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Kicks drowning out the actual music at festivals?!?! Who's still mixing sensibly?

Has anyone else noticed kick drum levels are becoming so loud they're now drowning out the rest of the music on the dancefloor!?! It's insane...

This is obviously a bigger problem at indoor events...

1. Are people hearing this same problem?

2. Who do you all think is mixing their kicks too loud, and who's mixing them at the right level?

question should really be, which DJ's don't know how to work the EQ knobs on the PIO mixer.

DJ and PA should cater and accomodate for the music, not the other way around......

Lately I've made friends with one of the locals DJ's and we've been hanging out alot with the intention of getting around to making some music. As a result I've been spending alot of time clubbing with him, and have even got in a few hours dj'ing as well.

Whats been blowing my mind is just how badly some of the kids these days dj. Seems that with all the electronics and software out there, people are lacking the basic skills that made dj'ing so awesome back when I used to do it(late 90's).

These days you can mix anything together with minimal effort. It will still suck, but wont suck as badly as it would if it didnt have beatlocks and pitch bending.

I miss the old days
(and the old music)

This thread is posted here twice, but this is what I said in the other one:

I think part of the cause of this is the overly long tails people keep on their kicks. It's become a strange mission to get as much bass out of the kick as possible.

It's ridiculous. You can't even dance to it when the kick is so long because it kills the groove. It just sounds like BOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOM. There could be toms and hats but you sure as hell can't hear them.

It seems like all they're trying to do is get the teenieboppers with skull candy earbuds to talk about how SIKK THE BASS IS.

quote:

Originally posted by Seandroid the teenieboppers with skull candy earbuds to talk about how SIKK THE BASS IS.

lol I heard 2 kids the otherday say the very same thing.

On topic, I think it depends on the genre of music, with hardcore the kicks maybe distorted to hell but the actual kick is very short.

I consider large outdoor events to be festivals, i'm just saying this to check if i'm on the same page as the OP.

Assuming we are talking about outdoor events it makes kind of sense. High frequency content decays a lot faster over distance than low frequency content. And sound has little surface to reflect on in the open air.

If that's not what was meant then i'd say it's most likely mixdown issues or dj's messing with the eq's. I like having a fairly loud kick myself. Most of my tracks have it.

Re: Kicks drowning out the actual music at festivals?!?! Who's still mixing sensibly?

quote:

Originally posted by Mimieux Has anyone else noticed kick drum levels are becoming so loud they're now drowning out the rest of the music on the dancefloor!?! It's insane... This is obviously a bigger problem at indoor events... 1. Are people hearing this same problem? 2. Who do you all think is mixing their kicks too loud, and who's mixing them at the right level?

u by any chance talking about ASOT 500 in sydney?
because thats exactly what happened haha

So does this have anything to do with how dj's mix or artists make the tracks?.. or is this just down to how the sound system is set up and the environment its in? I can't really relate to the problem, I like pounding kicks but have never noticed it to be so overpowering that it drowns out the rest of the track in any club or event I've been to.

Festivals and clubs =/= studios

quote:

Originally posted by Seandroid I think part of the cause of this is the overly long tails people keep on their kicks. It's become a strange mission to get as much bass out of the kick as possible. It's ridiculous. You can't even dance to it when the kick is so long because it kills the groove. It just sounds like BOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOOMBOOOOOOOOM. There could be toms and hats but you sure as hell can't hear them.

Ya.

quote:

Originally posted by Seandroid It's become a strange mission to get as much bass out of the kick as possible.

"Strange mission" sums up this issue nicely. I too have noticed kicks getting ridiculous. It reminds me of the loudness war but now sights have been set on who can make the loudest and bassiest death kick to triumph over all others.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus "Strange mission" sums up this issue nicely. I too have noticed kicks getting ridiculous. It reminds me of the loudness war but now sights have been set on who can make the loudest and bassiest death kick to triumph over all others.

And it's not even old skool hardstyle doing this. xD

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie question should really be, which DJ's don't know how to work the EQ knobs on the PIO mixer. DJ and PA should cater and accomodate for the music, not the other way around......

No it shouldn't be. I would of asked that question if it were relevant. This is a a problem at mixdown.

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. Festivals and clubs =/= studios

Of course , but artists should be producing music that sounds great at festivals and clubs, as well as everyday sound systems. This wasn't a problem when people were producing 'balanced' dance tracks with sensible kick levels...

but now it's just ridiculous

Re: Re: Kicks drowning out the actual music at festivals?!?! Who's still mixing sensibly?

quote:

Originally posted by johncannons1 u by any chance talking about ASOT 500 in sydney? because thats exactly what happened haha

Absolutely PERFECT example .

You had to sit in the tiered seating at the back to enjoy any kind of music. I was just thinking to myself, what are those dickheads down in the mosh thinking? Going off like this is the biggest party on Earth, but I've been down the front and I a) can't hear music and b) what I can hear insanely hurts my ears. But even at the back you could tell the low end was still way too powerful, not muddy or bassey because of the stadiums acoustic, just way too powerful (who woulda thought lol).

Godskitchen was another example, EXCEPT!!! Marcel Woods tracks really sounded so much better in there than O'Callaghan's, Wippenberg's or Andy Moor's original stuff. So after that I threw those few productions into Logic and snooped around with some analysers and sure enough the kick was better balanced with the rest of the track. The kick level was lower (hitting just over -10db instead of -5 to -0!!!), the mids and highs were a nice and relatively flat mastering 'curve' so you could pick out all the elements. Having this lower kick level and flatter mid-section really made all the difference and I enjoyed most of his set compared with the others ... which is a shame, I was really eager to listen to/enjoy O'Callaghan's stuff

Re: Re: Re: Kicks drowning out the actual music at festivals?!?! Who's still mixing sensibly?

quote:

Originally posted by Mimieux EXCEPT!!! Marcel Woods tracks really sounded so much better

This is why it slightly bugs me when showing demos and people say make the kick the loudest thing in the track, but I find people like Marcel and indeed Michael Woods scoop a ton of shit out of thier kicks to let the tracks breathe.

Also we always say 'layer more' but the danger there is a nasty mush on the floor.

I find this discussion so funny;

About 18 months ago, there were a ton of discussions on here with people (rightly) aksing (myself included) where the fuck the kick had gone in EDM - all these tracks where the kick was nothing more than a subtle click or muffled low level thud.

To me it just proves that things go in cycles and have a way of regulating themselves.

I will say the comment about DJ's and PIO mixers is spot on - anyone with a Pioneer mixer, just try this: get a track with a prominant kick going. Now redline that track. Not badly but enough so you're slightly in the red and listen what happens

Pio mixers have a nasty characrter fault of going to complete shit, especially with bass frequencies when redlined. So combine this factor, with heavily prominant kick in a production, then amplify that on a 100k Watt system and......well, you get the point.

The last club night I went to all I could hear was the kick and a bit of bass. There may have been melodies up there somewhere, but I couldn't hear them.

The average kick level for trance currently is set higher than it was a few years ago. It does mean there is less room in the mix for melodies - much easier to simply have a sidechained pad/synth/arpeggio thing pumping on the offbeat than trying to fit an actual melody with some notes falling on "on beats".

I find Temple One's productions very clear and detailed, but the kicks do overpower the mix in the songs I've heard. If they turned it down just a bit their mixes would be better. Sean Tyas' kicks used to be slightly too loud/cutting, but the last few songs of his I've heard he's pulled it back a bit and it sounds so much better.

It takes some experience to get a decently balanced mix. It takes a whole bunch more to get an excellently balanced mix.

I hope there's no further trend towards overly loud, unbalanced kicks. Something that does work against it is the fact that the louder people make their kicks, the quieter they make their song overall. It depends whether they want to win the loudness war or the kick war. Hmm...maybe I'll start a hihat war and start mixing my hats at -3dBs....ain't nobody gonna have louder hats than me....

quote:

Originally posted by derail Hmm...maybe I'll start a hihat war and start mixing my hats at -3dBs....ain't nobody gonna have louder hats than me....

Oh god.. Except I could see that happening if hi hats were cool.

Whatever the kids want.

top contribution derail, thank you

Question:

Anyone in this thread went to electric zoo last year? Did you see Armin on the mainstage? The sound was literally so bad where I was standing, that I actually couldn't hear the kick, but only the BASS, let alone melodies or hats. I mean, ALLLLLL I heard were the very low notes of the bassline and melody, it was atrocious.

I cannot BELIEVE that i forgot Digweed was playing at another tent at the same time that armin was on, I definitely woulda gone over. I've never seen him live before.

todays music has very much bass. it works in clubs, but noe at home. i dont know what else to say....

its all about da bass

In terms of production techniques, I don't think this is an issue in all genres. Most of the techno and house nights I've been to in the last couple of years haven't had this issue. But the last trance night I went to was about 3 years ago and that was about 2 years after the last trance night I attended before that. I remember noticing straight away how the kicks had become so dominant in the time that had passed. Maybe it has become even worse now? I don't know.

I would say though that shitty club sound systems played at too high a volume are probably the biggest cause.

quote:

Originally posted by clay todays music has very much bass. it works in clubs, but noe at home. i dont know what else to say....

Another brilliant contribution from you, palm

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