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Keys and Scales

Could anyone tell me if I'm actually thinking correctly by saying that if two tunes are played in the same key that it would sound harmonies.

But if a key is based on a major or minor scale around which a piece of music revolves. Then being say a C Major scale there is still 7 notes in which the key can be based on.

Couldn't this still effect the mix if say tune A was on C major Note D and tune B on C major Note B.

what do you mean by effect the mix ?

Having two different bass notes even in the same key will always sound weird and it has to do with our perception of tones which can be seen in how the overtone series and say traditional orchestration coincide which will also translate to electronic music perhaps even more so given the importance given to bass tones. Tones in that area close together regardless if it is a consonant interval will sound bad

So right off the bat, same key and different chords will sound funny for that reason. As far melodies or pitched material sounding dissonant, again yes the key is irrelevant. Having a major/minor 2 nd overlap without the proper resolution will sound odd.

I've never really been a proponent of harmonic mixing in so far as the way people seem to use it. Harmonic mixing should not be applied to actual mixing songs but rather going from one key to another as you would going from track A to B. This is where the change in key can really make a difference. It should be used as a transition tool, not a mixing tool to make 2 tracks sound neat together.

PLaying everything in the same key essentially makes your set dull. It diminishes the ability of the audience to know when a new track has started which is usually a sense of anticipation which is good. Not that using two tracks in the same key cannot be effective for a wanted effect like mixing 2 tracks very quickly where you don't want them to notice a change in key.

But in general, people that claim to do harmonic mixing lack a insight into what makes music exciting. They feel like they are providing a superior mix when in fact, they are probably making a potential set worse.

The problem is that djs want to start manipulating key regions without having the knowledge to do so. The result is almost always the same as say a guy djing for 2 months given a mixer with big buttons that add FX. not pretty.

Harmonic mixing is not about playing a set in one key, any more than beatmatching is about playing a whole set at one tempo.

that is how most people tend to view it. Not to play everything in the same key but to use it as a tool to mix songs so they sound good together rather than what it is most useful for and that is the psychological impact of going from one key to another.

Again, you may as well replace "key" with "tempo", for all the sense your argument makes.

Thanks Looney,

Your opinion best explains what I tried to understand, I guess I was over analyzing music theory abit to much and not seeing it from a practical and DJing point of view.

Thanks for correcting me

looney is right

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Again, you may as well replace "key" with "tempo", for all the sense your argument makes.

not really. Not sure if this is just a matter of deficit in music theory but that is a poor analogy. Pitch can be slowly increased or decreased over a few tracks without anyone noticing yet having an effect. Almost everyone will notice a few cents difference in pitch.

So if i can ask you this, I start mixing in the new tune and you can hear the new tune coming in and the transition is smooth(harmonies).

And as I drop the tune on the new phrase, the tone,Note, chord or key? don't know really how to explain it theoretically creates like a totally expectant change which cause like an effect going from high set of notes to like a low hard kick. causing the crowd to go wild.

What would you call this effect and theoretically what has happened?

Hope I'm explaining myself clearly?

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney not really. Not sure if this is just a matter of deficit in music theory but that is a poor analogy. Pitch can be slowly increased or decreased over a few tracks without anyone noticing yet having an effect. Almost everyone will notice a few cents difference in pitch.

What, but you can't change key over the course of several tracks? Not only can you move up or down the circle of fifths with a conventional transition, modern technology also allows you to change the key of a record while locking tempo.

Your argument is fucking stupid. A big part of DJing is melding tracks seamlessly to create a larger musical journey that locks people in the groove for hours. You can tell when a transition is happening because new melodies and sounds will enter the mix. You're advocating playing out of key so people hear the transition and have a sense of anticipation? Why not just trainwreck so they know it's coming? Both snap you out of your groove and sound fucking horrible.

Jumping semi-tones, or going from minor to major, can be effective, just like big jumps in tempo. Even dissonance has its uses - I've deliberately mixed out of key for effect before. But these moments should be used very sparingly or they will quickly become tiresome and gimmicky. The more I see you post, the more I become convinced you deliberately spout faux-controversial stupidity just to get people to pay attention to your posts.

uh oh, oh shit

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J What, but you can't change key over the course of several tracks? Not only can you move up or down the circle of fifths with a conventional transition, modern technology also allows you to change the key of a record while locking tempo. Your argument is fucking stupid. A big part of DJing is melding tracks seamlessly to create a larger musical journey that locks people in the groove for hours. You can tell when a transition is happening because new melodies and sounds will enter the mix. You're advocating playing out of key so people hear the transition and have a sense of anticipation? Why not just trainwreck so they know it's coming? Both snap you out of your groove and sound fucking horrible. Jumping semi-tones, or going from minor to major, can be effective, just like big jumps in tempo. Even dissonance has its uses - I've deliberately mixed out of key for effect before. But these moments should be used very sparingly or they will quickly become tiresome and gimmicky. The more I see you post, the more I become convinced you deliberately spout faux-controversial stupidity just to get people to pay attention to your posts.

your argument was that bpm and key are similar. They aren't. You can change bpm discretely , you can't jump even a quarter tone without most people noticing. Your analogy was bad. That is all. I"m not really sure why you are explaining the concept of going to different key regions. That is how I prescribed one should use harmonic mixing in the first place, secondly, having a dj trying to explain theory to me is somewhat insulting. Trust me, there is nothing you could say regarding music that I either don't already know or could tell you why you are wrong.

You do know what happens to the key of a record when it gets pitched up or down, right?

Well what I know is when you decrease or increase more than 3% you start moving into another key region

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You do know what happens to the key of a record when it gets pitched up or down, right?

you aren't really following.

you easily change bpm say by 3-4 thru out a track and nobody will notice. You will not be able to even go up a semi tone without people noticing a huge change in bpm.

To change 1 semitone at say 128 bpm , you would need to increment or decrease your bpm by about 7 ish doing the math in my head. That is the smallest change using western conventions.

As I've already mentioned, you can pitch shift records quite easily with technology these days. Although I'm not sure what your point has to do with harmonic mixing, because harmonic mixing is about moving through the keys in a way that is harmonic and pleasing to the ear. I think you're creating a total strawman conception of what people think harmonic mixing is about.

jesus


you first made the statement that you can change bpm thruout a set equating it to changing harmony. I agreed but I said that most people tend to do this very slowly so that nobody notices where as changing harmony is noticeable thus not like changing bpm at all thus making your analogy quite poor.

And pitch shift algorithms sound like shit. You can't change a key to a track without completely degrading it. If you don't agree, your hearing is shot.

Actually, I'd say the vast majority of listeners wouldn't have a clue when you'd changed key as long as you only moved up or down on the circle of fifths. Most people don't have relative pitch, they don't have a clue what key a track is in. As long as it sounds harmonically smooth, people don't know. The change of key might have a subconscious effect on the mood of the set, but they're no more likely to spot it than they would a slight increase of BPM over the course of a couple of tracks. I mix harmonically myself, and I have never, ever had a moment on a dancefloor or listening to a set at home where I've thought "Oh, the key has changed" unless it's a key clash.

the point is they notice a change. slightly increasing or decreasing bpm, they won't notice. So if you are planning to speed things up because the headliner plays a little faster, most djs will start increasing the bpm over a few tracks and it is unnoticeable. You can't do that with the key of a track. Which is what gives key changes their power which has been my position on harmonic mixing which i first stated. The power is not harmonic mixing vertically but rather horizontally ie key changes thru time like you would in say a sonata or a symphony.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney the point is they notice a change. slightly increasing or decreasing bpm, they won't notice. So if you are planning to speed things up because the headliner plays a little faster, most djs will start increasing the bpm over a few tracks and it is unnoticeable. You can't do that with the key of a track. Which is what gives key changes their power which has been my position on harmonic mixing which i first stated. The power is not harmonic mixing vertically but rather horizontally ie key changes thru time like you would in say a sonata or a symphony.

sig worthy

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney the point is they notice a change. slightly increasing or decreasing bpm, they won't notice.

Way to completely fucking ignore what I just said. Subconsciously they might notice a change of key, but they're also going to subconsciously notice a change of BPM, especially as it's going to be dictating the speed at which they're dancing.

There are two crucial areas of stupidity in your argument:

1. This bizarre assumption that people think harmonic mixing means just playing in one key.
2. This idea that playing in key makes transitions boring.

that is what you don't seem to grasp.

People will notice a semitone change. It isn't sub conscious. The jnd for under 500 hz is what about 3 hz ? Listen , you tried to equate bpm to the key of a track. It was a poor analogy. You were wrong, I aint mad at cha. So fuckin move on already.

Oh okay, I must be the only person in the world who doesn't notice.

anyone that is tone deaf , yup. Most people aren't. That jnd is a general %.

Yeah, clearly I must be tone deaf. Amazingly I've gone 23 years of my life without anyone noticing, only to be finally enlightened by some berk on the Internet.

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