Lebanon (after Israeli withdraw Lebanon took back promises lead us here)

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Originally posted by Konijn in gaza, israel made a showy withdrawal, yet continued to control gaza's airspace, borders, and ports. with the help of the u.s., it also froze the PA's and Hamas's assetts, so the fledgling government couldn't pay its civil servants or manage its bureaucratic apparratus. and then they wonder why it failed... money talks.

As well as "detain" (kidnap) Hamas diplomats (civilians) as action in exchange for the "kidnapping" (seizure) of an Israeli fighter (soldier) Fair..? hmm... compare the parentheses...

quote:

what the u.s. should do is get realistic. tell israel to withdraw back to '67 borders and give the palestinians a real country already, under threat of severe financial and military disinvestment. the same financial penalties would also go into effect for every settlement israel builds and every u.n. resolution it violates. as the same time it does this, the u.s. should tell palestinians and their sponsors, that it will increase israel's aid for every suicide bombing or attack on israel. it would also demand that all of israel's neighbors recognize it diplomatically and renounce violence. money talks.

Yes sir, money does talk, such as oil prices, which the US must keep down by keeping Israel as a bulwark of resistance in the MI and controlling the rest of the area's states... and the billions invested by American companies that set up shop there, esp. computers & technology, in Israel... so yes, money does talk, to the opposite effect of your suggestion... which has no basis in reality - look at Bush, Rice, & Bolton - unless the rest of the world applies more pressure than is imagineable, but I know you knew that

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