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The Future of Electronica / MP3 / Internet Radio...

Prior to the average person having heard about Napster, I (and thousands of others) used it as a tool to hear music we would never have been exposed to otherwise. Sure, there were raves going on - but I wasn't going to them - and it is not as if the radio stations here ever play electronica (maybe 1 or 2 in the wee hours of the morning, but that's about it)

Many seem to blame the recent drop in record sales globally on the proliferation of MP3 and people who "burn" their music instead of purchasing it. If this were indeed the case then you would expect there to be a direct relation between the # of individuals using music file sharing/peer-to-peer services and the decline in record sales. I don't have the figures handy (do any of you?) but I've seen them before and there is a discrepancy. The record companies are scrambling because they see no easy solution to this problem - no amount of marketing can aid in controlling the copying that takes place. What is to blame? Recording artists who are signed to multi-year/multi-album contracts who are come out with a couple of good songs and then have a bunch of other songs that are basically "filler". Consumers then are less likely to want to spend the $15-$20 to purchase it knowing that the majority of the songs are not worth their time - so, what do they do? They download them. While the dispute over "blank" audio cassettes and recording from radio in the 80s caused debate it was no where near the attention MP3 (aka the 'recorded' cassette) & the internet(the method of distribution) have received.

The media have been successful in demonizing "MP3" even though it, by itself, is nothing but a standard. This has led to many believing that anything that has to do with MP3 must be evil since it is "ripping off" the industry.

This may be true for mainstream music, but what about the majority of electronica? How many people can actually name the original producers / track names / remixers of popular tracks? Not many. Those that can are either avid electronica buffs to begin with OR live in a country where this kind of music receives significant airplay that has the person on the radio talking about the producer/track name - otherwise, how would they know? Consumers in North America are not willing to risk spending 50% to 100% more on an imported electronica compilation if they are not familiar with a) the quality of past releases in the series or b) the tracks featured on the CD

This non-familiarity with the producers of the music means that those producers themselves have trouble gaining a reputation for themselves on their own, they must rely on popular DJs to play their tracks and hope for the popularity to propagate. In the same way, having your track featured on a popular "compilation series" (say Global Underground, Tunnel Trance Force, etc.) will also gain you recognition - but on a global scale electronica has very poor proliferation.

In many parts of the world there isn't much electronica on radio, it's restricted to certain parties/clubs and it is up to the individual to seek out this music on their own. The strangle-hold/influence that the USA has on musical tastes worldwide is apparent - both from foreign countries buying into American TV programming and integrating some of their cultural practices (and musical tastes) into their own. This makes it even more difficult to promote electronica. How many 'popular' electronica tracks get produced by people who live outside Europe? Sure, there are a few notables in Canada/USA but if you put the numbers side by side you can clearly see the disparity.

As these European producers begin to age their tastes may begin to shift, many European countries have been exposed to Electronica as a whole for many, many years. North America is way behind music in terms of Electronica - but - will this ever change? How can it. It is becoming increasingly difficult for people in certain states in the USA (and some parts of Canada) to organize big electronica parties because of all the legal requirements AND the increasing rates that many popular European DJs charge to spin their sets. Their market price is mainly driven by European demand - I mean, why should they fly overseas when they can easily stay within Europe - less jet-lag, right?

So, if the demand for Electronica in Europe declines then it would make sense that some of the producers of this music would lose interest and move on to other endeavours in order to make a living - resulting in less and less new, quality content - and a declining interest globally as a consequence.

Point being, were it not for MP3 many producers would not have such a loyal fan following and many DJs would not be in enough demand to be flown outside of Europe to spin a set. Live DJ sets are a great way to get to know a DJ's style, and having a few singles from those sets spread around only helps to expose it to other DJs who go out and buy the vinyl to spin it themselves. Internet Radio has helped in spreading Electronica - but even that too is at risk now.

I italicized 'many' because there are people that have followed electronica for years here in Canada/USA prior to MP3s being widespread, but, those are only a handful of people in comparison

Sorry for the long message, but I just had this shit floating around my head all week.

Yeah, good thoughts

I think the mp3 spread has definitely been beneficial to the electronica industry because it is hard to find some of the rarer songs on certain mixes and CDs. I played some Sasha and Digweed for my friends, and they all went out and bought CDs because they wanted a lot of quality music. Not weird remixes and stuff, they wanted the real thing. Countless times ive played a sample (sometimes thats all you can find) and people go out and buy the CD. NO ONE knows much about this genre, and its sad. Pretty much everyone loves it when they hear it, just the frigging media and government here in US make raves impossible like you said, and media makes everyone who listens to it a whacked out drug addict. The majority of people would still rather buy a CD, because most people dont know much about file sharing and burning. They have to have a "hook-up" to get their burned CDs hehe. US just looks down on partying and clubbing generally and raves and electronica are the serious epitome of that. I dont know what can be done, but I think the file sharing has gotten not only my friends, but me, into a lot of sub genres and DJs wed never heard of, and gone out to purchase a more complete set of stuff.

Maybe the mainstream musik out now is shit, so no one is buying, and more people are listening to older musik they already have. If MP3's disappear, so will our favorite DJ's careers and money. I knew about electronica before MP3's, but never had the knowledge I had now. I don't think MP3's of electronica will ever die, because half the shit we listen to it white labels and live sets, and the more you look, the more shit is on internet radio. I'm not losing any sleep over it...

Napster is what got me into good trance....

this site and the boards got me into really good trance music

if it wasnt for Mp3 i would of been listen to other types of music...and listen to euro dance music and commercial crap...thank go for mp3 and the internet....

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Originally posted by trance[]control-fan if it wasnt for Mp3 i would of been listen to other types of music...and listen to euro dance music and commercial crap...thank go for mp3 and the internet....

I can say the same. I think mp3's kill the commercial stuff a lot but not as much as electronica. I wouldn't have bought all the cd's I have now without mp3's. I use to hate buying a cd and finding that I only liked 3 songs on it

I do feel sorry for Mainstreem artists such as Britney Spears and the pop industry, because they only sell music on Cd, which can be easily burnt onto a cd with a cue file and covers printed.

But as for electronica artists, I think they should think themselves lucky that Mp3 files was created. Their main income is through the the sales and distribution of 12". Only commercial trance/electronica gets put onto CD. My Point being that thousands of people listen before they buy. Release groups do a good job of releasing Mp3's from promos (although they are gettin extremily big headed) and people are able to hear the music, if they like the music they will go and buy. All the 12" i have has been downloaded prior.

12" is expensive, especially the underground stuff which most of us are interested in. Most 12" i buy from JUNO.co.uk (which is a very cheap site) retails around �6.50 mainly because it is imported from around europe.

So people arent just gonna buy 12" not knowing what is on the 12". I wouldnt even buy a 12" from tiesto unless i had heard the Mp3 first. Sure his prior releases are excellent, but take his remix of Kosheen -Hungry, what a load of cop that was!.

So basically im saying....
Mp3's are being used as great promotional tools to electronica artists. Without their being mp3's for electronica, especially Trance i believe that 12" sales would decline IMMENSELY.

Re: The Future of Electronica / MP3 / Internet Radio...

quote:

Originally posted by Swamper ... As these European producers begin to age their tastes may begin to shift, many European countries have been exposed to Electronica as a whole for many, many years. ... So, if the demand for Electronica in Europe declines then it would make sense that some of the producers of this music would lose interest and move on to other endeavours in order to make a living - resulting in less and less new, quality content - and a declining interest globally as a consequence.

I think we are seeing this already. After all it's been litterally *years* since we last saw an anthem of "Caf� del Mar"/"1998"/"Orange Theme"/"Lizard"/"Age of Love" standard. Personally, I feel less enticament to go out and buy CDs these days, as mostly the tried-and-tested producers seem to have run out of steam/fresh ideas. Examples could be RMB, Yves Deruyter, Push, Ferry Corsten, Taucher, Tiesto, Armin Van Buuren etc. All have released below usual standard stuff the last couple of years - and I don't see fresh talent emerge to replace them. Furthermore, I don't see a lot of new fans entering the electronica world today, perhaps underlining that we are in a quality-crisis.

MP3s might be helping to slow down this development, or maybe they are only helping brand-DJs (like Tiesto) get recognition in the entire world instead of helping unknown talent. I think MP3s of new and/or obscure tracks are mighty hard to get hold of. Sure, if you are going for the newest PvD track it will be all over Audiogalaxy, but if you need some wicked remix of some Ricky LeRoy track you're in for a challenge.

What would be needed - in my view - is a site where you could download *every* track known to mankind in shitty quality (like 96kbs), and then purchase a good quality version if you liked it. At least that way, I would start spending more than 25$ a month on music.

I couldn't agree with you more.

In fact, Napster is what got me interested into what exactly "trance" was. Cuz I liked electronic music, and I just typed in "techno" into Napster. The thing I happened to download was a set called "DJ Tiesto - Live at Magik VI Amsterdam" This totally blew my mind. So I investigated it more and more. And thats what really got me into the whole electronic scene.

I am glad for MP3s because its opens up the door to music that I never would have otherwise.

Bah, That makes no sense, but I alreadyt yped it all, so I'm gonna post it. LOL

I've posted thoughts on this before, but there is a lot of evidence that suggests CD burning and MP3 trading are not directly responsible for declining music sales.

The music industry has long been guilty of price-fixing, and it seems this practice has finally caught up on them. Also, music companies make their biggest profits on album sales. Which is why they don't sell any singles - it costs roughly the same to produce a single that retails (in oz anyway) for about $AU10-15, than it does to produce an album that retails for $AU30+. And the imported double CD stuff, like Ministry of Sound crap can get as high as $50-$60.

But if people hear a song on the radio that they like, most people won't mind buying the single - you know what you're getting. But you can't buy the single, only the album, which is 2-3 times the price, and you don't know if you're going to like it. So you go home without buying anything, and download the track

Bingo, there goes another sale. If record companies actually knew how to cater to a market rather than just selling what directly makes the most money, they wouldn't be in the fix that they are now.

Note: if you want to read something that'll make u vomit, check out Why the RIAA thinks CDs are "great value!" Incidentally, I like the way they talk about being able to listen to CDs anywhere etc, which makes one wonder why they're starting to develop and sell CDs that can't be played in computers. I also like the way their sales figures end conveniently at 1996, just when all the price fixing began.

Makes you wonder, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I think we are seeing this already. After all it's been litterally *years* since we last saw an anthem of "Caf� del Mar"/"1998"/"Orange Theme"/"Lizard"/"Age of Love" standard. Personally, I feel less enticament to go out and buy CDs these days, as mostly the tried-and-tested producers seem to have run out of steam/fresh ideas. Examples could be RMB, Yves Deruyter, Push, Ferry Corsten, Taucher, Tiesto, Armin Van Buuren etc. All have released below usual standard stuff the last couple of years - and I don't see fresh talent emerge to replace them.

Not to bring back a dead thread, but this quote's been on my mind for quite a while. A slightly bigger issue than whether or not to shave your balls.

I'd like to know how many of you check out the amateur producers' forum here. Yes, I hear you, "It's all newbie crap!!" but anywhere you go, 90% of what you find is crap and 10% is PURE GOLD. Sometimes the 10% is right in your face, sometimes you have to look long and hard for it.

If I'm not mistaken it was MP3.com that helped break PPK and Astral Projection big. Even as bad as dot-con are, they're a decent resource and they're going to hang around - they settled all their lawsuits (F**K YOU DEBBIE!!)

quote:

MP3s might be helping to slow down this development, or maybe they are only helping brand-DJs (like Tiesto) get recognition in the entire world instead of helping unknown talent. I think MP3s of new and/or obscure tracks are mighty hard to get hold of. Sure, if you are going for the newest PvD track it will be all over Audiogalaxy, but if you need some wicked remix of some Ricky LeRoy track you're in for a challenge. What would be needed - in my view - is a site where you could download *every* track known to mankind in shitty quality (like 96kbs), and then purchase a good quality version if you liked it.

Yep...but the question is what level of underground would that site reach down to? There's the middle ground of imports on small labels, then right below it there's do-it-yourselfers who, for all we know, could be half the white-label presses; and right at the bottom is an unfinished track in joe nobody's bedroom. So it all depends where the line between super-rare release and "starving indie" is drawn.

Of course it's all about quality, but that's only determined once you get to hear it.

There is a musical revolution coming.

i will post more on this when i have collected my thoughts properly in a week or two.

this will change everything, at least for trance.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Bod I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, Napster is what got me interested into what exactly "trance" was. Cuz I liked electronic music, and I just typed in "techno" into Napster. The thing I happened to download was a set called "DJ Tiesto - Live at Magik VI Amsterdam" This totally blew my mind. So I investigated it more and more. And thats what really got me into the whole electronic scene. I am glad for MP3s because its opens up the door to music that I never would have otherwise. Bah, That makes no sense, but I alreadyt yped it all, so I'm gonna post it. LOL

It makes perfect sense. and Magick 6 is the best set EVER, and i have listened to hundreds if not thousands of sets. it's the culmination of the trance genre.

anyway.. onto my thought collecting.

quote:

Originally posted by Taz I'd like to know how many of you check out the amateur producers' forum here. Yes, I hear you, "It's all newbie crap!!" but anywhere you go, 90% of what you find is crap and 10% is PURE GOLD. Sometimes the 10% is right in your face, sometimes you have to look long and hard for it. If I'm not mistaken it was MP3.com that helped break PPK and Astral Projection big. Even as bad as dot-con are, they're a decent resource and they're going to hang around - they settled all their lawsuits (F**K YOU DEBBIE!!)

You are absolutely right when insuniating that I am a hypocrite. I never check out the amateurs section anymore. Guess I bumped into the wrong 90% the first times. Trouble is, I need to listen to a track all the way through in order to judge whether it is good or not. Currently I have some 140 hours of unheard mp3s on my playlist, of which only 2 or 3 will survive two testlistens. Why then, you might aks, don't I download amateur stuff instead - well, it is probably because the 138 hours of anonymous music in my playlist isn't bad, it is just not good. When I listen to the bad part of amateur music it is not only "not good", it's downright annoying. Thus, the 140 hours of listening will be much more of a pain, than the simple absence of good music.

I once read an interview with Mauro Picotto, in which he said that it took him some days to remix a track, and a lot longer to create one from the bottom up. When I listen to amateur music I get a feeling that most of it is made in a night or two. Even "famous" amateurs such as Raymond Wave, trance[]control, PPK and Astral Projection, has yet to impress me. But, I'm open to give a testlisten to any track you might suggest to me, that can be found in the amateur-section - I hope there *are* some gold there

The 'standardization'* of the MP3 format has made things portable and more accessable then ever.
This 'portability' of music has taken RIAA, the producers and distributors from a stranglehold situation to literally sand in their hands and they don't know what to do.
They strike at everything in hopes of stamping out a wildfire that's already out of their control.
They no longer hold all the cards and ironically enough, it's their own customer base driving the boat instead of them at the rudder.
They have to do something fast or slowly watch their coffers dry up, year after year.
People like the idea of not being force fed what the record companies think is 'good' music.

Eletronics manufacurers have already succumed to the will of the people and after a few failed attempts at a some proprietary music formats in software and hardware; have had to accept MP3 as the de facto standard.

In an ever growing Internet World, it's all about customization and convenience.
Some people like myself, shop off the internet for mundane things because I don't want to be bothered to go to the store and waste an hour or so to get my toothpaste or tomatoes when I can have it delivered to my door.
I found my car through a customized search engine in 30 min. when I needed to get one last time and didn't have to put up with sales people (much) and was armed to the gills regarding the car and their dealership propoganda.
MP3s are a great way to size an artist up. If they're new and I've never heard of them before, I'll download a few or more tracks to determine if I'm going to spend a couple of hours going to the music store and waste my money because of a few good tracks of a $17-$20-$30 CD.
If they're any good, of course I'll buy the CD and support the artist.
If they only have a few tracks I like, then I customize a CD and pull together a few stray tracks here and there to make a full one up with stuff I want.

Technology is all about smaller, faster, cheaper.
The MP3 format isn't going anywhere for a while, until another cleaner more compressable format comes along.
Remember the big 12" movie laser discs? Now down to CD size in the form of DVDs.
Record manufacturers were wiped out in less then 10 years when CDs showed up. Can you image the kind of hairpin turn the record distributors had to do when CDs first came out? Now they have to contend with MP3s. A compression that's too small to sell. This time round, they can't alter and manufacture what they can't control, bandwidth.
And that my friends is why they are in a loosing battle.
They don't control the nebulus internet pipes or the laws that govern them.
They're forced to comply or die.
I'm sure they won't go down easily and I'm not seeing too many brilliant strategies from them either other than to grab as many people on the way down as they can...

* It's really NOT a standard; just widely accepted

I think that this hasnt got must to do with trance/dance music, with things like audiogalaxy shutting down.

But over the last few years record sales in commercial chart music has dropped massivley. This is becuase the average person can now download there favourite tune easily, and even somebody with little music or computer/internet knowledge can burn,a nd download the latest tracks. This means that people dont go out and buy the tracks anymore.

People will always want soemthign for nothing - fact

But with the trance scene and dance scene this has deffinatly helped the scene, it means that the latest tracks and livesets r heard all over the world, and developing huge demand for the djs to go and spin there, so this has helped the explosion in trance especially in the last few years.

quote:

You are absolutely right when insuniating that I am a hypocrite.

No no NO!! I didn't mean what I wrote as in "aha! I caught you!", I really wanted to know how many people snoop around in the amateurs' section. I check things out in there if I see some sign that someone worked on a track for a long time after some wicked flash of inspiration.

Honestly, I remember the first time I checked out some songs on MP3.com back in '99. Even though they were all from different people, they all had this same elevator-music vibe to them, a gross uniform blandness. Then when I got into the message boards and dug further, some amazing shit cropped up! Stuff with soul, even though it wasn't perfect. Back to reality - that was a phase, and I don't make time for that now.

quote:

Thus, the 140 hours of listening will be much more of a pain, than the simple absence of good music.

I can relate. So it's a question of filters - what makes something worth checking out in the first place?

quote:

People will always want something for nothing - fact

You mean there's no such thing as guilt? No such thing as the common sense of knowing that unless someone gets paid there'll be no more from where that song came from? Nah. I think the more realistic problem is procrastination. "I'll buy the CD when I can afford it."

I agree with the idea that record companies took a wrong turn when they got rid of singles. They were cheap, they were cool, you could buy 'em with whatever you had left in your wallet that day.

I think my dad got it perfectly a little while ago when we were both getting into Napster. he told me that in a few years, the only way musicians are going to be able to make money is by doing shows and other live performances.

the way we're heading, that could be true

Swamper, that was the best post on this subject i have ever seen.

I highly respect you for saying what you did, and thank you from the bottom of my heart for this site.

The future is indeed in question for electronic music.

Today, an announcement will be made by CARP about the royalty fees on webcasting.

check this site later on to find out what the fee will be:
http://www.copyright.gov/carp/webcasting_rates.html

as for the future of electronic music.. I am still thinking.
I will be back in a while.

Spot on, my thoughts exactly. Though I don't think there's much chance of the electronica scene dying in Europe just yet

quote:

as for the future of electronic music.. I am still thinking.

We're waiting...

We are in the Time of Change. Technology evolves rapidly. A lot of old ideas/customs are revolted. Back in the days when JS Bach was alive, he would have never imagined people could print the score and sell them to make profits just a few decades after his death. To more recently, in the 50s just when elvis brought rockabily to smash hit, the adults were aware of the problems arising between the music and the youths and tried to fight back. We consider these are histories now as the same way our decendants would consider this moment of ours. People always look into what they can get from music/the scene only, blaming the incidents/entities that are against them as benefitted ones, making excuses and stories to cover the fact that they have the same ugly humanity as the other side. Just as we always sit in front of the monitor and critize the genres/artist/productions, have we ever tried to help rather than just plain talking? Maybe the era of war in fleshes are passing away. But people aren't perfect yet with all our minds/politics/theories/emotions/etc. are still in such regressive way. We demand revolutions in spiritual boundaries. There are always people, usually the benefitted ones of the moment, trying to fight against the new ideas. Just watch as time passes by... The ignorants will always be banished in the history. Live and fight on if you still insist to do... Decades/centuries later, winner will always be it and there will be shame in the names of the losers... RIAA...

On a totally differet yet similar note

Do the artists and makers of music really deserve to make the utterly digusting amounts of money they make? I'm not limiting this question to the genre of electronic dance music; the question includes the entire range of music.

A lot of major pop stars (by pop stars, I don't mean the pop genre, but any artist who isn't underground) make such amounts of money that it is an insult to the poor. A lot of it comes from promotions and advertisements, but the substantial part of it comes from their CD sales. Why are CDs priced in the $15-20 range? It's an arbitrary price which record companies set.

Just because there is a declining sale in CDs and albums on other media, it's no alarm for concern. The music industry is still making such a gross profit, from the artists to the producers. People are greedy, from those who download music for free and those who work in music companies. The people who work in music companies don't really have the right to complain if they are losing 10% of what they earn, but are still making a profit. Because that money didn't belong to them in the first place - the money came from loyal fans who paid for a disc. How do you compensate a fan when they don't like the disc? In the modern world, you can get a refund for a product you don't like. But you can't pay for half a CD and then justify by saying "I don't like half the songs".

To reiterate what Swamper and a few others said, the balance of power has shifted towards the fans. However, it's not an absolute shift. There are those who still prefer to buy their CDs. But in the end, everyone will get what they deserve, because not everyone who buys CDs enjoy 100% of the songs. So, the compensation is where those who didn't pay for the CD, but still have the songs; those who pay full price cover those who buy CDs.

*Bump*

Almost 7 Years later... how much has changed?

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