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Actual Facism... Actually Happening

I smell some serious denial on this board regarding all of the "isms"... all Obama supporters vehemently supporting him any time a "wild" accusaion of socialism, facism, whatever comes up. It made me think of this article I read the other day. Again, it's by the author known as Doctor Zero... the last article I posted by him called "The Right To Everything" sparked a nice debate, and this one will too.

Why? Because it is so well explained that I'd like to see the Leftys on here explain why he's wrong regarding the dangerous line this government is walking right now. It's long but worth the read... don't bitch out half way through because you think you've got the gist- the 2nd half of the article pulls it all together.

quote:

The Eff Word by Doctor Zero Fascism. It�s the ultimate political epithet, the atomic blast that ends calm and measured debate. This makes those who seek to be reasonable and persuasive understandably reluctant to use the word� and those who aren�t interested in either reason or persuasion eager to hurl it at their opponents. There is nothing surprising about the visceral emotions conjured by the mention of its name. The history of fascism is written in the blood of innocents, on a scale that challenges the limits of human imagination. Our natural repulsion from the concept of fascism, coupled with the way it has been cheapened by decades of use as a casual insult by the Left, makes it difficult for us to study it dispassionately. It is important to make that study, because fascism was not a mystical phenomenon, a curse inflicted on the Axis nations through the supernatural charisma of Mussolini and Hitler. Too many people recall the garish and horrifying trappings of Nazi Germany, and think �it couldn�t happen here.� It has happened here. It�s happening again now. We do ourselves no favors by refusing to see it, any more than we would be helping ourselves by throwing around baseless accusations of fascism where it does not exist. Fascism, like communism and socialism, is a form of collectivist politics. As the great author H.P. Lovecraft put it, when describing the dark gods of his horror stories: �Many names, one nightmare.� These philosophies share a belief in the supreme power and virtue of the central State. Under communism, government owns the means of production � there is no private industry. In a socialist system, the State is nominally separate from private industry, but it siphons large amounts of money from the private sector to fund the socialist agenda. Fascism maintains private industry, but places it under the direct control of the government. Private industry still exists, but the State sets production goals, directly controls economic activity, and dominates the management of corporations. Industry becomes enslaved to political goals. Modern audiences, raised on a steady diet of movies about World War II, think of fascism as either inhumanly horrifying, or completely absurd, and wonder how anyone in their right minds could have fallen for the fascist sales pitch. In fact, fascism did not seem absurd at all to the intellectuals of the early twentieth century. They thought a wise and all-powerful State, run by the most brilliant minds, would be able to engineer a more advanced society, much as engineers were designing increasingly advanced scientific marvels. The pioneering author of modern science fiction, H.G. Wells, was an outspoken advocate of authoritarian control by a benevolent government of geniuses and academics. His novel The Shape of Things to Come envisions such a government seizing control of the entire world to create a global utopia, called �The Dictatorship of the Air� because the government controls the technology of air travel � which it occasionally uses to drop bombs on those who resist. Here are some excerpts from a famous speech Wells gave to the British Young Liberals Society at Oxford in 1932, reprinted in Jonah Goldberg�s indispensable Liberal Fascism � a phrase Wells actually coins in the speech: We have seen the Fascisti in Italy and a number of clumsy imitations elsewhere, and we have seen the Russian Communist Party coming into existence to reinforce this idea� I am asking for a Liberal Fascisti, for enlightened Nazis� And do not let me leave you in the slightest doubt as to the scope and ambition of what I am putting before you� These new organizations are not merely organizations for the spread of defined opinions� the days of that sort of amateurism are over-they are organizations to replace the dilatory indecisiveness of democracy. The world is sick of parliamentary politics� The world is sick of parliamentary politics. This is an idea that occurs in every strand of collectivist thought. Collectivists only revere democracy until it has voted them sufficient power� then democracy becomes a cumbersome inconvenience that allows selfish, ignorant fools and corporate shills to interfere with the brilliant work of great men. The Democrats fleeing from town hall meetings are also sick of parliamentary politics, as is the President who defiles American government with dozens of unelected, unconfirmed, unaccountable �czars.� Parliamentary politics proved very inconvenient for the President�s health-care takeover and cap-and-trade bills, and have been driving global-warming cultists mad with frustration for years. Why is fascism bad? It seems like a ridiculously understated question, similar to asking why cancer is bad, but the answer is important. The grisly ornaments fascism has worn in the past should not distract from the deeper reality of what it is, and why it fails. The essential flaw of fascism is that it elevates the State to control of its citizens, because controlling the economy requires control of the people. A corporation is a voluntary association of people, not an inanimate machine that can be reprogrammed painlessly by wise government advisers. The people who comprise corporations must be kept alienated from the government�s supporters � fascism requires enemies, and turns feral quickly. The government does not require a majority of the people to support it, in order to maintain power. It can make do with much less than fifty per cent, if they are sufficiently motivated and obedient. In fact, maintaining control through an energized minority is much easier than keeping the majority of the population on board, especially in a large country. The proposition that enlightened government officials should control the economy sounds appealing to those who feel capitalism has not treated them well. No matter what name it operates under, fascism never works. It can�t work. Fascist control might produce short-term gains for its favored constituencies, and the sense of organization it brings might benefit a highly disorganized or demoralized population, such as prewar Germany, for a while. In the long run, fascism falls apart because political control is always less flexible and innovative than free-market competition. The political masters of the economy have a list of alternatives they will not consider, mistakes they will not admit to making, and explanations that simply cannot be true. Since they see the free market as inferior to their intellect and moral judgment, they never study it carefully enough to understand how it really works. They become highly adept at killing the geese that lay golden eggs. Government is a terrible senior partner for any industry, because it has only one thing to bring to the partnership, and that is compulsive force. Everything government does is an expression of force: it collects taxes under the threat of imprisonment or death, blocks access to markets through licensing, and changes the rules of market competition through regulation. A well-run government uses force to protect its citizens, from external threats and internal lawbreakers. As the size of government swells, so does the amount of force deployed to enforce its will. This is inevitable, because force is what a government is. The fascist views private industry as a work horse, yoked to the will of the State� and when the State has exhausted its minimal patience trying to talk the horse into moving faster, there remains only the lash. Political control of the economy never produces the results that would be needed to keep the vital constituencies of the politicians happy, and the only method they can imagine to make their industrial horses work harder is to swing the whip, with increasing anger. The fascist impulse expresses itself differently in different societies. In America, it was first embraced by President Wilson and the Progressives, because it made sense to them, and everyone else in the industrialized world was already doing it � if you�re unfamiliar with the intellectual literature of the Thirties, you would be surprised how often British and American academics fretted about �falling behind� marvelous, fascist Italy and Germany. Fascism�s second life in America began because socialism failed. The system of providing social benefits to an increasingly large dependency class, by taxing a dwindling group of productive citizens, went utterly bankrupt. This is dramatically illustrated by the failure of Obama�s health care plan, which even the most politically disinterested Americans can see we clearly don�t have the money to pay for, with trillions of dollars in debt towering over us. Exit the tax collector� enter the �czar.� When the American Left saw that it could no longer extract enough tax money from an increasingly grumpy, overtaxed electorate, it became logically necessary to compel industry to provide what the Left desires. Wrapping this strategy in high-minded language like �green jobs� does not change its essential nature. The grim pathologies we associate with fascism come as consequences of its original sin, the assertion of direct State control over the economy. The cult of personality forms because the mighty politicians who command the economy must be brilliant supermen � how else could they handle the enormous task they have set for themselves? To support Obama�s domestic policies, you must believe he understands medicine better than doctors and insurance companies, knows more about monetary policy than all the banks he has asserted control over, and has a greater mastery of energy production than the industries he plans to destroy with the cap-and-trade bill. He even knows more about making cars than General Motors� and all of the other auto-makers combined, since the automobile market wanted GM to die, and Obama commuted the death sentence to community service. No wonder the media loves to photograph the man with a halo, and Hollywood celebrities pledge their obedience to him on their knees! Fascism acquires militaristic aspects because a society organized for war is easier to control, and opponents of the State are more easily dismissed as traitors. The American fascists, evolved from socialists and liberals, dislike aggressive wars of military conquest, so they co-opt the language of warfare for domestic policy issues, declaring their policy preferences to be the �moral equivalent of war.� Fascism becomes violent because its supporters develop a tribal hostility to their domestic enemies, which eventually leads them to beat those enemies, and maybe bite off a finger or two. Fascism incubates racism because racial animosity is a powerful glue for holding constituent groups together, and milking them for political support. Is America sliding into fascism? Not completely, or quickly� but it�s a potent venom, deadly in small doses. We should not dismiss the menace of fascism by reasoning that it always comes dressed in black uniforms and jackboots, patrolling the perimeter of concentration camps - so we�re in good shape as long as those horrors are not in evidence. We shouldn�t be fooling around with such a toxic ideology at all. No matter how noble the stated goals at the beginning of the collectivist journey, it always ends at the same destination. Promoting his latest propaganda film, Michael Moore said that �capitalism is evil, and you cannot regulate evil. You have to replace it with something that is good for all people, and that something is democracy.� This is more than just laughable hypocrisy from a millionaire leftist. Capitalism is the exchange of goods and services between free men and women. In the end, there is only one alternative to it, and it is not �democracy.� Many names, one nightmare.

do they not teach politics 101 in school anymore? 17sss you need a refresher.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do they not teach politics 101 in school anymore? 17sss you need a refresher.

I've not yet read the article but this kind of argument simply can't be the only one you have every time you don't agree with someone else. The mere fact that you think something can't be self taught shows how extreme your level of ignorance is. Just have a discussion for fucks sake.

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT I've not yet read the article but this kind of argument simply can't be the only one you have every time you don't agree with someone else. The mere fact that you think something can't be self taught shows how extreme your lever of ignorance is.

im simply stating that he has no idea what fascism is or how it is defined, which is illustrated perfectly by the disingenuous BS he's posted here.

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT Just have a discussion for fucks sake.

as soon as you frauds actually make a topic that's worth responding to. do we really need to go over ever single piece of evidence that shows the US isn't a fascist state, when such pieces of evidence should be readily apparent to those as learned as 17sss?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im simply stating that he has no idea what fascism is or how it is defined, which is illustrated perfectly by the disingenuous BS he's posted here. as soon as you frauds actually make a topic that's worth responding to. do we really need to go over ever single piece of evidence that shows the US isn't a fascist state, when such pieces of evidence should be readily apparent to those as learned as 17sss?

If you think someone is wrong, why not just give your reasons why? Is it that hard to type out? Are you too lazy? I don't get you sometimes. Most of your disagreements hardly consist of any opposing view. It's usually just a "you're wrong idiot" and thats about it. How the hell do you expect anyone to either learn anything or fucking agree with you if that is your reply every fucking time? You're doing it wrong bro.

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT If you think someone is wrong, why not just give your reasons why?

if someone told you the sky was brown would you waste all your time and energy trying to prove them wrong? no, you'd call them a retard and find better ways to spend your time.

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT Is it that hard to type out? Are you too lazy? I don't get you sometimes. Most of your disagreements hardly consist of any opposing view. It's usually just a "you're wrong idiot" and thats about it. How the hell do you expect anyone to either learn anything or fucking agree with you if that is your reply every fucking time? You're doing it wrong bro.

i think i go to great length to present a position when and if it is called for (ie when its worth it). this is a joke of a thread in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN this is a joke of a thread in my opinion.

k, see ya.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if someone told you the sky was brown would you waste all your time and energy trying to prove them wrong? no, you'd call them a retard and find better ways to spend your time.

Actually, I'd say:

"No, it's blue. That colour is called blue."

If there was something else blue around, I'd point at it and say:

"See? Like this. This is also blue."



Which is exactly what Doombot is asking from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Actually, I'd say: "No, it's blue. That colour is called blue." If there was something else blue around, I'd point at it and say: "See? Like this. This is also blue." Which is exactly what Doombot is asking from you.

alright. see germany and italy during the 30s? that's brown. the US in 2009 = blue.

better?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do we really need to go over ever single piece of evidence that shows the US isn't a fascist state, when such pieces of evidence should be readily apparent to those as learned as 17sss?

further evidence you are responding based on the thread title and didn't read the article.... which goes more into detail about defining Facism itself with clear definition and relevant examples throughout its history, and even says:

quote:

Is America sliding into fascism? Not completely, or quickly� but it�s a potent venom, deadly in small doses.

My belief is that based on the examples of how facism operates, one can't help but be nervous at the potential slippery slope we are about to ride.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN alright. see germany and italy during the 30s? that's brown. the US in 2009 = blue. better?

No, you're avoiding writing anything useful towards the discussion because you're lazy, and/or you don't know what you're talking about and are not confident enough to get into any discussion involving specific detail.

In either case, you should desist from responding to the thread, and leave it to the people who have the energy, and knowledge, to deal with the discussion in a full and proper manner.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss further evidence you are responding based on the thread title and didn't read the article.... which goes more into detail about defining Facism itself with clear definition and relevant examples throughout its history, and even says:

i read it until i saw the completely wrong definition of socialism, and then skimmed the rest. its easy to paint anything as "fascism" or "socialism" when you're allowed to make up your own definitions and points of reference.

he provides not one example of how fascism is gaining strength in the US of A, other than some rhetorical BS about how regulation somehow equals fascism.

its obvious you have a brain in your head 17sss, so why you're sucked in by populist, irrational ideological frameworks remains a mystery (at least to me).

quote:

Originally posted by Spam and leave it to the people who have the energy, and knowledge, to deal with the discussion in a full and proper manner.

sure, when will they be arriving?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sure, when will they be arriving?

No idea, the lefties seem to, like... Have jobs, and sleep... And stuff...

quote:

Originally posted by Spam No idea, the lefties seem to, like... Have jobs, and sleep... And stuff...

lols. i really don't see it as a left-right issue. i mean sure, only the far right would equate government regulation to fascism. indeed, as mentioned in the article the label has been watered down by decades of abuse by the left. and now the tables have turned i suppose.

as far as im concerned, throwing around labels in such a way just gives people a poor understanding of what those labels mean (or are meant to mean). you can call your over-sized, over-regulatory government all kinds of things, but fascist isn't one of them.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lols. i really don't see it as a left-right issue. i mean sure, only the far right would equate government regulation to fascism. indeed, as mentioned in the article the label has been watered down by decades of abuse by the left. and now the tables have turned i suppose. as far as im concerned, throwing around labels in such a way just gives people a poor understanding of what those labels mean (or are meant to mean). you can call your over-sized, over-regulatory government all kinds of things, but fascist isn't one of them.

Of course it's a left-right issue.

When the republicans are in power, the lefties cry about the government being/becoming fascist.

When the democrats are in power, the neo-cons cry about the government being/becoming fascist.

It's like, yin and yang. Life's perfect harmony and all that jazz.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Of course it's a left-right issue. When the republicans are in power, the lefties cry about the government being/becoming fascist. When the democrats are in power, the neo-cons cry about the government being/becoming fascist. It's like, yin and yang. Life's perfect harmony and all that jazz.

yeah, but its just ridiculous. i don't know how any meaningful discussion can occur at a legislative level when labels are thrown around willy-nilly by them and everyone else. i don't see what sensationalism does for anything.

government regulation, mixed economies, taxation and similar =/ socialism.
government regulation, mixed economies, taxation and similar =/ fascism.

and there are too many loonies on the loose that try and say otherwise.

Re: Actual Facism... Actually Happening

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Again, it's by the author known as Doctor Zero...

Dr Zero obviously has no foundation in any kind of economic theory or he would have pulled his head out of his arsehole long enough to get a whiff of the fact that there is no such thing as a "free market"

All markets, everywhere are regulated by governments and like everything in economics, extremes of control are just has painfully destructive as minimal supervision. You want the happy moderate middle ground of enough room to participate in economic activity without being strangled by red tape.
'Moderate Middle Ground'
Remember this people if you actually get enough of your own money to rub together for anything like real estate, share and other commodity markets.

What some of us are recovering from is an era of US minimal regulation of its markets and even some of its most respected intellectuals extolling the virtues of this minimisation and everyone following them along like sheep going 'its ok, we don't need the safety rails and training wheels'
Well, that didn't work.
See, out here on the capitalist highway, sometimes people forget that they share it with people that get frightened, some that are short sighted and even some that are selfish... then they're the duds who are just too damn stupid to ever be let near anything with a dollar sign on it and they write their own rules of the road as they go.
If they had training wheels, obeyed the rules of the road and safety barriers of regulation, you don't get them falling over in the middle of the road or crashing over the side FOR THEIR OWN DAMN GOOD.
Because once one goes, they all go and for the cautious of us out there, we risk being caught up in their mess when they screw up.

Minimal regulation and flagrant disregard for laws operating a market produced that bubble in the US economy, which inevitably popped and left you stranded in your current position.
You cannot do what you want.

That article was a load of tripe. Seriously? Isn't this the equivalent of posting "well thought out" diaries from DailyKos about how Bush was a dictator or something? A dictator in small doses is still potent... Jesus.

First of all, the author has bit hook line and sinker on the notion that we ever had a completely capitalist system. By his/her basic assumption of capitalism good, anything else bad, he/she has basically written off any form of mixed economy as inherently socialist or, in this case fascist.

Furthermore, I really wish you'd make up your mind as to whether the US is becoming socialist or fascist. It's quite upsetting how Americans these days don't even comprehend the basics of political theory. You don't have to be a political science major, but if you are "self-educated" as DOOMBOT suggests, then you should probably go back and re-read some basic comparative theory.

Furthermore, isn't the17sss the same exact person who has blamed the Democrats for not giving support to regulating the economy under Bush? Which way would you like it?

You already know the answer to that question.

I think there's a problem with trying to put labels on something that becomes a side-debate to the real issue which is that many feel that they are being forced to surrender more and more individual freedoms to the government in the name of greater "security." It is a progression towards a more and more powerful nanny state. As a tribute to the late John Hughes: "Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."

That said, I found the article to be interesting and thought provoking. I don't think America is headed the way of Nazi Germany or Communist Russia or anything like that, but I think we must always keep a watchful and skeptical eye on what our government is doing. The passage I particularly liked from Dr. Zero's article (why must he go by Dr. Zero? Just put your damn name on the article if you stand behind it!)

quote:

Government is a terrible senior partner for any industry, because it has only one thing to bring to the partnership, and that is compulsive force. Everything government does is an expression of force: it collects taxes under the threat of imprisonment or death, blocks access to markets through licensing, and changes the rules of market competition through regulation. A well-run government uses force to protect its citizens, from external threats and internal lawbreakers. As the size of government swells, so does the amount of force deployed to enforce its will. This is inevitable, because force is what a government is.

And PKC, I usually don't like to respond to you because I think it's a waste of breath, but I have to agree--your MO seems to be to call an argument stupid because it fails to meet your intellectually superior precise definitions of particular terminology, which is to sidestep the real debate, imho, which is that the U.S. government is slowly bleeding away more and more individual liberties under the guise of making the populace more secure. Until one day we wake up and we have forfeited our greatest gifts to the all powerful government. That's the slope I worry about. I don't think we're anywhere close to that, but I think we are dangerously close to starting to meander down that path.

quote:

�Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.� -George Washington

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov First of all, the author has bit hook line and sinker on the notion that we ever had a completely capitalist system. By his/her basic assumption of capitalism good, anything else bad, he/she has basically written off any form of mixed economy as inherently socialist or, in this case fascist.

Wrong. His basic assumption is that Capitalism is inherantly better than other systems that allow government to exercise an increasing level of control for purposes of their own growth and power... which I believe can be seen throughout history's examples.

quote:

Furthermore, I really wish you'd make up your mind as to whether the US is becoming socialist or fascist. It's quite upsetting how Americans these days don't even comprehend the basics of political theory.

It's not possible for characteristics of both to happen at the same time? I mean, I'm not a political guru like you but even I can recognize that.

quote:

Furthermore, isn't the17sss the same exact person who has blamed the Democrats for not giving support to regulating the economy under Bush? Which way would you like it?

Let's be more specific please. In dealing with the Fannie/Freddie debacle, yes I pointed out the 12 times that Bush tried to enact regulation on that entity as it was obvious things were beginning to spiral out of control, and the 12 times Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Franklin Raines, and other Democrats who (coincidentally) benefited from NOT having such regulations enacted.

I am literally shitting my pants over here.

This is indeed, a scary slippery slope.


Woe is us.

At least we still have our guns to defend ourselves. In fact I think I'm going to go buy a shotgun today.

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