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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The greatest flaw in humans is that we do feel for others that we really have no emotional attachment to other then they are also human. Its our inability to control these emotions that will be the eventual downfall of humans and the eventual destruction of an Earth that can support human life.

i totally disagree with you..

your theory would dictate that we should all just live in a bubble and only care about the people in our small circle...

i usually have no issue with your comments but i truly believe that what you are saying is the exact reason we are in the mess that we are in..people should care...they should give a shit...any type of movement that has been born in our history has been derived from a culture of caring..

i don't know how spiritual you are..but we are all connected.....anyhow..that's a whole different thread..

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The greatest flaw in humans is that we do feel for others that we really have no emotional attachment to other then they are also human.

Ahhh, so close, so very close!

This is perhaps the greatest flaw in western society, coupled with the assumption that the ideal is an absolute rather than a cultural relative.

There have been many cultures and religions throughout history - not just this certain extreme sect of Islam - who have considered it good and honourable to die in battle (martyrdom). These people do not grieve or feel remorse for the dead, they celebrate it. We "enlightened" westerners are virtually incapable of seeing this as anything other than sadistic and perverse, so we naturally assume that no human being in any region or culture would be capable of such a mentality.

This isn't specific to one extreme sect of Islam - it's been a deeply-rooted belief for many cultures throughout history. Even in the west, we weren't always so sensitive to death. The typical American home used to have a parlour where dear old Dad would be dressed up in his best suit and hung on a coat rack for a week just to make sure that he was really, seriously, honest-to-goodness dead. Today, the idea of death or killing just freaks us out and most of us simply shut down all higher-order brain functions when confronted with the concept.

For such a mentality, it's not even an issue of "collateral damage" or "acceptable losses". When Israel retaliates by bombing the crap out of wherever, the resulting civilian casualties are seen by Hamas as part of a greater good. Their deaths had a purpose, and they will get the red-carpet treatment in heaven. These families aren't sad that various pieces of their 17-year-old sons are stuck to the walls and ceilings of a pizzeria any more than the typical Canadian family would be if their kids decided to go to law school.

The pieces fall into place very easily once you accept the cultural differences. Unfortunately, tolerant and open-minded as we claim to be, we just can't seem to accept that, which makes it all too easy to get taken in by theatrics. Almost everything said in this thread so far proves that.

Death toll reaches well beyond 400 and the world sits by and watches this massacre continue. Where is the fuckin outrage?I guess having a few dead Arabs aint so bad after all is it?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Death toll reaches well beyond 400 and the world sits by and watches this massacre continue. Where is the fuckin outrage?I guess having a few dead Arabs aint so bad after all is it?

The world sits by when thousands are murdered, even millions. Iraq, Darfur, Zimbabwe wherever it may be.

I had to come back to the thread and see what has happened before going to bed.

I cant really post, as I'm in a rush to get some things finished, but I want to say that I'm glad your here Xavier

Yohan and DigiNut, just a quick question that I hope you'll answer...

Where do you get your facts from? Which news outlets do you frequent? Ive asked some of you that same question earlier and no one has answered me. Try to answer it to the fullest, as its a very important question in showing you the fallacy in your reasoning.

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Originally posted by Anas Attia Where do you get your facts from? Which news outlets do you frequent? Ive asked some of you that same question earlier and no one has answered me. Try to answer it to the fullest, as its a very important question in showing you the fallacy in your reasoning.

I don't think that "fallacy" means what you think it means, because you don't need to know the sources in order to point out a logical fallacy.

It seems as though virtually every response from you has the same thrust: "You only get your facts from the mainstream media whereas I do research on conspiracy websites, therefore you are ignorant and I am enlightened and you are wrong and I am right."

In fact I do not frequent any news outlets anymore. I don't have cable TV at home. Once in a while I read the newspaper and I tend to gloss over any really controversial articles because most of the media does piss-poor fact-checking and tends to be horribly biased. Mind you, they do that for the non-controversial topics too, but at least there's not really any harm done there, and somebody will correct me when it comes up in conversation.

What I have done is read several books on the subject, gone through several sites and essays on the subject both pro- and anti-Israel (checking references and weighing evidence accordingly, of course), spoken to a number of people from Israel and from Palestine, and been to the region myself some years ago (although obviously I didn't hang around on the Gaza strip).

I don't really feel like listing every single book and site I've ever gone to, and there's not really any single source I rely on. Suffice it to say that little if any comes from the news media.

I wonder where you get your evidence from. So far, the only sources you've shown us are Wikipedia and some 9/11 conspiracy nut. And the language you use, chock full of words like "oppressed" and "occupation" and "media control" is vaguely reminiscent of an Al-Jazeera broadcast.

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Originally posted by Anas Attia Yohan and DigiNut, just a quick question that I hope you'll answer... Where do you get your facts from? Which news outlets do you frequent? Ive asked some of you that same question earlier and no one has answered me. Try to answer it to the fullest, as its a very important question in showing you the fallacy in your reasoning.

i'm a history major with almost a minor in poli sci (still working on it)

only media i give any credence to is BBC, and globe and mail for domestic stuff

Bah, the beeb is no better than any of the American news, they just use more big words and speak with stuffy accents. For economics and general news they're alright, but when it comes to war or anything resembling it, they turn into total moonbats.

Network news is only good for one thing, which is to tell you "Hey, there seems to be some strange stuff going on here, and if you're really interested then you should probably find someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, otherwise don't form any opinion on the subject."

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Originally posted by gummybear and let's be honest here..there is a lot of Muslim hate in this world...

I agree.... I'll use 'ill-informed' as this is the acceptable term now... It's stereotypes to the ill-informed that help cause hate. The majority of Muslims are just like you and I and everyone who loves life, values everyone and want society to progress, etc...

It sad that that small percentage of extremists and fanatics make such a bad image on everyone else. It's sad they they are the ones getting TV time, they sell commercials. The moderates/seculars wether Muslim, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, MUST STAND UP TO THEIR OWN EXTREMISTS. They are the problem. We can't be scared of them anymore, they are ruining it for us. They won't listen to anyone but their own.

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Originally posted by Anas Attia Where do you get your facts from? Which news outlets do you frequent? Ive asked some of you that same question earlier and no one has answered me. Try to answer it to the fullest, as its a very important question in showing you the fallacy in your reasoning.

So what media is the right one Anas? (I don't have cable or satellite TV if you want my answer). If you are ready to refute others' I am interested in your own, if that is anything different than the several clips and media you have already provided.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Bah, the beeb is no better than any of the American news, they just use more big words and speak with stuffy accents. For economics and general news they're alright, but when it comes to war or anything resembling it, they turn into total moonbats. Network news is only good for one thing, which is to tell you "Hey, there seems to be some strange stuff going on here, and if you're really interested then you should probably find someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, otherwise don't form any opinion on the subject."

yeah. not that i agree with their point of view, but you gotta pay attention to current events somehow, and i've yet to find another media that's better. i read it only for generalities anyways
at least i find it better than cnn

Hey

As a Palestinian, I must say I'm disgusted to see such shallow and insensitive responses to the unquestionable level of oppression my brothers and sisters have been experiencing in Gaza, the West Bank, and the Occupied Territories since 1948. As a student, I'm appalled by the faulty reasoning and incorrect information used by many TAs to back up unreasonable justifications of the IDF's attacks on a Gaza with no electricity, overwhelmed infrastructure, limited food aids, and exhausted medical services. It truly worries me to see how badly people misinterpret this situation, by primarily relying on biased news sources e.g. CNN. A lot of you seem to be quite uninformed about this, so I'm going to 'dumb' it down a little so that everyone can understand what I'm trying to say.

You simply cannot justify the IDF's killing and wounding of countless (literally) Palestinians, with undirected and weak Katyusha rockets landing in desolate areas in southern Israel, which left minimal damage and no deaths. For those who weren't able to comprehend that, simply take some time to compare the level of fear an Israeli child would feel when hearing relatively weak rockets landing miles away, to the fear a Palestinian child would feel when seeing the the family next-door's house being blown up to pieces along with all its inhabitants (that's not just the person who is merely suspected of having relations with Hamas, it could also be his or her whole family) by F16 jets or Apache helicopters. Maybe you guys should take some time to check out some casualty figures.

I do agree that Hamas shouldn't be launching anymore rockets, as the rockets MAY land on innocent inhabitants of the Occupied Territories, most of which didn't live there 50 years ago. However, I would understand why Palestinians might be a little bit frustrated after living under oppression and war, not having enough food, not being able to go to school, not having electricity for heating in the winter, and of course living with little to no human rights on a daily basis.

So PLEASE people... before anyone goes on to insult my people and my beautiful country, please take some time to EDUCATE yourselves about this problem... and I don't mean watching your little box, I mean get off your asses, go the library, and READ!

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Originally posted by Abercrombie It sad that that small percentage of extremists and fanatics make such a bad image on everyone else. The moderates/seculars wether Muslim, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, MUST STAND UP TO THEIR OWN EXTREMISTS. They are the problem. We can't be scared of them anymore, they are ruining it for us. They won't listen to anyone but their own.

It's easier said than done, since Muslims who speak out against their own extreme sects often end up getting killed or at least receive a lot of death threats. It's not so unlike Christianity in the middle ages; very little progress was made until the mainstream took responsibility and started reining in the reactionaries.

What really needs to stop are the awful platitudes that all take the general form of "I don't condone their actions, but I understand them and sympathize with their goals." It's an absolutely unproductive response. In non-weasel it would read: Well, *I* wouldn't have done it but it doesn't really bother me that *they* did it. Complete rubbish.

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Originally posted by jad A lot of you seem to be quite uninformed about this, so I'm going to 'dumb' it down a little so that everyone can understand what I'm trying to say.

So you describe everyone else as uninformed and proceed to provide absolutely no additional information. Well done.

"Rhetoric" is not the definition of "Information".

Are you actually from Palestine or just another self-identified Palestinian?

Recommended for all, at least as something that might potentially interest you, or you could discredit it. Regardless, its a friendly offering of an alternative choice.

www.geo-pol.com
www.alternet.org
www.truthout.org

www.world-newspapers.com (alternative perspectives)

www.theonion.com (had to throw it in)

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Originally posted by Yohan yeah. not that i agree with their point of view, but you gotta pay attention to current events somehow, and i've yet to find another media that's better. i read it only for generalities anyways at least i find it better than cnn

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Originally posted by jad Hey

I agree with you too on many levels. The conditions many Palestinians experience is horrible and unacceptable. We see it on TV and read about it several times a week in all media. I also believe most of them want peace and want the rockets to stop shelling Israel too. Several Israelis have been killed by rockets too, it's not MAY as you mentioned... it has happened, so the fear of the possibility of it happening is very threatening, it's terrorizing, even if a crude shell doesn't hit anything, theyr have been a lot more close calls. However most of the Palestinian casualties are militants in the last few days (confirmed by media sources on both sides), and it is extremely sad and wrong many innocent bystanders were also casualties. It's sad that most Palestinians are repressed by both sides, internally and externally.

However because some of us may not agree 100% with others, it doesn't mean some of us are ill-educated. This goes two ways doesn't it? Don't assume some of us don't, some of us don't boast about our knowledge and experience. We're not six.

I all want to see a ceasefire again. A real one this time. We need to focus on the NOW as the first step.

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Originally posted by InfiniteEclipse www.world-newspapers.com (alternative perspectives)

good site.

for what it's worth.....

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/...3924975479.html

quote:
Originally posted by jad
A lot of you seem to be quite uninformed about this, so I'm going to 'dumb' it down a little so that everyone can understand what I'm trying to say.

So you describe everyone else as uninformed and proceed to provide absolutely no additional information. Well done.

"Rhetoric" is not the definition of "Information".

Are you actually from Palestine or just another self-identified Palestinian?

-------

Those comments were directed at those who are expressing their ideas with simple and uninformed responses, not at those who actually took some time to learn and write about this problem.

I do agree that what I wrote might very well seem rhetoric to some, but I do not need to justify myself to somebody that doesn't know me, my origins, and my experiences.

I find it rude you're asking me whether I'm a Palestinian or just another self-identified Palestinian. Straight up, who are you to ask me that? Is telling you I'm Palestinian not enough for you? The fact that I have a home and family there, that I have a West Bank Green Card (Hawiya Khadra)is none of your business, but I just had to put you in place. 'Another self-identified Palestinian'.. wow buddy.. that's just low and mean.

This is exactly why i wrote my original post.. to encourage those who don't know much and still express strong opinions to learn before they talk.

And diginut.. please do not insultingly question my origins you dick. I won't waste any more of my time with people like you.. you're just here to criticize... not to educate yourself or others.

Here's a link for everyone else: http://www.indymedia.org/or/2008/12/918545.shtml

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Originally posted by gummybear for what it's worth..... http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/...3924975479.html

... yes, a couple of times a month for me.


This one is also good to see another side of the story: http://english.wafa.ps/

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Originally posted by gummybear for what it's worth..... http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/...3924975479.html

I think Al-Jazera should be viewed as another news source with credible news and news casting. There is this stigma that goes around regarding it as some sort of "terrorist" based news station. But it's ratings suggest otherwise, being the most popular news station in the arab-world. If you do some research you will see that its actually quite a popular online news resource. Unless you consider the entire middle east, the many countries who broadcast it, along with the entire online population that watches it a bunch of "terrorists" you will find the news station a good source of alternative views.

And diginut, you really aren't helping in the debate much with your accusations... and secondly, don't be so sure your information sources are all correct as you are trying to show. Why is it that our arguments clash in every way? You could be well-informed but not necessarily with the right information. Im not saying your completely wrong, you just have to re-adjust your idea slightly to accept that the Palestinian people should be getting a fair trial in your head.

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Originally posted by jad You simply cannot justify the IDF's killing and wounding of countless (literally) Palestinians, with undirected and weak Katyusha rockets landing in desolate areas in southern Israel, which left minimal damage and no deaths.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2...nt_10568950.htm

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However, in response, some 60 rockets from Gaza struck areas throughout Israel's surrounding Gaza communities. A rocket attack on Netivot killed an Israeli man and wounded six other people when their apartment was hit by a rocket.

Here is some food for thought: Why do you see rallies and protests, comprised of millions upon millions of people with different ethnicities in different parts of the world over the last few decades, all crying out for Palestine... but you'll be lucky to find one for Israel? Usually the only Israeli protests, are counter-protests. Does that maybe suggest something?

Diginut is a muslim hating peace of shit.Dont take his words too seriously people.


From the way things are going now I wouldnt be surprised if there ll be a third intifada against the zionist regime.

The IDF has to be stopped one way or another.I just cant wait to see that day were the US stope giving shit load of money and weapons to Isreal.

Here comes the ad hominem!!!!




p.s...

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Diginut is a musim hating peace of shit.Dont take his words too seriously people.

spell Muslim right at least, or relax.

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Originally posted by Anas Attia Here is some food for thought: Why do you see rallies and protests, comprised of millions upon millions of people with different ethnicities in different parts of the world over the last few decades, all crying out for Palestine... but you'll be lucky to find one for Israel? Usually the only Israeli protests, are counter-protests. Does that maybe suggest something?

Europe is so progressive in their social movements..we seriously need to take a page out of their book....

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