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-- (27 mins symphonic piece) Holding Infinity - Walking In The Crowded Empty Spaces
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(27 mins piece) Holding Infinity - Walking In The Crowded Empty Spaces

DOWNLOAD HERE

Download on the linkie...and if possible leave some feedback :-) will be greatly apreciated

disclaimer: this is NOT a classical piece, nor does it have to be, it's just a very special score, for a few very special moments in my life, all you musical snobs, get over that!

Giving this a listen.

Thanks mate, hope you'll like it

I really enjoyed this, very creative. Totally did not expect it to get into a climax like that at all with the beat and everything. Marvelous work, only thing that seems to stand out is the first 30 seconds seem to have a bit too much low-mid end on them. Might be just me.

09:00 is my favorite part, the synth in that is absolutely gorgeous and full of emotion.

Also I think most of the instruments could use a bit more reverb, I may be wrong though, I like things to have a bit more space in them

Overall great stuff.

Very nice and emotionell! The piano and trumpet sounds great! The only thing I think of, is that you could make it more trancy with more effects. However, enjoyeble 27 minutes!


Takere!

Akia

This is pretty good, I like it! I bet this took a looong friggin time to make huh. Did you use Orchestral? I love that VST.

gwrmarines: oh yeah, indeed I did, but I've also partially tweaked some of the sounds and so on

Akia: great to hear you've liked it

jupiterone: yes you're right about the very beginning sounding a bit unbalanced...but I think it's not anything disasterous
Thanks for praises


oh yeah and just to answer the question about how long it took...

it was about 2-3 months...started as a simple venture into more "classical" music...

Then it developed into this...

I'm sorry to bump this topic (as i's pretty old) but the track has really a special importance to me and I want you to hear it...so please excuse me

I've also checked the link to make sure it still works ...

Very cool, very different, very long. Nothing bad one could say about this track i love the intro.

This sucks lol...sorry man :P

in short, do not make music of this type again. Anyone with any kind of classical training will tell you the same thing. I dont want to appear mean, but when you step into the orchestral genre you are compared with hundreds of years of musical history. if you make electro that "upto par" might be easier to attain. You cannot produce orchestral music without a proper musical education. You clearly have none. I'm not saying every piece must abide by certain rules, however, you must start with rules with which you then break. You dont even KNOW the rules so you dont know how to break them. its like painting. You cant just splatter paint on a canvas randomly and get credit for it unless you have already proved you can do a still life painting with subject matter. I suggest you take the only good thing about this track (that beat loop you have) and fashion a break track out of it. And please never ever put such awful sounding blaring trumpets ontop of soft reverbed piano. Thats about where i stopped listening cuz i had to run to get some tissues to clean up all the barf.


----- Yes you piss of people with musical education when you do stuff like this. Dont think you can get away with it, EVEN on TA just cuz most people havent a clue what counterpoint is, there are the small % of us who end up saving money on our emetic pills cuz we have to put up wiht stuff like this.
cheers
matt

Re: This sucks lol...sorry man :P

quote:

Originally posted by aeonia in short, do not make music of this type again. Anyone with any kind of classical training will tell you the same thing. I dont want to appear mean, but when you step into the orchestral genre you are compared with hundreds of years of musical history. if you make electro that "upto par" might be easier to attain. You cannot produce orchestral music without a proper musical education. You clearly have none. I'm not saying every piece must abide by certain rules, however, you must start with rules with which you then break. You dont even KNOW the rules so you dont know how to break them. its like painting. You cant just splatter paint on a canvas randomly and get credit for it unless you have already proved you can do a still life painting with subject matter. I suggest you take the only good thing about this track (that beat loop you have) and fashion a break track out of it. And please never ever put such awful sounding blaring trumpets ontop of soft reverbed piano. Thats about where i stopped listening cuz i had to run to get some tissues to clean up all the barf. ----- Yes you piss of people with musical education when you do stuff like this. Dont think you can get away with it, EVEN on TA just cuz most people havent a clue what counterpoint is, there are the small % of us who end up saving money on our emetic pills cuz we have to put up wiht stuff like this. cheers matt

You may have musical training, yes. Probably much more than myself and Booster. Something that your training obviously didn't teach you though, is that music is an interpretive art form, just like most every other form of art. One does not have to be trained in said field to be able to create, or appreciate music of any kind.

That is like me saying "Just beacause I am en english major, and you don't type with proper grammar, don't use any type of punctuation in your sentences. Better yet, don't type if you can't do it correctly. It annoys every english major that ever lived. I now forbid you from doing so." That's just stupid, wouldn't you say?

He accomplished what he set out to do, he created a piece of music that was special to him. If other people like it as well, that's great. Had it been perfectly scored, that would have been fine too.
Just remember, somebody had to create the rules of which you speak, they are not set in stone, nor should they be. The world would be a sad place if all music were perfectly structured to a specific set of rules. We would be missing out big time.

Re: Re: This sucks lol...sorry man :P

quote:

Originally posted by P_Kozy You may have musical training, yes. Probably much more than myself and Booster. Something that your training obviously didn't teach you though, is that music is an interpretive art form, just like most every other form of art. One does not have to be trained in said field to be able to create, or appreciate music of any kind. That is like me saying "Just beacause I am en english major, and you don't type with proper grammar, don't use any type of punctuation in your sentences. Better yet, don't type if you can't do it correctly. It annoys every english major that ever lived. I now forbid you from doing so." That's just stupid, wouldn't you say? He accomplished what he set out to do, he created a piece of music that was special to him. If other people like it as well, that's great. Had it been perfectly scored, that would have been fine too. Just remember, somebody had to create the rules of which you speak, they are not set in stone, nor should they be. The world would be a sad place if all music were perfectly structured to a specific set of rules. We would be missing out big time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said that music HAD to be governed by rules (I specifically said that it did NOT have to be, I only advocated that one learn the traditional rules FIRST before doing whatever the hell he or she wants to) and I understand that any combination of sound can be special to someone as a creative enterprise; however, one thing that angers real students of music are people who have not attempted to actually study the workings of harmony and music theory (that have been "discovered" by our musical forerunners and evolved ofer centuries) and then put out a 27 minute "orchestral" track that gets only GOOD reviews. It actually says more about the REVIEWERS understanding of music than the composer!
Also, because this piece uses traditional instruments and is based on traditional harmony (not 12-tone, serial or phrygian) it should be reviewed in regard to the "rules" that govern those musical elements. Even if he is trying to break from these rules, intentionally (say he already knew what deviations he was employing, which he doesn't), even then, I think the piece sounds horrible and evokes little musical talent. My advice IS good: go study music theory, counterpoint, chords, harmony, music history, and famous composers, listen to REAL orchestral music, learn to play an instrument, learn to read music...etc. OR else, compose in a genre the composer actually knows about.
I understand that my comments might anger the composer, but my opinion represents a large majority of music majors and composers of orchestral music. I think that the composer should convert any offense or ill feelings my comments might have aroused into a real passion to learn more and produce a piece that is musically sound.
I resent what the post modern era has done to young people's understanding of what music is. If you are calling me legalistic or conservative, I am far from it. I am a pianist who plays piano backwards, with random objects, and uses mathematical formulas and constants to work out pieces (those sound like crap to the layman but are employing a directed musical system). I only ask that composers (esp of orchestral music) start out with what has been learned before us and then branch out from there.
For all I know the composer could be 10 years old; if this is so... I wish he had mentioned this and I would have wrote a bit less negative review. I do NOT wish to discourage the composer from composing, but only to strive for excellence.
Cheers,
Matt

Dear aeonia,
I don't say this is a proper classical piece, it's just a piece I wrote and I liked, I don't think that makes me being about 10 yrs old an easy guess
First of all, I want to say that I am sorry to offend all of you, who are classicaly trained but well I thought the word symphonic kinda reflects what is in the track...
I have not had the chance to study the music theory where I live, there are far many reasons why not and I don't want to bother you with it.
And btw...I really DO think that your review is a bit too harsh lol, mate make a trance song and I will reply you that the only good thing about your track is that bright hi-hat loop you have there! Damn, would you feel good?
Then again, don't offend the listeners who liked the track, it's just a chilled tune to listen while you want to relax or something, maybe the hair on your neck are standing in terror while listening, but don't say everyone who likes it is an idiot, please, that's just "snobbism".
The other art form I like is bonsai, if you know what it is. It's an art of making a living picture of a mature tree in a pot.
While there's a lot of japanese "styles" which were set centuries ago, many people will do some kind of free style and sometimes, trust me, the little trees which are free of any of the usual japanese styles DO look much better...why? Because they are simply something different.
Then again, I am sorry for using terms like symphonic or orchestral for my track, I think it was by far the most suitable terms to introduce this track in a few words!
And btw, yeah I could have been well pissed off now...but...I am not live with it!

One last thing, I would certainly appreciate if you could point out, what exactly is wrong in the piece, and how could I possibly improve that, if I find out it will make the piece itself better and not take away the "WOW" factor under which was the whole piece produced, I will most certainly try to do something with it and maybe rewrite the piece, but I am quite certain that the breakbeat loop is not the only good thing

P_Kozy: Big thanks to you, mate
pwnage1: thanks to you, too.

Re: This sucks lol...sorry man :P

quote:

Originally posted by aeonia I dont want to appear mean

quote:

Originally posted by aeonia Thats about where i stopped listening cuz i had to run to get some tissues to clean up all the barf.

Criticism is good, but this is downright childish. Go somewhere else you snob

Pokit: oh mate, thanks, I guess I don't need defense, I can stand it without feeling too bad thanks, though *hugs*

Re: Re: This sucks lol...sorry man :P

quote:

Originally posted by P_Kozy That is like me saying "Just beacause I am en english major, and you don't type with proper grammar, don't use any type of punctuation in your sentences. Better yet, don't type if you can't do it correctly. It annoys every english major that ever lived. I now forbid you from doing so." That's just stupid, wouldn't you say?

Spot on, +1. You too Pokit. Criticism - good, but just ripping it - bad.

Decent track. Liked the way you have layered some of the instruments. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Would agree with adding a bit more verb to some of your instruments for more space in your mix. Some of the instruments are mastered really well. I think the track appears a little disjointed with reference to the break beat sections as they come in a little suddenly. Maybe some kind of introduction to each beat would be a good idea? Sometimes the mix goes a bit thin but generally this is expected with the instruments you are using and the style you have assumed.

Otherwise nice work. Anyone that says go away and study before you make any more music needs shot. Go home you lifeless bastard.

Cheers, K

Booster

quote:

Originally posted by BOOsTER Dear aeonia, I don't say this is a proper classical piece, it's just a piece I wrote and I liked, I don't think that makes me being about 10 yrs old an easy guess First of all, I want to say that I am sorry to offend all of you, who are classicaly trained but well I thought the word symphonic kinda reflects what is in the track... I have not had the chance to study the music theory where I live, there are far many reasons why not and I don't want to bother you with it. And btw...I really DO think that your review is a bit too harsh lol, mate make a trance song and I will reply you that the only good thing about your track is that bright hi-hat loop you have there! Damn, would you feel good? Then again, don't offend the listeners who liked the track, it's just a chilled tune to listen while you want to relax or something, maybe the hair on your neck are standing in terror while listening, but don't say everyone who likes it is an idiot, please, that's just "snobbism". The other art form I like is bonsai, if you know what it is. It's an art of making a living picture of a mature tree in a pot. While there's a lot of japanese "styles" which were set centuries ago, many people will do some kind of free style and sometimes, trust me, the little trees which are free of any of the usual japanese styles DO look much better...why? Because they are simply something different. Then again, I am sorry for using terms like symphonic or orchestral for my track, I think it was by far the most suitable terms to introduce this track in a few words! And btw, yeah I could have been well pissed off now...but...I am not live with it! One last thing, I would certainly appreciate if you could point out, what exactly is wrong in the piece, and how could I possibly improve that, if I find out it will make the piece itself better and not take away the "WOW" factor under which was the whole piece produced, I will most certainly try to do something with it and maybe rewrite the piece, but I am quite certain that the breakbeat loop is not the only good thing P_Kozy: Big thanks to you, mate pwnage1: thanks to you, too.

Hello Booster.
I commend your maturity exhibited by such a calm response. I also appreciate your "music snob disclaimer" If i had read that before it would have REALLY calmed my nerves. I will appologize for being "harsh" and cold and trashing your piece. It was snobbish of me to do, I admit, but I couldn't resist. I just had to represent what most classical musicians and/or music majors would think if they listened to this piece since everyone else on this forum seemed to have no problems but 'not enough reverb' (which btw is NOT what this track needs, it needs less reverb). In other words, I wanted to level the playing field.
Everything I said is true to how I feel about this track. I m being brutally honest. I m kind of being the "simon of American Idol" on TA. This is the real world. People trash you if you do something that sucks. I'm sorry for not being sensitive to your expressive art form, however you earn your right to get recognition for that expressive art from by mastering your element.
In regard to your comment about not having the opportunity to study music theory. That simply NOT true. You obviously have internet access. Visit these links:
http://www.teoria.com/ (basic music theory and education)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint (learn what counterpoint is and how to use it)
http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/ (what kind of music is that?)
http://www.classical.net/music/comp...asterindex.html (learn about famous composers)
http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/musical_history.html (short history of western music)
http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/stockhausen.html (stockhausen- pioneer of electronic serial music)
http://www.tribalsmile.com/music/article_94.shtml (All about "Harmony")

Thats just a start!
If you have time to type long responses in this forum I'm sure you can squeeze an hour into your schedule to read those sites.
And to whoever said "Anyone that says go away and study before you make any more music needs shot." You need to be shot! because music is like anything in life, it requires practice, time, and study to master. I never told him to stop making music, only to produce in a genre he was familiar with. And if he wanted to produce orchestral music, then study it first. I would never post a trance track with not even listening to trance or studying how it works first. I would end up with a terrible track. Which is what happened in this case. if you are too lazy to study music, then you end up making crappy music, you sow what you reap. Sure your music may be expressive, and some people might like it, but VERY few musicians went far without extensive study, practice and education.


Okay as for the other good thing in this piece I will search deep and find some. I will listen to your piece again:
Starting at the begining I'll do a step by step review:

The strings at 0:30 are decent. I would remove the reverb you have on them and make them sound more real (or at least raise the low cutoff of that reverb to make them a bit brighter).
That contrabass or cello , your bassline of your deep strings should not follow the main melody. You are riding your piece of any harmony here. It sounds like your bassline should be emphasizing the root or median notes of the melody. Your melody is okay, but your bass is what is ruining it. So please try to do a counter melody line with your bass. Find out if you want to follow a "chord" structure and then implement the root notes of those chords for starters.
One thing that is very distasteful is your crashes and gongs seem to fall off the beat. You should align your crashes and gongs so they peak on a main beat. Your little clarinet thing is fine it really gives this piece more of an ethnic sound (ex. 1:03). Now at 1:10
OH MY...honestly man take it from a pianist that that piano sucks. If I were you, just get rid of that entire piano section wtih the random gong smashes in the background. So cut out 1:10 - 2:02. Now at 2:00 that part is quite good. Its just your tritone domiant chords that really tain this part for the worse. Same advice here. Work on your cello/contrabass melody so that it doesnt just ascend with the melody.
The bass is also quite muddy because the clarify of your harmonic intention is ambiguous...this means that if you decide on what harmony you want to use, then you will have a cleaner bass sound. The piano is not horrible around 4 minutes. If your bass was following a chord structure or even a mode I would have much less to complain about.(SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode )

I would say your core strings are the best sounding. if your contrabass was fixed the melody would work well. Your biggest problem is this piece OCTAVAL. This entire piece is octaval and because of your "western style" melodies and your octaval bass, thats where the clash is. One is expecting a western harmony for the bass and is given none. I suggest using a western harmony for the bass and it would sound a lot nicer. If you don't want to do that then you must change your melody into a modal melody or an atonal melody.
Around 6:50 the melody is very boring. You should introduce a new theme earlier. Orchestral pieces are long, but that is because orchestral works are divided into several differnet parts.
For example a classical overature (specifically an Italian symphony) shares a common musical structure with a majority of orchestral pieces this is a four part structure divided into "movements". Each movement is also in its own form. Here is an example:
1st Movement: music is fast -- in binary form (two parts A,B)
2nd Movement: music is slower -- a bit more freeform
3rd movement: a minuet (a type of dance) and trio in ternary form (three parts ABA)
4rth movement: quick, sometimes its in sonata form, or a rondo or sonata-rondo (you can read about what those forms are )
This whole four movement work will end up being quite long, but it follows a musical journey a lot like trance tracks have
1st "movement": music is fast and percussive (1 - 3 minute intoduction without any chord changes)
2nd "movement": music is slower (1 minute breakdown)
3rd "movement": music is fast again (3-4 chorus main section similar to a minuet dance piece of a symphony)
4rth movement: music is fast and percussive again (1-2 minute outro)
3rd movmenent

As you can see a trance track is very similar in structure to an 18th Century Symphony. This goes to show that music has not really changed at all only reincarnated. If you had KNOWN about 18th C music before composing a trance track for example, you would have a deeper understanding of the music you are composing and therefore compose a more solid track.

So basically my point in this is that your orchestral piece needs to follow a structure. If that structure is "stream of consciousness" then do that (but its not). You introduce certain melodies so those melodies compose musical "motifs" and "themes". You need to decide how long to let one theme go before changing it or switching to another one.

Now you basically do the same thing untill 9:23. At this time you bring out a new electronic sound into prominence. Its the same melody as before. The classical form you are employing is called "Variational themes." Then you add your piano again. There is still nothing new. I suggest shortening the piece up to now to 3 - 4 minutes. Okay THEN the aliens land.
Now I dont think its a bad thing to all of the sudden break out into electronica, and i enjoy your distorted synth that iniates it. I do think that it would be more tasteful to do the change a bit more gradual. When you add the strings back in over top of the distorted flippy sound thing, the strings come into too loud. (this is one instance I picked up on but this happens a lot of times, work on having cresendo and decresendo in your piece to add dynamics)
Now you have this little bendy synth thing which is fine. But your beat comes in kind of randomly here and there. You should keep it in or take it out. Don�t have it in for several measures then thats it. 13:40, i think your elements are good, melodies are not good here though. I understand it follows the same melody but did it ever occur to you that in orchestral music especially when you are Expressing yourself, you can have different melodies. Your beat that comes in is good here. Why not just start at 14:20 and make a track? that sounds like it should be the start of a new track.
The horn instrument 15:30 is a bit tiresome on the ears ..soften that with dynamics please.
15:50 is a bad drop. the piano sounds so random alone. I hear what you are trying to do, short of explaining a TON of crap I will just say you need to work on your progression of the track. ESp after the beat comes in. at 16:55 I will give you credit because I hear dynamics employed with the piano! good job. Do that everywhere else on the piece.
17:22 is probably the best part of the track for me. Because your strings are the best part. when your bass comes in it ruins is because this should NOT have an octaval bass. If your bass played the TONIC notes...then maybe i wouldn�t be cringing right now.. but that is a wonderful build if your bass melody was good. I would take that section from 17:20 to 18:30 and use it for your main build. I would then cut out like 10 minutes of this track (piano part in the middle, several minutes out from the 2- 8 minute range

The end of your track is really the same old melody things again. I like the sound of the beat at 20:40. thats why i said make a break track out of it. now if this is the trumpet part I might have to tell you to stop the track here...
your track never ends! ahhhh.. just end it. people can put a 8 minute track on LOOP in their media players you don�t have to do it for them cuz it takes a hella longer time to download.
Okay here are the trumpets. Now i m gonna say... I like the low notes of the trumpets a lot better. the high octaves are MUCH too blaring for this atmosphere. You just lack a good melody i think. The melody isn�t good enough to keep repeating for 27 minutes. In classical music trumpets are usually used for the MAIN parts of the track the big glorious climaxes not the "breakdown" parts. I m not syaing you ahve to do that but there is a reason why. its because trumpets command a very blaring sound which is most fitting when they have lots of support beneath them. That delayed reverbed pluck instrument at 25:00 is kind of annoying. I just would leave it out. At least don�t let it play that same melody. YOU HAVE to come up with more melodies in a half an hour piece. Don�t keep regurgitating the same melody with a host of different instruments INCLUDING your bass. btw i love how the beat fades into the distance with those fxs. That is actually a nice touch.

So that's my entire review. Hope that helped, it was critical but constructive I hope. Basically I want you to take the "good" parts of this track and fashion it into shorter nicer whole. If I was to officially classify this piece it is a "octaval variation of themes with an phrygian ethnic sound". and honestly, this piece doesn�t have to be 27 minutes long. it should be 10 at MOST. Cut out the bad parts save the good parts, its part of producing a good piece. Good luck
thanks for bearing my harsh criticisms, please don�t take it too personally. I am just as harsh a critic on myself.
Cheers,
Matt S

Took me a long time to read through your post, thanks for taking your time, to find out what exactly is wrong, with this post your first post sounds much better (not for being shot! like someone else said).

First of all, yes your feedback is now finally constructive and I will try to have your comments in my mind once I try to do something similar again. For now, please take my excuse that this track was produced spontaneously, under the "WOW" factor, like the trance tracks in the 90's...which is not an excuse. One fact is that this piece is more like a 27 mins breakdown and maybe somehow boring for someone who doesn't see the special meaning, it has for me.

I was really hoping to get such kind of response here, that was the reason for me to try to calm down the guys who came into the topic to cover my back (thanks mates, though! Strongly appreciated).
I haven't seen such a hot discussion here for a long time.

Let me sum it, I think this track IS enjoyable for people who just like some chilled music to make their afterwork afternoon a bit more calm, it might be controverse for the ones who know a lot about the style of music which this piece "tries" to be, but I hope that once you can see the point, it becomes less agressive to your ears and to your mind.

Thanks for your response, aeonia.

and thanks all you mates, who came here to help while it was unneeded I still DO apreciated that

Listening now. Comments to come tonight

To clarify, I didn't want you to discourage someone from making music until they have a classical education in the subject because If you lose your passion for producing music then you'll never want to learn all the theory that obviously underpins a lot of music creation.

You have more than compensated by providing a thorough review containing plenty of constructive criticism. And you don't need to be shot.

quote:

Originally posted by JustinMead Listening now. Comments to come tonight

still eagerly waiting


Mr Kre8: well you're pretty much right, but me retiring from production was not caused by this guy not really...if that was the reason for your post...

quote:

Originally posted by BOOsTER Took me a long time to read through your post, thanks for taking your time, to find out what exactly is wrong, with this post your first post sounds much better (not for being shot! like someone else said). First of all, yes your feedback is now finally constructive and I will try to have your comments in my mind once I try to do something similar again. For now, please take my excuse that this track was produced spontaneously, under the "WOW" factor, like the trance tracks in the 90's...which is not an excuse. One fact is that this piece is more like a 27 mins breakdown and maybe somehow boring for someone who doesn't see the special meaning, it has for me. I was really hoping to get such kind of response here, that was the reason for me to try to calm down the guys who came into the topic to cover my back (thanks mates, though! Strongly appreciated). I haven't seen such a hot discussion here for a long time. Let me sum it, I think this track IS enjoyable for people who just like some chilled music to make their afterwork afternoon a bit more calm, it might be controverse for the ones who know a lot about the style of music which this piece "tries" to be, but I hope that once you can see the point, it becomes less agressive to your ears and to your mind. Thanks for your response, aeonia. and thanks all you mates, who came here to help while it was unneeded I still DO apreciated that

You are welcome Booster. I actually think you inspired me to put up a half hour long "special meaning but sounds like crap" piece. Of course this will actually be in stream of conscious style and it is played live on the piano. i ll put it up soon...
it was between that and a 27 minute symphony entitled "27 minutes with the fruity randomizer and C_Kick"....
lool

well that was mean

Oh noes!

The piece doesn't employ counterpoint, what a useless piece of rubbish!

How about just listening with your ears, seeing if you like it, and ignoring all that theory bullshit?

Granted, good musical theory is designed in order to make music sound better by reducing clashing harmonies etc, but that doesn't mean that good music can't be made without them.

I liked this piece, some parts are a bit poor with dissonant/ill timed, elements, but others are very nice. It lacks direction a little bit, but you managed to convey to me perfectly that that's not what this track is about - it's more about ambling along with no particular destination in mind.

Thanks for sharing.

exactly that

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