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Ni Fm-8 - Holly Hawtness!!! Wow!!!!

Just had a chance to play around with NI FM-8 (Final RTM version) at my friend's house (he's a NI official beta tester). All I can say is WOW.

Blows away every imaginable VSTi available atm. Night and day (literally and visually) difference from FM-7. Words cannot really describe the sounds its capable of generating. It has a built in arp/sequencer, customizable scale, and all kinds of freaky stuff.

The soundbanks (out of the box) are mind blowing and ready to use without tweaking. Inspiration tools on the tap. You can just hold one key and trip to the sound morphing and changing and constantly evolving. Extremely powerful and also has ability to be rather simple (tho a bit limited). You can switch between "advanced" and "newbie" layout, giving you more or less of control over parameters.

You also have morph function, sort of reminescent of Sequential Prophet VS joystick or Roland V-Synth time trip pad or Korg Z1 pad. GUI is also extremely well designed and looks reminescent of Virus Ti Polar - extremely cool looking!!!

Interesting tidbit (albeit somewhat unofficial). According to some source, apparently the software "calls home" upon start up to authenticate. This is done to prevent piracy. Its also rumored to have a scan/report/disable feature for any cracked/illegal NI plug-ins. This is a bit murky at the moment but the way it was explained, apparently software has ability to detect "warezed" versions of NI plug ins and disable them. So, if you're running some *cough* evaluation that never expires *cough* versions of NI software and plan to get a legal version of FM-8 it may disable your warez plug ins.

Hopefully you're not that type of bad person who runs illegal software and plan to buy a legal copy of FM-8, in which case you'll be definitely happy. It's probably one of the best (if not the best) VSTi I ever had a pleasure of playing with. I could definitely make tracks on the fly and get inspiration for others without much tweaking. Some patches are down-right prog/trance oriented, while other evolving sounds are most likely geared towards studio/film production. Some patches are down right HAUNTING and Eerie!

Overall, I'd rate it 9/10 (nine for cheeky copy right protection and potential "spying" ability). Get ready, this one will be a scorcher.

Can't wait

Oh, and p.s little gotcha: apparently FM-8 RTM contained some bugs which were not eliminated until after the "Gold image" was pressed and therefore included on the released image. You'll need to patch it right out of the box but it's no biggy.

hehe thanks for the review.

i'm waiting for NI to ship me all the new updates. according to them they will release the new products on october the 13th.

hmm sounds tempting to purchase lol

Sound clips of it in action for anyone who's interested:

http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=fm8_us

Re: Ni Fm-8 - Holly Hawtness!!! Wow!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 ...apparently software has ability to detect "warezed" versions of NI plug ins and disable them. So, if you're running some *cough* evaluation that never expires *cough* versions of NI software and plan to get a legal version of FM-8 it may disable your warez plug ins.

For real? You're saying it actually checks and modifies other software on your machine?

Christ, haven't these companies learned anything from Sony's Rootkit debacle? Computers are the private property of their owners, and their property rights aren't negated by a clickwrap license. I've got no problem with any copy protection schemes within a piece of software but once they start operating outside of it then they're on very contentious legal and moral ground.

If what you say is true and accurate then NI has gone even further down the road of treating its paying customers like criminals. I won't continue to give money to a company that takes such an attitude. And somehow I get the feeling that this idea was concoted by some functionally-illiterate Director Of Product Enhancements (DOPE) who's never spent a second actually working on the product itself.

Phoning home to disable itself: stupid but fine. Phoning home to cripple other software, even software from the same company: not cool.

Yea. That's pretty bad. I was hearing some rumors that Cubase SX3/Nuendo 3 could have been a lot faster without the needs for a USB key authorization.

Anyway. If this is indeed true... it's very un-user friendly and a bit paranoid. It's also very dumb.

A lot. A LOT. If not most professional studio computers are not connected to the internet so there isn't a risk of their systems being infected. Even my buddy's home studio computer isn't connected to the internet. So if it has to phone-home to authenticate itself. Are you hosed?

Let us know more EMC^2 if you buy it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJFreaq That's pretty bad. I was hearing some rumors that Cubase SX3/Nuendo 3 could have been a lot faster without the needs for a USB key authorization.

Many applications are slowed down by their security checks. The thing with Cubase and Nuendo (according to the "crackers") is that it's insane how many checks they have in the code and that it slows down the app more than 50 %. And one might say: Cubase and Nuendo SX 3 have been cracked anyway, so why does Steinberg even bother spending so much (and slowing down the app) on security in the software? It's always claimed that "THIS time it's really uncrackable" and it's always cracked anyway (or dongle emulated)...

Btw: The "funny story" with an older version of Cubase (VST5 or SX1 maybe) was that Steinberg had a lot of bugs in their version, but a lot of these were fixed by the crackers in the cracked version. So I actually found myself in a situation where I had bought a legit copy of the software, but indeed was using the cracked copy of the same version. It was running more stable. Crazy world... I know it might not have been legal, but I didn't have any moral or ethical issues as long as I'd paid for a copy.

I can understand that software developers feel a need of protecting themselves, but really... I think the Cubase SX 3 example really shows that if someone wants to crack the software - it WILL eventually get cracked.

And I totally agree with you and DigiNut about the FM8 protection. I think it's WAY beyond the line to have an application (bought legally) check for warez on your computer. I sincerely hope that spyware and anti-virus programs will treat this like spyware and thus put pressure on NI to change the behaviour.

I don't get it anyway: How many people will actually pay for the FM8 but use other applications illegally? I think most persons are either freeriders or good, paying customers. Or maybe there are some out there using warez for a month or two, before they go and buy the software - but is that really so bad for the developers?

And on a different note, if software crackers are able to crack high end security and encryption algorithms, they are obviously also able to modify the FM8 so the "check for warez"-behaviour is bypassed. This kind of security check in an application almost screams "please crack me" to all the crackers out there. Think this is a wrong move by NI.

Regards

I think some people don't have a lot of money, so they get cracked software until they can afford the real stuff. That seems a moral option to me, if you spending all your money on the industry anyway, I figure your already doing the best you can. I also agree with diginut, if this is true (and it still is a big if) that would be really crap I'm still saving for the Komplete 4 package and I was really glad when I heard about it, now I'm having second thoughts

Yeah make the software cheaper or accept piracy, they wouldnt sell anymore legal versions anyway with these kind of piracy protections because the warez people cant afford it anyway

*btw my software is all legal


*well some of it

I just discovered FM7...always thought it's too hard to program damnit I feel like "Where FM7 all my life's been?" and now it's almost time to get FM8 I should start saving up money for it :-/

The thing about disabling software, I believe at this time it is suposedly capable of killing only NI warez, not other vendors'. However, if this trend catches on, you'd see a lot more music soft companies jump on board to have a unified approach to warez'd software.

I was also dumbfounded by this "feature", as most of the studio computers will not be connected to the internet - so, does that mean that NI are willing to lose business of those "few non-connected" customers, than give it away for free to thousands, willing to download illegal version.

This is all unconfirmed and unofficial at this time but based on what I've seen so far, at the very least this is what it is capable of doing if you plan to run the automated update built into the software.

Basically, here's what I saw:

Upon startup, the software tries to connect to NI website and check for updates. As part of that process (I presume, based on given info), it may have a list of plugins running on your system and at that time it may report them or have them disabled, based on what NI choses to do on their end. Sort of like when XP updates are now pulled to your system, XP update site does a "Genuine XP" validation - you must install XP tool to check to make sure you have a legal copy of XP, otherwise you don't get updates.

I think this "update" feature can be disabled tho, I just don't see NI being soooooooooo strict with its software, considering that warez are known to bring in more business than lost. Sure, few will continue running illegal copies, but most folks who are given a prospect of free updates, plus features like soundbanks or extra goodies may find it worth their investment to buy a legal copy.

Personally, I ran a warezed copy of every major DAW application, before deciding wich one I would want to buy. Simply because the trial ware was either limited or did not give me enough time to convince myself which program would work best for me. After I test drove all apps and determined which one was better, I went out and bought the legal copy and got rid of the warezed versions.

I'll try to get more info about this "feature" though over the next few days and report back.

quote:

Originally posted by DJFreaq Yea. That's pretty bad. I was hearing some rumors that Cubase SX3/Nuendo 3 could have been a lot faster without the needs for a USB key authorization.

Having used both, I must say it didn't feel any slower. It wouldn't make much sense either since the cracked version is an emulation of the dongle. It needs access to the dongle.

I wouldn't expect a cracked version of sx4 (at least not soon after the release)

The sound clips of fm8 sound hot indeed, their creativity seems endless.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 I just don't see NI being soooooooooo strict with its software, considering that warez are known to bring in more business than lost.

lol, based on what information? that's like saying mp3 was good for the music industry.

quote:

Originally posted by DeZmA I wouldn't expect a cracked version of sx4 (at least not soon after the release)

H2O (if you don't know who they are, then you're probably lying to yourself) has said they aren't going to crack any more dongle stuff. Cubase SX3/Nuendo 3 and Reaktor 5 among a few others was their last big endeavour...

...that's what they say anyway. The point is, if Cubase 4 uses the EXACT same method of protection (ie. Synchrosoft, which it probably will since Synchrosoft most likely has a nice juicy contract with them) then chances are it'll be cracked, just like the best of them.

My point is, try before buy will be here forever. As long as someone makes some "un-crackable" protection software... crackers will be right there behind them finding away to crack it.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 I'll try to get more info about this "feature" though over the next few days and report back.

Please do EMC!

H20 are officially out of the scene afaik...not that they won't crack dongle stuff...they won't crack anything anymore...(afaik)


not that I'm into warez...but everyone likes to try before buy...

quote:

Originally posted by BOOsTER H20 are officially out of the scene afaik...not that they won't crack dongle stuff...they won't crack anything anymore...(afaik) not that I'm into warez...but everyone likes to try before buy...

However the nfo on their last release promised us one big last release but nothing really came of it. I personally think they where behind the recent AIR stuff.

Most of you will prob disagree but however much we don't like what the software companys are doing if the disable cracks stuff is true I really carn't blame them and in some ways I kind of support it.

Lucky for me the only other NI stuff I got is Kontakt whicch is legal.

Piracy protection software is a facisnating thing.

In fact. The EULA is really odd.

When you read one. It says that the only holder of rights to their software IS YOU. And that you can't re-sell it to someone else later on if you're not fond of what you bought.

This directly contradicts the way goods have been exchanged for years.

If I bought a guitar, and I wasn't happy with it. I'd probably sell it to my buddy. Or sell it on ebay.

But for some reason software companies have decided that intellectual property doesn't work that way. Which I find exteremly frustrating and very un-user friendly.

The goal of every product is to make the end user happy because now they have a service. And make the creator of the product happy because now they have a profit. The whole concept of the EULA says "The customer ISN'T right."

Or... "The customer DOESN'T have rights to the property HE owns."

Pretty odd huh? Very snobby infact. Software land is much like a fancy restaurant. If you don't have a nice suit, well you can't dine there buddy.



I'm not condoing software piracy. But lets face the marketing facts.

SOFTWARE IS NOT WORTH WHAT THEY SELL IT FOR. It's one of the biggest artificial markets I've seen. And I'm only 20, and I've grown up in this era of information technology.

When will companies learn that... if they sold their products for what is was worth... and then re-wrote their EULAs. Everyone would be much happier.

The end user, ME, would be happy.
They would be happy.

The dot.com bubble broke, and it's libal to break again. When will the software price bubble break?

Woops. Pretty off topic. But my grandfather and I have talked a lot about this subject and it's something that fascinates me.

kind of a stupid question, but wanted to double check if FM-8 was going to be able to load FM-7 patches?

Think about the skill needed, and how much time is spent creating the products. Who's going to do *all of that* for absolutely nothing, and make a quality product as well?

Besides, when you pay for their software, you are funding the company so that they can make even better software later. Plus you get access to a community, and great customer service.

Why not pay them?

For the record, I'm not condoning piracy of any kind and I'm certainly not suggesting an attitude of "sell it cheaper or else". That's just blaming the victim.

My position on protection schemes is that anything which goes beyond a simple serial/key is overkill as it bloats the application and inconveniences paying users. However, I support the author's right to implement any protection scheme they like as long as it doesn't try to access or modify any data that isn't related to its specific requirements.

Serial number = fine
Dongle = annoying, but fine
WPA = oppressive, but fair
Phoning home = fine, as long as no identifiable data is sent

Anything else = go f*ck yourself. (Includes rootkits, file scans, registry scans and obfuscating registry keys to conceal their purpose, CD checking a la SafeDisc, sending un-hashed IP or MAC addresses or hard drive serial numbers, and so on. Modifying totally unrelated programs or settings is the most flagrant violation I've heard of so far).

Oh, so they want to know who is pirating their software? Tough. Your application is entitled to do f*cking detective work on my machine. That's called spyware and malware.

Steinberg shot themselves in the foot with the dongle crap, since the program actually runs faster with an emulated dongle and hence you're better off running it cracked. But what they did was still within the bounds of legitimate protection. If NI thinks they are going to "check my machine" for anything or "disable" anything, be it warez or anything else, they can suck on my salty left nut. I don't care if this is a feature you can disable. Get a clue you stupid empty suits on the top floors - don't treat your paying customers like criminals.

FM8 looks like a great product. In fact I'm sure it will blow most other synths out of the water. But if they think that justifies this intrusive behaviour, they'll get the double-barrels from yours truly.

I think djfreq post has some very intrseting questions regagarding the EULA. I carn't see why you hae to pay �25 to register second hand software.

I brought atmosphere and despite the original buyer contacting them to inform them that they have sold the software I still had to pay to register it. It would have been a lot less hassle to install a crack.

Same goes for sample cd's. I just spent �30 on a sample cd that was crap. While �30 is not that much why shouldn't I be allowe to re-sell it? A lot of sample cds and soundbanks are a complete rip off.

Look at the syntholgy / vengeance vanguard banks that cost nearly as much as the synth. It's nice to see quality banks for people like adam baker at a much cheaper price.

And speaking of vanguard banks I got 3 yes 3 of the best quality trance banks I own for just 10 euro!!!!! Fantastic

http://www.vstsoundbanks.com/

Sorry to high jack the thread

quote:

Originally posted by Akridrot Think about the skill needed, and how much time is spent creating the products. Who's going to do *all of that* for absolutely nothing, and make a quality product as well?

Being a software engineer/developer myself I know this more intimately than most people here, and you're absolutely right, which is why I say again and again that I'm not advocating piracy or suggesting that it's merely a side-effect of "ripoff" prices, all of which is ludicrous.

But think about what you're saying for a minute. Scanning your system for other "warez", phoning home, and selectively disabling other software. This has to work in any environment. On any machine. This kind of protection would take many man-months to spec out, implement, and fully test.

Don't you figure that they'll be looking to recoup those sunk costs? There is no question that this is going to add to the product cost as well. In a sense, if you buy the application, you are actually paying to be treated like a criminal. Personally, I can't stomach that.

I can't think of anything else to say really other than:

I'm poor, and I guess I should quit complaining about expensive software prices and save up.

I still don't like the EULA. You can't change my mind about that.

Oh and:

Stupid monkey.


EDIT:

Oh DigiNut, you'll probably laugh at this realization but.

I know why people don't like to pay for expensive software.

Because it feels like they're not getting anything TANGIBLE.

I can't really hold a VSTi in my hands... so that right there is a weird psychological effect. It makes me think it's not worth the cash.

I'm sure you've thought of that before, but it makes since why EULAs are written as such. Software programmers know that their software "feels flimsy" so I guess they had to write it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by DJFreaq Because it feels like they're not getting anything TANGIBLE.

Maybe. People pay for services all the time and that's not tangible either.

I'll make like a broken record and say again that this is not in any way a defense of software piracy, but I think if there's any reason people are loath to pay for software it's that:
- It's often not a truly finished product (i.e. not fully tested);
- The service/support accompanying it is often crap and often costs extra;
- It's simply a lot easier to not get caught than stealing something from a store.

Overreaching copy-protection schemes add a few more reasons:
- The cracked versions often perform better because the protection cripples it;
- Some protection schemes prevent users from exercising their legitimate rights (making a backup copy, reselling, anything to do with the First Sale Rule);
- It's demeaning and inconvenient to users and they're pissed off.

Now, to me, this is more of an argument to simply not use the software as opposed to stealing it. Piracy, in the end, is actually a less effective way of sticking it to the "man" because it generally provides a popularity boost via word-of-mouth advertising. That is why, assuming that the FM8 is part-malware (I realize this is unconfirmed right now), I simply will not touch it.

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