TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Chill Out Room
-- Russia vs. Georgia
Pages (17): « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 »
I love how we have so many experts on politics in the North Caucasus all of a sudden.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I love how we have so many experts on politics in the North Caucasus all of a sudden. |
| quote: | ||
Originally posted by know you
|
EU and US totally screwed Georgia not just IMO, in the eyes of the entire world.
Fact:
Europe doesn't have the balls to step up for a country like Georgia because... roll drum please... it has very little in natural reserves to offer. Russia is still primo supplier. Nice to see Putin's long term agenda played out so well. Smart. Very smart. Long before the Georgian conflict there was this little incident with this little-known company called Yukos and Mikhail Khodarkovski. Rings any bells? No? What about Gazprom? That's right - Russia's energy supplier and government-owned monopoly.
When Putin came to power, his main priority was to regain control of not just the country but its natural reserves. Everything would have been dandy candy if Khodarkovski did not try to get himself involved in politics. Even worse for him, he was in talks to sell a portion of his company to Exxon or other US Oil companies. Baaaaaaaaaaad idea. Allow US to control lifeline of mother Russia? Not in 1,000,000 years.
Putin got his people involved, they cleverly dug up bunch of charges against Khodarkovski, arrested him, essentially denied due process every step of the way, took his company under the guise of "they stole it" and Putin got the energy company he wanted, while giving Khodarkovski a swift kick in the arse on his way to jail. Probably came to see him in jail personally to ask "how you like them politics, buddy?".
Meanwhile, Putin's merkin licker, arse wiper and p3n0r polisher Abramovich sold his oil/gas companies to mother russia to the tune of a quite modest $15Bln USD. I bet a substantial portion of it went straight into Puta's pocket. Abramovich is now free to own Chelsea, record-setting yachts, and laugh all the way to the bank while he wipes his arse with the biggest bills of every major currency.
Russia then took control of the energy sector, setting the stage to not only ensure it's national wealth but also to control the region by being the lifeline for the ENTIRE EUROPE'S energy needs. Sure there are other energy suppliers out there but they bleak in comparisson to Russia.
Now that Europe's collective ballsack was in Russia's palm, it was free to pretty much dictate it's policy through the threat of energy price hikes or complete shut-off. Kinda hard to kick Russia in the arse when it holds your heat and fuel hostage.
Game. Set. Match.
Now Europe is pretty much powerless to do anything but issue strong statements of condemnation and pass meaningless resolutions that are completely toothless. Russia knows this. Europe knows this. Entire world knows this. Georgia didn't?????? What, they really thought they could take on Russia and Europe would back them up? LOOOOL
I read in some Reuters article yesterday - some anonymous EU official said something along the lines of "Thank god we didn't let Georgia into NATO, or they'd invoke Article 5 and we'd be involved in this mess now". Furthermore, NATO in Ukraine and Georgia is now not even an option. Russia won't accept it, it will only pi$$ it off and lord knows Europe would not want to pi$$ off the Russian bear.
So, the new world order is this: Russia is back to the superpower status with newly found priviledges. North Ukraine decides to split off, Russia will be there. Any other former republics decide to seek independence under Russia's protection will be FREE to do so.
Meanwhile, what did US do? Nothing. It stood by, watching. Georgia got messed up and most likely will not be so naive about what it REALLY means to US... which is slightly less than nothing.
Interesting article about the fall out for the US of this conflict:
| quote: |
| The United States Shares the Blame for the Russia-Georgia Crisis American blunders fostered the situation, and now the United States will pay a high global price By Paul J. Saunders Posted August 12, 2008 War became unavoidable in the Caucasus when Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili sent the country's military to "liberate" the autonomous region of South Ossetia from its Moscow-backed local authorities. While Georgia and Russia bear principal responsibility for a conflict that both have been courting for years, the United States also shares the blame. And now America's interests will suffer, not only in Georgia and the former Soviet Union but around the world. America contributed to the war in Georgia in two important ways. First, together with its European allies, Washington established two precedents: use of force without approval of the United Nations Security Council and the division of a sovereign nation without U.N. consent. Both precedents emerged out of Kosovo's quest for independence from Serbia, which led in 1999 to U.S.-directed NATO airstrikes against Serbia to drive Serbian military and police forces out of its Kosovo province. The Clinton administration and NATO conducted the strikes�both in Kosovo and in Serbia proper, where the attacks targeted not only security units but also civilian infrastructure, like power stations�over Russia's strong opposition in the Security Council. Russia today is repeating NATO's 1999 justification of its action in arguing that Georgia conducted ethnic cleansing and genocide in South Ossetia and that Moscow was obliged to respond because of its role as a peacekeeper. More recently, in 2007 and 2008, the United States and some European governments endorsed Kosovo's desire for independence, despite the fact that it remained a part of Serbia, and recognized it earlier this year. Currently, about one quarter of U.N. members and about three quarters of European Union members recognize Kosovo. The Kremlin argued at the time that the move would create a precedent for other separatist regions, including South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia. Bush administration officials in turn stated that Kosovo was a unique case, apparently believing that they could define what Kosovo's independence meant to others. Second, Bush administration officials, especially the vice president's office and some (but definitely not all) in the State Department, recklessly encouraged Saakashvili and other senior Georgian officials to believe that Tbilisi had a blank check from Washington. They do not appear to have done this deliberately; in fact, American officials have repeatedly told the Georgian government that the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia should be resolved peacefully. But the United States regularly undermined this important message by routinely siding with Georgia in its frequent spats with Moscow, providing hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid, and essentially ignoring Saakashvili's growing authoritarianism. More important, the United States provided extensive military aid and training for Georgian troops. Some have argued that this help increased Georgian leaders' confidence that military action in South Ossetia could succeed. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice added fuel to this fire on July 10 when appearing beside Saakashvili in Tbilisi, she said, "Mr. President, we always fight for our friends." Although it is clear from the State Department transcript that Secretary Rice was referring to U.S. willingness to fight European opposition to begin the process of bringing Georgia into NATO by offering a membership action plan at a scheduled December summit, most in the region viewed it as a thinly veiled expression of support for the Georgian regime at a time when tensions were already growing over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. As in the case of U.S. involvement in Kosovo, American officials seemed to miss the difference between what they think they are saying and what others think they are hearing. What are the consequences? The war in Georgia is a major policy failure and, unfortunately, could ultimately have high costs for America. Among some possible results: A new reality on the ground, with Russia occupying and controlling both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. A possible collapse of Saakashvili's government, which, combined with an emerging Georgian sense that the country was abandoned by America, could result in a less friendly regime in Tbilisi. An end to Georgia's chances of entering NATO�if Georgians continue to want it�because of considerably greater European resistance prompted by reluctance to confront Moscow. Disillusionment with the United States in much of the rest of the former Soviet Union, where Washington will be seen as failing to protect Georgia after Tbilisi provided 2,000 troops in Iraq. This could encourage some governments to pursue closer ties with Russia. Significant weakening of the United Nations Security Council due to lingering deep divisions over the conflict, with Washington unable to use the body to manage Iran, North Korea, or other important global challenges. Strengthening of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the country's security services at the expense of new President Dmitry Medvedev and the relative liberals among his key supporters. Serious damage to the U.S.-Russian relationship, threatening cooperation on arms control, securing Russian nuclear materials, Iran, North Korea, terrorism, energy, and a host of other issues. Moscow's nonreaction to White House statements that the conflict could damage bilateral relations reflects the degree to which Russian officials see little benefit to working with Washington and have moved beyond their previous focus on U.S.-Russian ties. A suggestion to some countries, such as Iran, Syria, Venezuela, and Cuba, that with Russian support they can resist American pressure. Hamas and Hezbollah could be similarly emboldened. Most problematic, if America's ties to China sour, Beijing's tactical cooperation with Moscow could grow. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and even Georgia itself may seem like small and distant lands to most Americans, but the war there�and the mistakes that led to it�may affect them directly in unexpected and powerful ways. Hopefully U.S. officials, as well as former officials and pundits in both parties who supported them in enabling Saakashvili's dangerous behavior, will learn a valuable lesson about unintended consequences. The United States remains the world's only superpower, but it cannot afford too many more blunders on this scale. Paul J. Saunders is executive director of The Nixon Center and associate publisher of The National Interest. He was a State Department political appointee from 2003 to 2005. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by timmyboy first of all "as seen on georgian tv", what do you expect other than propaganda? i am not defending the russians, who i think took it a bit too far but, wtf were the georgian government thinking? letting go of the fact that georgia agreed to a ceasefire hours before attacking and destroying an entire city (which by the way is genocide). but ignoring that... they shot down two russian planes, unprovoked i might add. that is an act of aggression. what boggles my mind is what the hell did they expect to happen? nato to come to their help? georgian president should have really used his head before ordering something like this suicide mission |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing EU and US totally screwed Georgia not just IMO, in the eyes of the entire world. Fact: Europe doesn't have the balls to step up for a country like Georgia because... roll drum please... it has very little in natural reserves to offer. Russia is still primo supplier. Nice to see Putin's long term agenda played out so well. Smart. Very smart. Long before the Georgian conflict there was this little incident with this little-known company called Yukos and Mikhail Khodarkovski. Rings any bells? No? What about Gazprom? That's right - Russia's energy supplier and government-owned monopoly. When Putin came to power, his main priority was to regain control of not just the country but its natural reserves. Everything would have been dandy candy if Khodarkovski did not try to get himself involved in politics. Even worse for him, he was in talks to sell a portion of his company to Exxon or other US Oil companies. Baaaaaaaaaaad idea. Allow US to control lifeline of mother Russia? Not in 1,000,000 years. Putin got his people involved, they cleverly dug up bunch of charges against Khodarkovski, arrested him, essentially denied due process every step of the way, took his company under the guise of "they stole it" and Putin got the energy company he wanted, while giving Khodarkovski a swift kick in the arse on his way to jail. Probably came to see him in jail personally to ask "how you like them politics, buddy?". Meanwhile, Putin's merkin licker, arse wiper and p3n0r polisher Abramovich sold his oil/gas companies to mother russia to the tune of a quite modest $15Bln USD. I bet a substantial portion of it went straight into Puta's pocket. Abramovich is now free to own Chelsea, record-setting yachts, and laugh all the way to the bank while he wipes his arse with the biggest bills of every major currency. Russia then took control of the energy sector, setting the stage to not only ensure it's national wealth but also to control the region by being the lifeline for the ENTIRE EUROPE'S energy needs. Sure there are other energy suppliers out there but they bleak in comparisson to Russia. Now that Europe's collective ballsack was in Russia's palm, it was free to pretty much dictate it's policy through the threat of energy price hikes or complete shut-off. Kinda hard to kick Russia in the arse when it holds your heat and fuel hostage. Game. Set. Match. Now Europe is pretty much powerless to do anything but issue strong statements of condemnation and pass meaningless resolutions that are completely toothless. Russia knows this. Europe knows this. Entire world knows this. Georgia didn't?????? What, they really thought they could take on Russia and Europe would back them up? LOOOOL I read in some Reuters article yesterday - some anonymous EU official said something along the lines of "Thank god we didn't let Georgia into NATO, or they'd invoke Article 5 and we'd be involved in this mess now". Furthermore, NATO in Ukraine and Georgia is now not even an option. Russia won't accept it, it will only pi$$ it off and lord knows Europe would not want to pi$$ off the Russian bear. So, the new world order is this: Russia is back to the superpower status with newly found priviledges. North Ukraine decides to split off, Russia will be there. Any other former republics decide to seek independence under Russia's protection will be FREE to do so. Meanwhile, what did US do? Nothing. It stood by, watching. Georgia got messed up and most likely will not be so naive about what it REALLY means to US... which is slightly less than nothing. Interesting article about the fall out for the US of this conflict: source: http://www.usnews.com/articles/news...risis_print.htm |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I'd LOVE to hear what you would have expected from NATO/US/Europe beyond stern language. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing UN/NATO Peacekeeping contigent to separate the two would be nice... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by gehzumteufel That is like asking China to give up their army. You are fucking nuts if you expect that to happen. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by kadomony like that matters |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing huh? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by kadomony like that matters |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing please look past the last few days of conflict. Russia has been poking and prodding Georgia for quite some time now. Saakashvili was (still is) a thorn in their side and they wanted to get rid of him, while establishing a pro-Russian government. Ossetia was just an excuse and nothing more than a prop, while the rest of the world was not paying attention to the man behind the (iron) curtain. Putin is a vindictive prick - no one calls him "liliputin" in public media and gets away with it... especially while welcoming NATO to camp out in his back yard. It's got as much to do with Ossetia's independence as it has to do with the cruddy pieces of crap on Ossetian's goat arse. Grow up. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by bananas +1 |
Saakashvili made a huge gamble and lost. Not just a gamble, a blunder. First he chose to conquer Tskhinvali during the Olympics. Second, he grossly misunderestimated the Russian response. Third he chose to engage the Russian army! Nazi Germany nor the Great Napolean could defeat Russia!
Probably the most intelligent thing Georgia's military did was run for the hills. If Georgia even wants a fighting chance against Russia, they need to specialize in asymmetrical warfare, because Georgia will never ever win a conventional war against Russia.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton misunderestimated |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN is that even a word? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well youre just as wrong as he is |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing Staying up night and day waiting for reaction to your comment. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton Nazi Germany nor the Great Napolean could defeat Russia! |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton grossly misunderestimated |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by denys envy some credit should be given to the cold Russian winters... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by aNYthing please look past the last few days of conflict. Russia has been poking and prodding Georgia for quite some time now. Saakashvili was (still is) a thorn in their side and they wanted to get rid of him, while establishing a pro-Russian government. Ossetia was just an excuse and nothing more than a prop, while the rest of the world was not paying attention to the man behind the (iron) curtain. Putin is a vindictive prick - no one calls him "liliputin" in public media and gets away with it... especially while welcoming NATO to camp out in his back yard. It's got as much to do with Ossetia's independence as it has to do with the cruddy pieces of crap on Ossetian's goat arse. Grow up. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton Nazi Germany nor the Great Napolean could defeat Russia! |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by jonSun If Hitler decided to not take on the whole world & only russia, it would have been a quick slaughter. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
