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how important is side chain compression?

in a club track ?

i have alot of ideas..but i dont really have the technical know how...yet..and thats probably the most important thing about making edm.

so right now im just trying to focus my attention on all the technical stuff of making edm. rather then spending most of my time making melodys and riffs.

and i just wanted to know what are some of the most important technical things i should be learning?

stuff like sidechaining etc..

Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by LoveHate ..but i dont really have the technical know how...yet..and thats probably the most important thing about making edm.

And that's probably the number one fallacy in EDM and the reason for so many worthless POS EDM tracks. Virtually every amateur producer on the planet gets caught up in this lie, so they focus most of their energy on the technical side and end up with incredibly boring and forgettable songs that go nowhere - polished turds, if you will.

Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by LoveHate in a club track ? i have alot of ideas..but i dont really have the technical know how...yet..and thats probably the most important thing about making edm. so right now im just trying to focus my attention on all the technical stuff of making edm. rather then spending most of my time making melodys and riffs. and i just wanted to know what are some of the most important technical things i should be learning? stuff like sidechaining etc..

do you have any experience with other instruments? because it does help, it also helps to know how music is composed and written, just a thought.

I would say very important, it really helps for the dynamics of the bass and its also a fairly easy technique to learn.

i play percussion and the piano..

and do know how to write songs..but ive been told that writing and composing a edm song is the same as any other genre..unless im wrong.

and to the other poster.. i think your totally right. its just with me i have been writing what i think is pretty good songs..its just the technical side for me that im struggling with.. i guess you can say i have the opposite problem .


of course you can have a good song, but what mostly makes a club track is good is the equing, mastering, and all the effects etc.

Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by LoveHate so right now im just trying to focus my attention on all the technical stuff of making edm. rather then spending most of my time making melodys and riffs.

i think this is the best thing that beginners can realise: it's what definitely picked my game up a lot, along with getting a good soundcard and speakers

as you say, when it comes to edm especially the technical stuff is pretty much the most important i think.. not to say that melody and progression aren't important too, but so much of the stuff in edm is boring crap anyways, what makes a tune stand out is how it's made..

sad fact...

anyways, the best you can do is just keep trying, keep making full, 'finished' tracks that have every element in them, and you just slowly get better, or that's what i did... you'll find learning techniques can be useful, but when it comes to most production techniques they change a lot based on the tune. for sidechaining for example, of course you can learn the technique, but how it's utilised is going to change for every track, and every synth-patch or instrument you use... you really just have to use it and try and learn how it sounds etc..

anyway, i really recomend jumping into a lot of remix competitions. it's an amazing way to learn the technique of production, while not having to worry too much about the melody and things really helped me a lot working on a track that had the most finicky parts (melody, chord progression etc) already finalised...

i'm sure its important to some producers.

i've yet to use sidechain in any of my productions. the sequencer I use does not pull it off as far as I know.

Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by EgosXII as you say, when it comes to edm especially the technical stuff is pretty much the most important i think.. not to say that melody and progression aren't important too, but so much of the stuff in edm is boring crap anyways, what makes a tune stand out is how it's made..

First comes the great song. Then the production to bring that song across.

Sure, we producers pay close attention to production values. But do you really think the majority of listeners care as much? If a song has a catchy hook/ melody, which they can hum to themselves, which sticks in their head, are they going to care that the reverb has a little too much high end? Not at all.

Re: Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by derail First comes the great song. Then the production to bring that song across. Sure, we producers pay close attention to production values. But do you really think the majority of listeners care as much? If a song has a catchy hook/ melody, which they can hum to themselves, which sticks in their head, are they going to care that the reverb has a little too much high end? Not at all.

That doesn't mean that someone can't tell that something produced is of high quality. I hear it from vinyl heads all the time that digital tracks are missing warmth...

Just because someone doesn't know what a compressor is, doesn't mean they are deaf. People can hear when volume levels fluctuate wildly. Did you have to conceptually learn what a low pass filter is before you could hear it's effect? Hopefully not...

Your ears are no different than the listeners ears. So every sonic improvement you hear they will hear whether they are conscious of it or not. Most of the time they won't know what processes have been used, but it doesn't matter because they will be able to hear its effect.

So what if you have a great song? It won't matter anyway if the production isn't of high quality. A hook is great and all, but what does it matter if you can't hear it?

A well produced track where everything is mixed well will always be better than a garbled mess.

What does it matter if you have the Mona Lisa on your living room mantel if you can't see it?

Where did I say that production quality isn't important?

I said it wasn't as important as having a great song to start with.

But without a great song, there's no point in having great production.

I have a sign in my studio which has been there for years. It says "First beautiful music. Then incredible production". It serves to remind me that the music always comes first.

But I didn't say the production quality isn't important.

A great song with a few production "flaws" can become a massive hit.

A fantastically produced song which doesn't have a strong new hook, or memorable melody, will not last long in the popular consciousness.

Re: Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by derail First comes the great song. Then the production to bring that song across. Sure, we producers pay close attention to production values. But do you really think the majority of listeners care as much? If a song has a catchy hook/ melody, which they can hum to themselves, which sticks in their head, are they going to care that the reverb has a little too much high end? Not at all.

it's a chicken and egg situation, and as i said i'm not saying catchiness and melody etc isn't important, but i personally believe that production is crucial in these days in edm.

its' something that really annoys me.

look at the top 10 of any beatport section... it's always some tune that has little or no distinguishing factor in terms of lyrics or melodies, but has cool sounds or is really well made in terms of commercial accesibility (things that have been done to death etc)...

Re: Re: Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by EgosXII it's a chicken and egg situation, and as i said i'm not saying catchiness and melody etc isn't important, but i personally believe that production is crucial in these days in edm. its' something that really annoys me. look at the top 10 of any beatport section... it's always some tune that has little or no distinguishing factor in terms of lyrics or melodies, but has cool sounds or is really well made in terms of commercial accesibility (things that have been done to death etc)...

I totally see where you're coming from, but don't you think that we who make music should care about the music? Otherwise we become part of the problem, part of the "so much of the stuff in edm is boring crap anyways, what makes a tune stand out is how it's made.."

That sentence made it sound like you're saying to the original poster that "it doesn't matter if your song is boring crap, but make sure you make it sound really great so it stands out". I love fresh hooks and beautiful original melodies, so I don't agree with that sentiment.

Nothing else matters as long as you use sidechain and analog.

No, it really is not all that important.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by derail I totally see where you're coming from, but don't you think that we who make music should care about the music? Otherwise we become part of the problem, part of the "so much of the stuff in edm is boring crap anyways, what makes a tune stand out is how it's made.." That sentence made it sound like you're saying to the original poster that "it doesn't matter if your song is boring crap, but make sure you make it sound really great so it stands out". I love fresh hooks and beautiful original melodies, so I don't agree with that sentiment.

ah ok, i see what you mean, and i completely agree

as i said i hate that it is that way, i just think it's a truth of the scene (at least to a large extent if not completely)..

I guess it's why i was suggesting starting out learning the basics of production so that you're able to get the quality out there though, in that no label is going to look at your beautiful work even if it is the mona lisa of EDM (as beatflux mentioned) unless it's cleaned up and fits their sound..

not that it's a good thing, but it's kinda just the norm i guess... might as well get ready for the slog of getting the technique down..

Well i think you should look at both aspects of making Edm music. You have to know the basic's as well as the more technical side of things like Eq, mixing etc.

I would say dabble in all aspects learn about Eq, sound design and arrangement and how to mix properly, also learn how to use reverbs and compressors properly too. Get to know your Daw and any hardware or Vst's you have inside out so you get the best out of them.

My advice would be buy a couple of books on each subject look at tutorials on the net and ask on forums like this one, there is plenty of stuff out there. you just have to search for it.

But remember its supposed to be fun as well. If your getting frustrated stop what your doing, if its making a tune and learn something else like sound design or how to use a compressor properly read up about it or watch a tutorial. Then your always doing something creative.

Re: Re: Re: how important is side chain compression?

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Originally posted by derail Sure, we producers pay close attention to production values. But do you really think the majority of listeners care as much? If a song has a catchy hook/ melody, which they can hum to themselves, which sticks in their head, are they going to care that the reverb has a little too much high end? Not at all.

Phil Spectre in the 1970's had the mantra - production is everything, and I agree.

ABBA'S songs done by others sound shite. Sure the songs are strong, but that's only half the story - it's ptoduction that catches people's attention.

Reading Rick Snomans dance music manual, he lists dozens of minor hits that were turned into monsters by EDM producers - the differnce is ALL PRODUCTION values.

So many aspiring producers can write a nice melody, but honestly, that's failry easy if you practice long enough.

I've noticed people want to dance when they feel,a certain vibe that has little to do with melody - tons of big dance hits have little melody.

Compression is vital to give a track energy, but it needs a lot of care. For example the release tail of the compressor must be set to an exact legnth to ensure the pump is perfectly in time with the track.

If you go on some guitar forums, lots of people are banging out nice melodies, but most will get nowhere, unless they can encapsulate those melodies in the wrapper people want.

In R&B and hip hop, production is 99% of sucess.

AS FOR WHAT TIPS YOU NEED TO MASTER - well there are thousands of em. In a setance you need one vital traite - the ability and motivation to tweak for thousands of hours and dedicate yourself to it - top producers are obessive types.
Thriller took hundreds of man hours to create - for example the single door squeak took 1 whole day to get right - they hired several doors and tried loads of mikes.

This is the take home message for me - you will not make a big sucess nowadays unless you are obsessive about detail - question every sound and then question it again.

Fun eh!

If it is used subtly it is an intresting affect.
Listen to this track: pst the 1.00 minute mark is clever use of sidechaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHA6qjvuoqY

Now songs ala benny benassi circa 2003 that make side chaining so extreme it becomes the main feature of the track should be avoided at all costs: It sounds tired and played out imo
unless... you like corny music

theres plenty of other uses of sidechaining other than the typical kik chained to the rest of the track to make it pump. try sidechaining your snare into the reverb for a pad with heavy compression. so in a breakdown when the snare stops playing the pad opens up with a massive reverb as the compression has stopped....use your imagination!

i think production is more important than melodies in dance... because if your track doesn't sound good on a dancefloor and dont have the energy that good production will give, then people aint gonna dance. which is afterall the point of this stuff! how many tracks out there have had the simplest of melodies and hooks and been so popular?? simplicity is the key. Not that i dont have respect for really complex riff/chord progressions etc, i just wish i could do some of that stuff!

someone made a good point about hiphop productions - the quality level is really high compared to a lot genres, because in essence its simple - vox drums and bass and some simple melodies/stabs. put that in the hands of a great producer and it will sell millions, the wrong hands and it wont get out the studio doors...

**prepares to be slated...

you can make a pro track without sidechain.
but sidechain is quite simple, so why not learn it?
anyway, first learn to EQ, it's much more important.

quote:

Originally posted by studiobob how many tracks out there have had the simplest of melodies and hooks and been so popular?? simplicity is the key. Not that i dont have respect for really complex riff/chord progressions etc, i just wish i could do some of that stuff!

Yes, simplicity is the key. I much prefer simplicity over complexity.

But ORIGINAL simplicity is where it's at, not generic simplicity. I use the example often, but '9pm (Til I come)' is very basic, very simple, and utterly divine and original.

Same as an album such as Nirvana's 'Nevermind' - utterly simple, and utterly brilliant.

The thing is, it isn't easy to come up with one of these divine simple songs. They sound simple, but it's highly likely most of us won't create a musical statement which compares, even if we're miles ahead in our technical knowledge. '9pm (Til I come)' doesn't have the greatest sounding mix, and Kurt Cobain wasn't the world's greatest guitarist or singer.

I still generally prefer to listen to the examples above than songs which are technically superior. Hooks stick in my head and make me come back for more; technical perfection seems to abound widely, but doesn't impress me - there are so many people able to create amazing sounding trance mixes these days.

It's pretty much the same story with guitarists these days - it seems there are thousands of people who can play at ridiculously fast speeds, but many of them having nothing to say. They spent most of their time working on their playing prowess and very little on working out what they actually want to say - whether their technique actually serves a purpose. And a guitarist who doesn't play as fast, but who has discovered their original voice, can get up and blow these thousands of guys away with some beautiful playing which actually means something.

People who think technical skill is more important than musical content should just stop producing. Right now.

No, I am not kidding. Delete your DAW and all your softsynths, and sell any hardware you have to someone who is a musician, not a hack who thinks "great sound" turns boring melodies and boring rhythms into gold.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles People who think technical skill is more important than musical content should just stop producing. Right now. No, I am not kidding. Delete your DAW and all your softsynths, and sell any hardware you have to someone who is a musician, not a hack who thinks "great sound" turns boring melodies and boring rhythms into gold.

So very true.

I've always said I'd rather listen to a brilliant composition with poor production than a poor composition with brilliant production. Funnily enough majority of EDM seems to fall into the latter category...

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery So very true. I've always said I'd rather listen to a brilliant composition with poor production than a poor composition with brilliant production. Funnily enough majority of EDM seems to fall into the latter category...

Yes great chord progressions and melodies can be very satisfying, but the overall waveform that hits my ear is what it's about.

To take a simple track, which I don't love, but is very satisfying to be on the end of - Eric Pryd's 'call on me'. Again not my sort of thing, but I can see why it sold so well.

I've met plenty of musicians that can write good complex melodies but the end result is so boring. They forget the all important production values.

Phil Spectre said in a fairly recent TV documentary that p[roduction was everything, but most musiscians do not understand this.

Take Jean Michelle Jarres brilliant stuff - Oxygene and Equinox. Great melodies yet when many people reproduced these in the 1980's under the 'synth classic tracks' package, those same brilliant tunes were horriC

its pretty important imo.
atleast if u want to be on the same level of ear-destruction than other releases are today.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles sell any hardware you have to someone who is a musician, not a hack who thinks "great sound" turns boring melodies and boring rhythms into gold.

I don't think anyone would say 'boring melodies' can be 'produced' into something decent.

No, it's about making the best melody / riff one can and then apply exceptional production values.

Billy Jean done by a rock singer with ordinary sounding guitars and drums would simply not have been the monster that Jacko came up with.

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