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Chavez negotiating Russian arms purchase

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Venezuela negotiating Russian subs purchase Friday, June 29, 2007 By AFP MOSCOW, June 29, 2007 (AFP) - Venezuela is negotiating the purchase of five diesel-electric powered submarines from Russia, the Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport said Friday. "Negotiations are underway between the Russian Federation and Venezuela on the purchase of five submarines," Innokenty Nalyotov, an advisor to Rosoboronexport's chief, was quoted as saying by Interfax and RIA Novosti news agencies. Russia was also discussing possible sales of army and airforce material, Nalyotov said at a naval exhibition in Saint Petersburg, Interfax said. The report came on the second day of a visit to Russia by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who has made a priority of modernising and expanding his oil-rich country's armed forces and last year bought aircraft and rifles from Russia. Russia is a major arms supplier to the Latin American country despite strong criticism from the United States, which accuses Chavez of building an authoritarian state. The submarine under negotiation is known in Russia as the Project 636 and in NATO classification as Kilo Class. According to Rosoboronexport, the 73.8-metre (242-foot) submarine can dive to 300 metres (984-feet) and carries six torpedo tubes, with 18 torpedoes, and an anti-ship cruise missile system. Chavez has said Venezuela is interested in purchasing submarines to protect extensive offshore energy fields.

http://www.france24.com/france24Pub...gotiations.html
Latin America doesn't want North American regime
and has Russian technology.

Venezuela has a large coastline to protect. Though submarines are more dangerous, because they might be considered a threat to US and treated as such ... well, I think a few hundred of the latest MIG's / SU's will be enough, which they dont have yet anyway (in that number).

Didn't someone tell Chavez that Russkie high tech mil hardware mostly suck?

lol it doesn't suck. train the crew properly with that technology they can easily overrun all of Latin America and quiet possibly hold of the USA for a few months.

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Originally posted by EvilTree Didn't someone tell Chavez that Russkie high tech mil hardware mostly suck?

Yes, Russian new military equipment sucks so much that Russia is one of the world's largest weapons manufacturers and exporters in the world (behind US, of course). Lot of idiots out there, eh? Besides, Russian military equipment is so bad, then why do countries keep on buying it, not the Chinese or the US or the French, British, German, etc. munitions? Even Chinese are ripping off Russian technology and making, selling millions of Kalashnikovs, Russian tanks, space technology, etc. As a matter of a fact, if it wasnt for Russia, space station would be f*cked today. For how many years were shuttles grounded? How many people died on them? Compare that to the reliability and cost effectiveness of Soyuz capsule, a 40 year testament to Russian military and technologic advancement.

the Russians did fuck up in space when all their computers on board the ISS crashed at once putting the astronaut's lives at risk and shutting down the trajectory control systems. Good thing the Americans had their Atlantis docked with the ISS, which fired its boosters periodically to keep space station on course. So much for Russian hardware.

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Originally posted by Omega_M the Russians did fuck up in space when all their computers on board the ISS crashed at once putting the astronaut's lives at risk and shutting down the trajectory control systems. Good thing the Americans had their Atlantis docked with the ISS, which fired its boosters periodically to keep space station on it's course. So much for Russian hardware.

Imagine what it would have been it there were no Russian computers on board ... if US had better computer systems for ISS, why didnt they place them there? After all, Russia has a huge stake and lots of equipment in the ISS. That shows technological advancement, reliability, experience. What happened with Russian computers can happen and has happened with any other computer systems, especially in such extreme and fragile places like outer space. And judging by how its the first time such a massive crash has happened, its not as bad. And most of the computers are back online, last time I checked last week (probably all are back now). Interesting to note that the crashes mostly happen when there's a lot of tasks that need to be done, especially with people on board. If there was better computers to perform the duties those computers were designed to do, then we wouldn't need Russians in the ISS, now, would we?

It's stupid for Russia to sell off the weapon to Chavez. It will piss Americans more so both nations wouldn't have chance to agree on Anti-Ballistic missle system.

A new cold war is coming.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Yes, Russian new military equipment sucks so much that Russia is one of the world's largest weapons manufacturers and exporters in the world (behind US, of course). Lot of idiots out there, eh? Besides, Russian military equipment is so bad, then why do countries keep on buying it, not the Chinese or the US or the French, British, German, etc. munitions? Even Chinese are ripping off Russian technology and making, selling millions of Kalashnikovs, Russian tanks, space technology, etc. As a matter of a fact, if it wasnt for Russia, space station would be f*cked today. For how many years were shuttles grounded? How many people died on them? Compare that to the reliability and cost effectiveness of Soyuz capsule, a 40 year testament to Russian military and technologic advancement.

its affordable

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Venezuela has a large coastline to protect.

no they don't, Chavez just needs an enemy.

it's so transparent it's laughable.

don't be so dumb to fall for his bullshit. or you're no better than me and Bush, right?

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Originally posted by Sunsnail its affordable

ding ding ding. winnar!

after the fall of soviet union, all the east sov bloc nations had excess Russian hardware to get rid of, which tin pot dictator and rebel types were happy to get their hands on.

By comparison, you'd have to get through a lot more red tape to get hands on NATO hardware.

Not to mention they were buying small arms stuff like AK47, RPG 7 because buying tanks and fighters would require a bigger logistic support than most of these tin pot dictator/rebel types have available, or have money to build.

As for the Chinese, they've already used Russian gear for long time. Why would they want to introduce new gear that they aren't as proficient at and they've already have tech base to build and improve at home, plus not to mention US wouldn't sell to China?

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Originally posted by Sunsnail its affordable

I think you hit the nail on the head too.

as far as submarines are concerned, yes, Russian boats are not only cheap but plentiful, simple to use and train, and there is an established spare parts market for them. (subs require perpetual maintenance. they are huge money pits) its just good value for dollar.

Russian top tier export boats like the newer Kilos are good boats and many countries buy them because they can't afford top tier German units. i know it sounds like the automobile market but the Germans and Japs make the finest and most advanced conventional boats in the world.

the problem with Venezuela becomes training and this is why this is soooo stupid and naive on Chavez's part. see, you can have the finest fleet money can buy, it does you absolutely no good if you don't have the finest crew money can train. training a fleet, even a squadron, of competent bubbleheads takes years to become proficient and deadly with a submarine. by that time, no one will even remember what the hell a "Neocon" is much less have to worry about a Bushitler boogeyman coming to get him

Chavez isn't stupid though. the only thing i can think of that would justify him ratcheting up a large military force like this for the long run is his own ambitions for his little sphere of influence. to me that makes so much more sense.

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Originally posted by Q5echo Chavez isn't stupid though. the only thing i can think of that would justify him ratcheting up a large military force like this for the long run is his own ambitions for his little sphere of influence. to me that makes so much more sense.

Who is he going to flex his muscle at?

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Originally posted by Q5echo as far as submarines are concerned, yes, Russian boats are not only cheap but plentiful, simple to use and train, and there is an established spare parts market for them. (subs require perpetual maintenance. they are huge money pits) its just good value for dollar. Russian top tier export boats like the newer Kilos are good boats and many countries buy them because they can't afford top tier German units. i know it sounds like the automobile market but the Germans and Japs make the finest and most advanced conventional boats in the world. the problem with Venezuela becomes training and this is why this is soooo stupid and naive on Chavez's part. see, you can have the finest fleet money can buy, it does you absolutely no good if you don't have the finest crew money can train. training a fleet, even a squadron, of competent bubbleheads takes years to become proficient and deadly with a submarine. by that time, no one will even remember what the hell a "Neocon" is much less have to worry about a Bushitler boogeyman coming to get him Chavez isn't stupid though. the only thing i can think of that would justify him ratcheting up a large military force like this for the long run is his own ambitions for his little sphere of influence. to me that makes so much more sense.

Well said . I think the subs purchase is a stretch, even for good ol' Hugo. Sure, buy a bunch of Kalashnikov's, some jets etc. but some subs? Why not just some good destroyers or frigates? Although, those Kilo's can just sit relatively still in key locations and just listen. Not too bad for passive defense of one's extended coastal area I guess.

These deals always remind me of one of the greatest ironies (?) of our time - that the largest arms exporters are also the permanent members of the Security Council. It's a laughable situation.

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Originally posted by pmoisse Well said . I think the subs purchase is a stretch, even for good ol' Hugo. Sure, buy a bunch of Kalashnikov's, some jets etc. but some subs? Why not just some good destroyers or frigates? Although, those Kilo's can just sit relatively still in key locations and just listen. Not too bad for passive defense of one's extended coastal area I guess.

Subs project power differently than a ship. Being sneaky and all that.

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Originally posted by Sunsnail its affordable

LOL, if the Russian military equipment and technology was shit, nobody would buy it now, would they? It works, and has been successful when used by professionals in various conflicts. Quite reliable as well. There's still 40-year old Russian tanks in service in some countries - heck, some people trash their cars long before that. Russia is ranked in top 5 countries in terms of weapons sales, thats not that shitty now, is it? The weapons they sell, the guns break and dont fire, eh? Submarines fail to leave docks and helicopters crash after every other take-off, right? The only reason why Russian military equipment has had such bad history since 1991 is because of little money to upkeep, maintenance and proper care. When your submarine receives little or no maintenance in its lifetime after regular use, you wouldn't expect it to be in the same condition now, would you?

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Originally posted by Q5echo no they don't, Chavez just needs an enemy. it's so transparent it's laughable. don't be so dumb to fall for his bullshit. or you're no better than me and Bush, right?

According to you then, Venezuela should just let their coastline be unprotected - and continue helding unprotected their massive oil/gas fields offshore that is the bloodline of the regime. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright, Einstein. Yes, according to you Chavez just wants to throw money around for some crappy Russian equipment ... whateva ... You see, ships are easy to see and can be wiped out with a single US military attack, considering the US military prowess. Subs are a different story. Einstein, Russian subs are not the greatest in the world, I never said that, but they rank well, and are well equipped and technologically great. Price is of course one of the main reasons.

German subs???? Pfffft ... yeah, based on whose technology do their have subs? Their submarine technology was wiped clean after WW2 and they are not frontrunners in military equipment sales by any means. Most of equipment they sold was from the Cold War era and had a lot of Soviet weaponry too, given to such wars like the Bosnian, Croat and Uganda conflicts ...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium LOL, if the Russian military equipment and technology was shit, nobody would buy it now, would they? It works, and has been successful when used by professionals in various conflicts. Quite reliable as well. There's still 40-year old Russian tanks in service in some countries - heck, some people trash their cars long before that. Russia is ranked in top 5 countries in terms of weapons sales, thats not that shitty now, is it? The weapons they sell, the guns break and dont fire, eh? Submarines fail to leave docks and helicopters crash after every other take-off, right? The only reason why Russian military equipment has had such bad history since 1991 is because of little money to upkeep, maintenance and proper care. When your submarine receives little or no maintenance in its lifetime after regular use, you wouldn't expect it to be in the same condition now, would you?

It's like a choice between lamborghini or a corvette. Both work good, but one is better and more expensive.

You don't need top of the line stuff to fight random levels in 3rd world country or whatnot.

If you go against top militaries in the world, then maybe you want to get the best stuff.

Russian stuff works. But most of them aren't better than US gear.

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Originally posted by EvilTree It's like a choice between lamborghini or a corvette. Both work good, but one is better and more expensive. You don't need top of the line stuff to fight random levels in 3rd world country or whatnot. If you go against top militaries in the world, then maybe you want to get the best stuff. Russian stuff works. But most of them aren't better than US gear.

The truth is, with today's military tactics and warfare more expensive military equipment means jack shit. You can anytime fork up top of the line submarine with a cheap torpedo. So what? Its about how you use it. If there are two CD players at hand, one is SONY and the other is a lesser-known brand that works just as great but costs twice less, what would you do? Would you buy a 10-dollar knife made in USA or a different one that does exactly the same stuff and its stainless steel too but costs a dollar but made somewhere else? Kapish???

EDIT: A 40-year-old Kalashnikov gun in the hands of an experienced fighter (who also knows his gun like the aplhabet) would work much better than a brand new KICK ASS top of the line newest US assault rifle that a conscript got a month ago. So what? Who's gonna kick whose ass? If the gun does the same stuff, just as reliable if not more, durable, but shoots 10 metres less the distance, and costs 5 times less ... well, you see where I am getting at? Its not like in the battlefield there are pure equal fair perfect fighting conditions, because then yeah, the best submarine will squeeze out a victory. Thats not the new way of warfare, bud. Get with the times.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium The truth is, with today's military tactics and warfare more expensive military equipment means jack shit. You can anytime fork up top of the line submarine with a cheap torpedo. So what? Its about how you use it. If there are two CD players at hand, one is SONY and the other is a lesser-known brand that works just as great but costs twice less, what would you do? Would you buy a 10-dollar knife made in USA or a different one that does exactly the same stuff and its stainless steel too but costs a dollar but made somewhere else? Kapish??? EDIT: A 40-year-old Kalashnikov gun in the hands of an experienced fighter (who also knows his gun like the aplhabet) would work much better than a brand new KICK ASS top of the line newest US assault rifle that a conscript got a month ago. So what? Who's gonna kick whose ass? If the gun does the same stuff, just as reliable if not more, durable, but shoots 10 metres less the distance, and costs 5 times less ... well, you see where I am getting at? Its not like in the battlefield there are pure equal fair perfect fighting conditions, because then yeah, the best submarine will squeeze out a victory. Thats not the new way of warfare, bud. Get with the times.

Yes, it's the training that matters a lot. Yes. Knowing how to use your equipment matters a lot too.

End of debate on this subject. lol

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Originally posted by Magnetonium According to you then, Venezuela should just let their coastline be unprotected - and continue helding unprotected their massive oil/gas fields offshore that is the bloodline of the regime. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright, Einstein.

against whom then should Chavez be afraid of? who is going to take his precious oil? and why?

why are you so quick to defend this guy? he's a rebel without a cause or clue.

i'll be honest with you, if he does want to become the new Castro of the Western Hemisphere then he's got a lot more to worry about economically than defending his coastline. which, BTW, has been undefended since Venezuela became a founding member of OPEC half a century ago.

ask yourself how long Neocons will be in office soon and what Chavez's motivations will be once they are gone.

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according to you Chavez just wants to throw money around for some crappy Russian equipment ... whateva ... You see, ships are easy to see and can be wiped out with a single US military attack, considering the US military prowess. Subs are a different story. Einstein, Russian subs are not the greatest in the world, I never said that, but they rank well, and are well equipped and technologically great. Price is of course one of the main reasons.

i don't care what he's buying Einstien, i'm trying to figure out his motivations or why he's buying it. he's buying a lot more than subs.

i have personally tracked three export Kilos in my lifetime. i was on US submarines for 10 years. i know how quiet they can be when properly crewed. i know how vulnerable ANY platform can be when they are put to sea by a proper crew, but it takes years to get to that level.

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German subs???? Pfffft ... yeah, based on whose technology do their have subs?

their own. Germany has been at the forefront of submarining since the turn of last century. Germany never "wiped their technology clean" wtf? their entire military industrial complex was restricted in the fifties and their restrictions for U-boats have been in size since the sixties but they still make the some of the finest conventional boats around like the 212. they were the first to implement AIP (air independent propulsion) and production hydrogen cell technology underwater. German 209's are have been upgrading and selling for decades. they're not as capable over-the horizon as Russian Kilos or as capable period but you'll find a 209 in just about every smaller sub navy in the world. just pick up a Janes.

the German arms industry is one of the largest and most successful in world and they consistently produce some of the finest weapons systems in the world. Germany is third behind Russia in terms of Billions of $ exported.

USA: 7.9
Russia: 6.7
Germany: 3.9
France: 1.6
Britain: 1.1
Netherlands: 1.5
Italy: 0.9
China: 0.6
Sweden: 0.5
Israel: 0.2

again youre pulling shit out of your ass, kid. stop it. you think you know but really, you know nothing about anything. and i'm beginning to suspect you don't know how to read.

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Originally posted by Q5echo ... the German arms industry is one of the largest and most successful in world and they consistently produce some of the finest weapons systems in the world. ...

Any real world examples?

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Originally posted by star-traveller Any real world examples?

the rankings are as follows in terms of arms exprts.

USA: 7.9
Russia: 6.7
Germany: 3.9
France: 1.6
Britain: 1.1
Netherlands: 1.5
Italy: 0.9
China: 0.6
Sweden: 0.5
Israel: 0.2


>Stockholm International Peace Institute<

do i have name specfic weapons and systems or can you take like 30 seconds out of your day do do it. i'm at work.

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Originally posted by star-traveller Any real world examples?

ever heard of Rheinmetall?

their Waffe division also makes some very fine gun mounted systems

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Rheinmetall Landsysteme GmbH embodies the Land Systems division of the Rheinmetall Defence Group. As a major supplier of systems for ground forces, the company develops and manufactures wheeled and tracked armoured vehicles as well as turret systems and weapon stations. To date, the company has supplied more than 14,000 vehicles and subsystems to customers in 36 countries. The company has its headquarters in Kiel, with further locations in Gersthofen, Kassel and Unterluess. These sites give the systems specialists an efficient infrastructure with development, design and testing, production, quality assurance, sales, logistics and after sales services. Rheinmetall Landsysteme GmbH currently has around 1,600 employees. The company generated sales of approx. 380 million euros in 2006.

the Leopard 2 from KMW (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann). NATO's main battle tank.







Howaldswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) THE world's leading builder of conventional submarines. Magnetstupidum will deny that to the bitter end though.


the Krauts have in their genetic make-up to build the finest precision machinery on the planet. they've been that way for centuries. no treaty will EVER take that away from them.

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Originally posted by Q5echo against whom then should Chavez be afraid of? who is going to take his precious oil? and why?

Without much in terms of changing the subject, I'll give you quick names ... Bay Of Pigs ... Iraq ... Saudi Arabia ... Kuwait (how many US troops in those countries guarding oil fields?)

US has attempted on at least one occasion to overthrow Chavez, seen in '02 or '03 when he was briefly overthrown in a coup that was US backed that later shortfired.

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why are you so quick to defend this guy? he's a rebel without a cause or clue. i'll be honest with you, if he does want to become the new Castro of the Western Hemisphere then he's got a lot more to worry about economically than defending his coastline. which, BTW, has been undefended since Venezuela became a founding member of OPEC half a century ago.

I dont support Chavez much, but to me he's less of a threat that US is to world's stability, peace and security. Who is Chavez buying these weapons to be protected from? From mosquitos in the jungle????

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ask yourself how long Neocons will be in office soon and what Chavez's motivations will be once they are gone.

It doesnt matter much who will be in the US office, but their foreign policy will change little if any. Both Democrats and Republicans bombed the hell out of Iraq, Serbia, attempted AND ooverthrowed governments, installed brutal puppet regimes, etc. etc. etc. Makes no difference to Chavez. For him to hope that next US leader will be pro-Chavez and pro-communist and let him live in peace is a joke to assess anyway. Its impossible.

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i don't care what he's buying Einstien, i'm trying to figure out his motivations or why he's buying it. he's buying a lot more than subs.

Is he buying nukes? Is he buying missiles/ACBM/Anti-aircraft land-based systems? Is he buying ANYTHING that will directly threaten US? Maybe subs. But they are not exactly the kind that Russian military uses to arm with nukes to patrol American waters. So there's no threat to US, and these weapons are more of defense capability. 12 helicopters is NOT enough for a major campaign against Colombia or Panama.

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i have personally tracked three export Kilos in my lifetime. i was on US submarines for 10 years. i know how quiet they can be when properly crewed. i know how vulnerable ANY platform can be when they are put to sea by a proper crew, but it takes years to get to that level.

OK, agreed ... I think thats where I've been getting through as well.

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their own. Germany has been at the forefront of submarining since the turn of last century. Germany never "wiped their technology clean" wtf? their entire military industrial complex was restricted in the fifties and their restrictions for U-boats have been in size since the sixties but they still make the some of the finest conventional boats around like the 212. they were the first to implement AIP (air independent propulsion) and production hydrogen cell technology underwater. German 209's are have been upgrading and selling for decades. they're not as capable over-the horizon as Russian Kilos or as capable period but you'll find a 209 in just about every smaller sub navy in the world. just pick up a Janes.

Yes, listen to yourself SINCE the 1950s / 1960s. German submarines have been around since 1960 judging by the image you posted. Thats my point. Their massive and top-of-the-line Nazi military machine was almost wiped out after WW2. Surely even today Germany is a big player in weapons sales, but nowhere as close to other big players like USA, Russia, UK, France ... Germany makes good quality stuff no doubt about it, they have decent military and decent military exports, but nowhere near some of the other big players, who dont just include Russia and US. I dont know where you pulled the below info, out of your arse I guess, you links dont show that:

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the German arms industry is one of the largest and most successful in world and they consistently produce some of the finest weapons systems in the world. Germany is third behind Russia in terms of Billions of $ exported. USA: 7.9 Russia: 6.7 Germany: 3.9 France: 1.6 Britain: 1.1 Netherlands: 1.5 Italy: 0.9 China: 0.6 Sweden: 0.5 Israel: 0.2

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again youre pulling shit out of your ass, kid. stop it. you think you know but really, you know nothing about anything. and i'm beginning to suspect you don't know how to read.

LOL ... he's some info you'd like to see to disprove your sentiment on how big of a military arms seller Germany is, so its YOU who should stop pulling shit out of your own ass, or at least make sure you're 100 percent right before proceeding with silly words like you did:

http://www.sipri.org/contents/armst..._data.html#supp
Section: Values by supplier country > The financial value of national arms exports, 1994-2005 (excel - 76kb)

Government and industry data on the financial value of national arms exports, 1998-2005, in current US$
Updated 15 May 2007
Copyright: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

Country - Currency unit - 1998 - 1999 - 2000 - 2001 - 2002 - 2003 - 2004 - 2005 Explanation of data
France - USD - 7712 - 4633 - 2776 - 3065 - 4434 - 5046 - 9010 - 4744 Value of arms exports (constant 2005 prices)
Germany - USD - 760 - 1549 - 626 - 328 - 300 - 1504 - 1402 - 2027 Value of 'war weapons' exports
Israel - USD - 1879 - 1606 - 1764 - 2000 - 2000 - 2350 - 2600 - 2600 Value of arms exports
Italy - USD - 1116 - 944 - 556 - 496 - 459 - 711 - 596 - 1034 Value of arms exports
Netherlands - USD - 480 - 390 - 384 - 583 - 425 - 1299 - 775 - 1461 Value of licences for arms exports
Russia - USD - 2600 - 3390 - 3680 - 3705 - 4820 - 5400 - 5780 - 6126 Value of arms exports
Sweden - USD - 558 - 472 - 624 - 484 - 674 - 1182 - 1408 - 1416 Value of arms exports
Sweden - USD - 442 - 442 - 477 - 296 - 353 - 801 - 992 - 1155 Value of exports of military equipment and other equipment, services and software to military users
UK - USD - 9987 - 6877 - 6666 - 6069 - 6177 - 7421 - 9451 - 12985 Value of arms exports
UK - USD - 3259 - 1587 - 2604 - 2207 - 1412 - 1620 - 2547 - 2527 Value of exports of defence equipment and additional aerospace equipment and services
USA - USD - 15224 - 17542 - 10912 - 12822 - 10581 - 12043 - 18299 - . . Value of foreign military sales deliveries added to the value of commercial exports licensed under arms export act (covers the period 1 Oct. 2003 to 30 Sep. 2004)
USA - USD - 15578 - 17013 - 12647 - 9023 - 9848 - 10523 - 11440 - 11552 Value of arms exports

LOL ... according to these stats, Germany doesnt even make it to the top 5. LOL, UK's DEFENSE EQUIPMENT / AEROSPACE EQUIPMENT sales are bigger than that, not even talking about UK's arms exports, LOL ...

That was my entire point. Germany is a 'player', but not a frontrunner. All McDonalds restaurants in Hamilton, Ontario employ more people than that German submarine "kick-ass" company. I mean, sales of 300 million euros for that submarine company last year???? LOL ... thats pathetic for a FRONTRUNNER best German arms sales ... Its not bad of a business, but not frontrunner.

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