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The music theory knowledge swap shop!

I was doing some uni work on this and thought I would share this scale table i made for those who dont know.

Circle of fiths

M m m M m m Dim = M major, m minor, Dim diminished

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = Interval

7 - C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B# = C# MAJOR

6 - F#,G#,A#,B,C#,D#,E# = F# MAJOR

5 - B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A# = B MAJOR

4 - E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D# = E MAJOR

3 - A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G# = A MAJOR

2 - D,E,F#,G,A,B,C# = D MAJOR

1 - G,A,B,C,D,E,F# = G MAJOR

0 - C,D,E,F,G,A,B = C MAJOR

-1- F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E = F MAJOR

-2- Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,A = Bb MAJOR

-3- Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D = Eb MAJOR

-4- Ab,Bb,C,Db,Eb,F,G = Ab MAJOR

-5- Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,Bb,C = Db MAJOR

-6- Gb,Ab,Bb,Cb,Db,Eb,F = Gb MAJOR

-7- Cb,Db,Eb,Fb,Gb,Ab,Bb = Cb MAJOR

Chords

The numbers below refer to intervals in the scale

1,3,5 = Major triad

1,2,5 = Sustained 2 chord (Sus2)

1,4,5 = Sustained 4 chord (Sus4)

1,3,5,7 = add7 Chord

To make more intersting versions of these move the 1 (root) note up or down the an octave this is called a first inversion when you start moving other notes these are second and third inversions.

There are loads more chords but these are all I can confidently talk about for now.

At least now for those who do not know about scales etc or how to find root note as I didnt last week! this is a good reference point for someone starting out.


EDIT - I havent done the minor lesson yet in case anyone asks.

Good chart. Playing the instrument and using movable shapes help realize this pattern (this is more obvious on guitar than piano, though).

Re: The cycle of fifths - Most essential piece of music theory

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c EDIT - I havent done the minor lesson yet in case anyone asks.

i think minor the same layout, just starting from the 6th degree

so it would go

m m M m m M m


c# M = C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B#

the relative minor is
A# m = A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, F#, G#

harmonic minor is where you take the 7th degree and up it by half a step

Ok can we turn this thread into a share what you know about theory because it would help so many. One thing I want to know is how in some tunes the big pad drop is real euphoric and moody and it builds and builds but then seems to gain energy as the chords are higher. Not an octave higer mind but just higher. These cant be just inversions or the harmonics would remain the same. Does anyone know what i mean. It could be a key change but does anyone know the theory behind changing the key of a trance song without sounding to out of place?

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c share what you know about theory

Change the title then.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Ok can we turn this thread into a share what you know about theory because it would help so many. One thing I want to know is how in some tunes the big pad drop is real euphoric and moody and it builds and builds but then seems to gain energy as the chords are higher. Not an octave higer mind but just higher. These cant be just inversions or the harmonics would remain the same. Does anyone know what i mean. It could be a key change but does anyone know the theory behind changing the key of a trance song without sounding to out of place?

IMO you make it sound like some supercomputer makes the trance tune

Not sure how many artists use music theory , but i know sasha is a trained pianist.Maybe its many?

But i would go that the guy sits there listening to the sample hundreds of times over to make sure it sounds right.But thats me and im still learning.

dont flame me if this isnt your way of thinking peeps

How do those circle of triads help to make good chord progressions?
Also are they really needed because you can always write all you songs in Aminor/Cmajor and then just transpose them?

Ooooh if my music teacher heard you sat that he'd have kittens. Its needed as I found out when I asked him how do trance artists get those big euphoric chords etc. he immediately say down and played something that at the moment it would take me weeks to painstakingly write trial and error way.

Seriously the guy is currently writing a concierto for a PHD in music composition. He can play real nice chord seq's just without thinking I ask him how he said he learned theory!

I think if you dont know theory then the only way to write is trial and error which is how i do it. This method takes weeks sometimes to come up with some convincing chords. How easy would it be if I was my music teacher and I could sit and go 10 seconds euphoric chords and bam the composing begins!

Just play with the keyboard? Starting from chord a minor, the rest comes by itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Ooooh if my music teacher heard you sat that he'd have kittens. Its needed as I found out when I asked him how do trance artists get those big euphoric chords etc. he immediately say down and played something that at the moment it would take me weeks to painstakingly write trial and error way. Seriously the guy is currently writing a concierto for a PHD in music composition. He can play real nice chord seq's just without thinking I ask him how he said he learned theory! I think if you dont know theory then the only way to write is trial and error which is how i do it. This method takes weeks sometimes to come up with some convincing chords. How easy would it be if I was my music teacher and I could sit and go 10 seconds euphoric chords and bam the composing begins!

Um, yeah... the "circle of fifths" doesn't really have much to do with chord progressions, it's basically a mnemonic device for people to remember key signatures. I never even learned the "circle" - I already played the piano and scales and keys were stuff that we were just expected to know.

I'm not disparaging it or anything, it's all well and good as a teaching tool for people who haven't learned rudiments yet, but it's just that - a teaching tool, not a compositional tool. To suggest that it's the only alternative to trial-and-error (or even that it is a meaningful alternative by itself) is, well, silly.

Also, as much as I hate to admit it, offensive_newbi is correct - in this digital age, if you really want your track to be in a different key, you can just write it in whatever key you're comfortable with and tell your sequencer to transpose it. It's not how I work, but I can't honestly say I see anything wrong with it. I'm surprised to find myself saying that... guess I don't care about musical purity as much as I used to.

I dunno, sorry to be negative but I've seen so many of these "teach me theory in 30 words or less" threads that it's gotten kind of old. I'm all in favour of exchanging personalized rules or patterns people follow for counterpoints or chord progressions (although I suspect they tend to exist inside people's heads without ever being formalized), but that kind of thing can only be useful after you've already learned how to write bland baroque music on a crack high with one hand tied behind your back.

It's really, really hard to learn formal music theory in piecemeal fashion. That's why almost every theory program out there starts by drilling you with scales, then keys, then intervals, then chords, and doesn't even touch on melodies and harmonies until after you can remember the rudiments as readily as your own last name.

Different positions on the piano can lead to different ideas being expressed because your hands naturally flow to different places. So it is worth occasionally playing outside of amin/cmaj.

quote:

Diginut

Who the hell are you anyway

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Different positions on the piano can lead to different ideas being expressed because your hands naturally flow to different places. So it is worth occasionally playing outside of amin/cmaj.

Well I agree with this. But the amin/cmaj is goot for a newbie. Yes the problem is that they always tend to flow to same places, but just being in a different key, maybe it helps? Also it is a good idea to uh start from f and establish the tonality around f and eh use lydian mode.

It is hard to come up with new creative chord progressions and melodies that are still euphoric trancy and sounds good and are not already heard in some other tracks.

As have been said many times. It is quite easy to come up with something that is average buut very hard to make something awesome!

Yeah, it helps me. Can't guarantee anything for you, but personally it allows me to come up with chords pogressions which are unusual. Then again, I play very much by ear, and have quite a good ear, it may not work for someone who doesn't intrinsically know what sounds good or what they want...

EDIT: Sorry, it sounds like I'm implying you don't know what you want/ have no ear. Didn't mean it that way.

it's kinda like painting by numbers for music...

i like to just randomly go on tangents and brainstorm sounds... not saying it works better, but i find it more fun

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Ok can we turn this thread into a share what you know about theory because it would help so many. One thing I want to know is how in some tunes the big pad drop is real euphoric and moody and it builds and builds but then seems to gain energy as the chords are higher. Not an octave higer mind but just higher. These cant be just inversions or the harmonics would remain the same. Does anyone know what i mean. It could be a key change but does anyone know the theory behind changing the key of a trance song without sounding to out of place?

i think a way of gaining energy in the pads as they build is to maybe to cut the high end to begin with then gradually bring it in then eventually have a little boost around the 5kHz range maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by djandymac i think a way of gaining energy in the pads as they build is to maybe to cut the high end to begin with then gradually bring it in then eventually have a little boost around the 5kHz range maybe.

See useful to the thread!

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c See useful to the thread!

layering works well for pads.a sring section is how i go about making my shit build and work for me.
i recomend this to anyone practice first by pulling on all the real music synths you have.select a nice siring play a few notes or cords and look for the other srings and sounds you need or like dont always go for the good one every time other wise it wont balance out.

how about lowpass filter?

I think I can do this in under 30 (well maybe) words.

Western Tonality in a nutshell.

-Quality types-
(i'm using C as a base)

Major:
C-E-G

Minor:
C-Eb-G

Diminished:
C-Eb-Gb

So pretty much I'm gonna try to teach ppl how to make good chord progressions.

Uppercase is a major chord, lowercase is minor, and this* is diminished.

MAJOR:
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii*

Minor:
i-ii*-III-iv-v(V)-VI-VII

Every key or scale has these chords build into them. If you move from your ROOT chord to other chords it will sound good. Pretty much id you are in C major then you move to a D minor it's gonna sound good because D minor is a part of the C major chord progression.

What I think some ppl get stuck on is they think that if they are in a minor key, all their chords should be minor, NO. You wanna switch from minor to major.

Also if you are finding it hard on choosing where to go next in your chord progression try useing this.

Up a 4th, down a 3rd, up a 1st. Up a step would be this, you are on C you move up 4 from C which is F (you start counting 1 on the not you start on).

You know I could go on and on, just about good chord progressions, but I'm gonna stop here cause this is getting kinda long.

quote:

Originally posted by offensive_newbi how about lowpass filter?

could make the pads sound dull, unless u mean to start with then bring the high freqs back in to gain energy.

a way i learned to remember the keys of a major chord were the pattern, its the same for every major chord and goes like so:

wt = whole tone
st = semi tone

wt,wt,st,wt,wt,wt,st

quote:

Originally posted by Frost-RAVEN I think I can do this in under 30 (well maybe) words. Western Tonality in a nutshell. -Quality types- (i'm using C as a base) Major: C-E-G Minor: C-Eb-G Diminished: C-Eb-Gb So pretty much I'm gonna try to teach ppl how to make good chord progressions. Uppercase is a major chord, lowercase is minor, and this* is diminished. MAJOR: I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii* Minor: i-ii*-III-iv-v(V)-VI-VII Every key or scale has these chords build into them. If you move from your ROOT chord to other chords it will sound good. Pretty much id you are in C major then you move to a D minor it's gonna sound good because D minor is a part of the C major chord progression. What I think some ppl get stuck on is they think that if they are in a minor key, all their chords should be minor, NO. You wanna switch from minor to major. Also if you are finding it hard on choosing where to go next in your chord progression try useing this. Up a 4th, down a 3rd, up a 1st. Up a step would be this, you are on C you move up 4 from C which is F (you start counting 1 on the not you start on). You know I could go on and on, just about good chord progressions, but I'm gonna stop here cause this is getting kinda long.

PLEASE CONTINUE THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD!

Seriously I know most of you know all this already but i can assure you there are lots of people like me who these bits of info really help!

quote:

Originally posted by djandymac could make the pads sound dull, unless u mean to start with then bring the high freqs back in to gain energy.

yes thats what i meant!

Here are some interesting link about voice leading for everyone:


general guide about voice leading:
http://www.tonalityguide.com/tkvoiceleading.php

a very good lesson on youngcomposers.com. Understanding and learning all that requires some time and patience though

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum...aeus-10757.html

another one:


http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum...tist-10759.html

How to use neapolitan sixth chord:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230781

wikipedia article about musical modes, good to know!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode


And remember. A newbie, who just starts producing without any musical experience often does too random or too predictable melodies.

With too random melodies, well they sound just like a random note generator (bad).

And with too predictable melodies you'll sound like a newbieish generic trance song.

Sometimes they produce a somewhat decent melody but which might have some parts or notes horribly clashing with others. And or the tonal center might abruptly move at inappropriate place and without preparation.

I plan to make some examples of these things but I currently feel very unispired, maybe i'll try later today.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c PLEASE CONTINUE THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD! Seriously I know most of you know all this already but i can assure you there are lots of people like me who these bits of info really help!

Okay...

So now that you sorta understand the I ii iii IV V vi vii* & i ii* III iv v(V) VI VII thing, there are certain chords from these that move better to certain places.

Oh btw, the reason why in the minor chord progression i have v(V) is because you are aloud to move certain notes in the minor scale. The major V chord is really important, just take my word for it okay. If ppl really wanna know why, that's like pages and pages.

ANYWAY...

I & i, this is the root, the tonic, or the one. It can pretty much go anywhere and it will sound good, because it's your base note. Though moving up a 4th, down a 3rd, and up a 1st, isn't a bad choice as I said in my earlier post.

ii,ii*,IV,iv,ii7,ii7*, yeah i know I threw some 7s on there all that means is your adding an extra note to the chord, IE C-E-G-B, anyway. These chords are known as sub-dominant function chords. You can also employ the up 4, down 3, up 1 method and it will work out, but where this chord realllly wants to go is to the dominant function chord (WTF is that?). I'll tell you what that is.

V & vii*, these are known as dominant function chords. The V is probably the most important chord EVER. These chords want to go somewhere pretty specific, and that is back to the tonic, or the I & i. The reason is because the third note in that chord is the leading tone. If that sounds like made theory stuff then just take my word for it, the V wants to go back to I or i. The vii*, which sounds cool cause it's diminished MUST go to the one, it's the only place it can go. If you wanna pull a Chopin, you can make it go to the ii, but pretty much it should go to the I/i. There is one exception, the V can go to the vi/VI
and it sound pretty cool. There is a fancy name for that progression btw.

All this chord stuff assumes that you have good voice leading.

Okay so if enough like my babblings about music theory (btw I got a B in the class), I'll continue with more of it.

Frost raven your a legend! Actually the reason i joined this forum was to ask about chords (usually end up gettin flamed though) and the reason I went to University is to learn theory but we ahve not got to that bit yet and no one has broke it down like this before. Im printing this shit and practising Thanks like a LOT!

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