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Master tempo

Apologies in advance if this is an idiotic question. I've found that when both CDJ's have master tempo switched on they will not hold pitch very well. Sometimes I can't get the beats to "lock" on at all

Anyone else ever found this? It's only a problem when BOTH units have the master tempo switched on. I just got into the idea of mixing harmonically so have been using the master tempo quite a bit recently coz of this. Unless I'm missing something obvious it seems odd to me that the master tempo should affect beatmatching so much?

After thinking I was going mad or my units were playing up (2 x CDJ800 mk1), tonight I took my CDJ's round to my buddies & tested everything with identical results (he has 1 x CDJ800 mk1 & 1 x CDJ800 mk2).

Anyone else ever noticed it? Can anyone throw any pointers at me please.

Cheers all

PS One more thing which might be relevant is my mixer is quite unforgiving - very clear sound which seems to highlight anything even the tiniest fraction out (DJM909) but my mate has DJM500 which seems slightly more forgiving.

To speed a track up without changing the pitch, it has to chop little bits of sound out - it tends to do this quite well, but sometimes it'll chop the start of a beat off, or a chunk just before a beat (making the beat sound like it's hitting a bit sooner) which makes it sound like it's not quite in time - but these edits will be balanced, so for every slightly early beat there'll be a slightly late beat, so overall if you've got the tracks at the right pitch they'll stay in time - it just might sound a bit rough along the way.

Unfortunately with the current technology around, this is something we have to live with (the processor power needed to do that kind of processing is phenomenal as it is, to improve that processing it would require even more).

If you're finding it hard getting the tracks matched, try beatmatching with master tempo switched off then turn it on before you mix the track in.

Personally I don't bother with master tempo - I know it takes a bit more thought, but keeping an eye on the tempos of your tracks to make sure it's not pitched too far out (within 3 bpm tends to be a good rule of thumb) to be out of key tends to be the way forward. Ironically, you can only rely on master tempo to sound fine within about 2%, within which your tracks will be near enough to each other to sound in key anyway!

i absolutely abhore master tempo... it just doesn't work smoothly enough... Pitch N' Time is the only software I might consider getting my hands on when it becomes available for Serato... supposevly it is THE best and works seemlessly.

Never, ever, ever use master tempo.

can't you just use the harmonic feature on the djm 800 if you have one?? I thought it worked pretty well last time I put my hands on one.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid can't you just use the harmonic feature on the djm 800 if you have one?? I thought it worked pretty well last time I put my hands on one.

But he doesn't, does he he's got a DJM909

And you can't really rely on it - more and more clubs are getting them but they're not universally installed by any means.

Personally I take my EFX1000 to all of my gigs for my pitch shifting needs - it's not bad at all for small adjustments

nahh I was just saying because the ways you guys worded it was if master tempo wasn't so great so I was wondering if the harmonic feature is better. How does pitch bending work on the efx 1000 anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid nahh I was just saying because the ways you guys worded it was if master tempo wasn't so great so I was wondering if the harmonic feature is better. How does pitch bending work on the efx 1000 anyway?

Tbh it's not really designed for harmonic mixing, it's just supposed to be an effect (doing massive pitch ups/pitch downs) - but with the ZIP jog effect you can just turn the pad slightly and it'll pitch it up/down a few % and still sound reasonable

From my brief bit of testing with a DJM800 it did sound like it did pitch bending better than master tempo does it (and probably better than the EFX too), although I didn't really put it through its paces.

I'm surprised no one's come up with a dedicated high-quality pitch shifting unit yet, seeing that theoretically you could make a bit of hardware perform much better than a high-spec PC (if you tailor it for the right kind of multiply operations etc)... might have to have a go myself

quote:

Originally posted by idoru Never, ever, ever use master tempo.

I disagree - if you've got 2 tunes in the same key beatmatched and one's on 0% and the other's on 2%, why not hit the button on the track at 2% to make the tracks perfectly in key?

At that pitch offset the timestretching will sound fine and it'll make the harmonic mix noticably better.


And what if you've got a track on -2% and one on 2% for example (both in the same key)? They're too far away to still be in key, but having one on master tempo won't degrade the sound quality too much and will allow you to do a lovely little harmonic mix with them.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox I'm surprised no one's come up with a dedicated high-quality pitch shifting unit yet, seeing that theoretically you could make a bit of hardware perform much better than a high-spec PC (if you tailor it for the right kind of multiply operations etc)... might have to have a go myself

Now that you mention it, wow that so true. Hardware like that would sell quick I think.

with the right track selection you don't need it, i absolutely hate it regardless

I disagree 'cuz I'm a true believer of crazy transitions.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid I disagree 'cuz I'm a true believer of crazy transitions.

what's your point? are you suggesting you can't pull off a crazy transition, off key mix, or lift using proper track selection?

quote:

Originally posted by starboy what's your point? are you suggesting you can't pull off a crazy transition, off key mix, or lift using proper track selection?

maybe not the way you intended.

I sometimes use it. It's really a mix by mix situation.

i use master tempo all the time.

doesn't make too many problems for me.

Maybe it is the type of music I am usually working with (psychedelic trance, a notoriously "overproduced" i.e. heavily compressed genre), but master tempo usually sounds terrible. The sound canvas is usually so full to begin with that the little slices are very noticeable, at least to my ears. I avoid it like the plague, and just try to mix within 2 BPM if I'm going harmonic.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox To speed a track up without changing the pitch, it has to chop little bits of sound out - it tends to do this quite well, but sometimes it'll chop the start of a beat off, or a chunk just before a beat (making the beat sound like it's hitting a bit sooner) which makes it sound like it's not quite in time - but these edits will be balanced, so for every slightly early beat there'll be a slightly late beat, so overall if you've got the tracks at the right pitch they'll stay in time - it just might sound a bit rough along the way. Unfortunately with the current technology around, this is something we have to live with (the processor power needed to do that kind of processing is phenomenal as it is, to improve that processing it would require even more). If you're finding it hard getting the tracks matched, try beatmatching with master tempo switched off then turn it on before you mix the track in. Personally I don't bother with master tempo - I know it takes a bit more thought, but keeping an eye on the tempos of your tracks to make sure it's not pitched too far out (within 3 bpm tends to be a good rule of thumb) to be out of key tends to be the way forward. Ironically, you can only rely on master tempo to sound fine within about 2%, within which your tracks will be near enough to each other to sound in key anyway!

really nice post. thanks for the info

i too have never really noticed any problems with master tempo... it's only once you go past +-3 to 4% on the pitch when i start hearing distortions.

I've noticed severely distorted basslines when using Master Tempo, so I've stopped turning it on.

I don't like it. I think a while ago there was some thing about club managers in Ibiza getting annoyed at some of the dj's using it because the sound was average.

I've never used it before.

Here's an article that describes the algorithms used to accomplish changing the tempo without altering the pitch. It's much more complex than just "cutting bits" out of the original sound:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_...ch_modification

Programs like Ableton let you select a few different algorithms.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox I'm surprised no one's come up with a dedicated high-quality pitch shifting unit yet, seeing that theoretically you could make a bit of hardware perform much better than a high-spec PC (if you tailor it for the right kind of multiply operations etc)... might have to have a go myself

That becuase it's incredible difficult to do in real time without distotion or devation from the original sound, especially with zero latency.

Ryan075 is right, various methods are used, but you often loose the beat and/or tightness of the groove esoecially when it is a full sounding track (as per basilisk's psytrance). The harmonics just get so badly messed up.

It does work on minimal tracks, but the benefits to be had are less because there is not a lot going in the track.

Thanks to everyone for the info, I'll try & use your advice

I tend to be able to get them beatmatched to the right tempo but the transitions sound like crap, like the tracks are drifting even though they arent which tricks me into making unnecessary adjustments which completely buggers up the mix

It's worse with some tracks than others, it got so bad I actually thought my decks were playing up & phoned Pio service centre about it last week lol

Many sites when talking about harmonic mixing specifically suggest using master tempo, how do say the Denons compare to the Pio's in respect of master tempo? Are they all as bad?

I've started cueing up with master tempo on then off to see which sounds best.

Thanks again.

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