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-- The illegal war is on :: denounce America’s imperialism !
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Also, I would like to ask DJ Hordash to close this thread. It has degenerated into nothing but babylike trolling on the part of some people.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle Atleast with journalism, it is verified. Imagine how bad CNN would look if they carried fake news so they don't.

Ok this is seriously my last post, but I just had to comment on this.
Yes CNN gives out real news, but they don't tell you everything.
Perhaps you should look into some of Noam Chomsky's work, it's quite interesting.

Ray_Finkle....

in all that BS u posted in ur last post about me, u mentioned that i say people are wrong.....point out one post...just one fuckin post where i tell someone they are wrong... all i have been telling u and oceanlabto think beyond what u 2 read and see on the news and all u and oceanlab know to do is start getting sarcastic and claiming i have no point???

just cos i dont save every freakin link i visit and therefore cant provide u any links..i watch news more than i read it....u expect me to record and convert the documentaries and interviews i watch into a digital format and show u/????

if u concider me childish, ur just a sperm then

quote:

Originally posted by DJLocoMoco Ok this is seriously my last post, but I just had to comment on this. Yes CNN gives out real news, but they don't tell you everything. Perhaps you should look into some of Noam Chomsky's work, it's quite interesting.

lol yea Chomsky is real unbiased.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee Ray_Finkle.... in all that BS u posted in ur last post about me, u mentioned that i say people are wrong.....point out one post...just one fuckin post where i tell someone they are wrong... all i have been telling u and oceanlabto think beyond what u 2 read and see on the news and all u and oceanlab know to do is start getting sarcastic and claiming i have no point??? just cos i dont save every freakin link i visit and therefore cant provide u any links..i watch news more than i read it....u expect me to record and convert the documentaries and interviews i watch into a digital format and show u/???? if u concider me childish, ur just a sperm then

why do automatically assume that I don't read a variety of newspapers?
you can't seem to come to terms with the fact that, knowing everything that is going on, from every stand point, I still think Iraq needs to be changed. I don't really give a fu.ck who does it, but it seems that only the US has balls. So maybe, and this is gonna piss you off, maybe the US deserves to take that OIL (not that they are, and you DON'T know otherwise because it hasn't happened yet), maybe they deserve to take it as a reward for liberating a nation that is wartorn and bankrupt despite the obvious wealth they possess.

just wondering .. but if some of you guys were involved in both the pro-war/anti-war protests, would you physically fight the other side if things got violent and you disagreed with them enough?

I didn't want to get involved, but it just makes me so mad that some people here are as arrogant as they are. You are exactly the result of this propaganda fuelled by the US, Bush, his administration, and US media, namely CNN and its infirior.
The war is simply and clearly not justified. Where are the weapons of mass destruction that are the supposed reason for this madness? And if there are any, are they being used? And I want proof that Iraq is the only one that has the possession of this arsenal. More importantly, I want proof that America itself doesn't have any weapons of mass destruction.
Bush is the damn threat to the world peace.
Bush should be the one to disarm.
This war is just a game that the US administration wants to play. It is a substitute for not being able to find and punish Bin Laden.

I am very thrilled to see so many demonstrations and millions of protesters around the world objecting the war. And as plain as the following statement may be, it is a fact that we protest because we believe that this way we can show US that they are not the sole prevailing power in the world - that the people united are stronger.

I don't have anymore time for this..

..Peace..

quote:

Originally posted by brunette I didn't want to get involved, but it just makes me so mad that some people here are as arrogant as they are. You are exactly the result of this propaganda fuelled by the US, Bush, his administration, and US media, namely CNN and its infirior. The war is simply and clearly not justified. Where are the weapons of mass destruction that are the supposed reason for this madness? And if there are any, are they being used? And I want proof that Iraq is the only one that has the possession of this arsenal. More importantly, I want proof that America itself doesn't have any weapons of mass destruction. Bush is the damn threat to the world peace. Bush should be the one to disarm. This war is just a game that the US administration wants to play. It is a substitute for not being able to find and punish Bin Laden. I am very thrilled to see so many demonstrations and millions of protesters around the world objecting the war. And as plain as the following statement may be, it is a fact that we protest because we believe that this way we can show US that they are not the sole prevailing power in the world - that the people united are stronger. I don't have anymore time for this.. ..Peace..

i didn't even want to get involved but it just makes me mad that people are so ignorant sometimes. the war is clearly legal and justified. why is saddam firing cruise missiles if he said he didn't have any? why can a murderer (yes he was a hitman before going into politics) run a country and command armed forces? why did it take this long to take this avenue and intervene? why wasn't Iraq invaded in the 90s after they failed to comply with weapons inspectors?
why are people so ignorant? you are all being fed French, German, and Arab propaganda...this is exactly what they want you to think....blah ....blah.....blahhhhhhhhhhh

people are so eager to accuse everyone of believing propoganda...thats just BS...i don't watch CNN, i get world news from bbc or the london times, if an article is of interest, i look that same article up in a dozen other papers...including contrasting opinion. both sides are feeding propoganda...and all these peace activists want Saddam in power?? I don't understand why? if you dont want saddam in power then you are just a cranky little child...because then you want the US to withdraw and yet Saddam quit his post. wwaaahhh waaahhh waaahhhh there is war! peace peace peace...whatever, sometimes a gun has to be taken out of the hands of a killer! sometimes he doesnt put it down him/herself.

quote:

Originally posted by brunette I didn't want to get involved, but it just makes me so mad that some people here are as arrogant as they are. You are exactly the result of this propaganda fuelled by the US, Bush, his administration, and US media, namely CNN and its infirior. The war is simply and clearly not justified. Where are the weapons of mass destruction that are the supposed reason for this madness? And if there are any, are they being used? And I want proof that Iraq is the only one that has the possession of this arsenal. More importantly, I want proof that America itself doesn't have any weapons of mass destruction. Bush is the damn threat to the world peace. Bush should be the one to disarm. This war is just a game that the US administration wants to play. It is a substitute for not being able to find and punish Bin Laden. I am very thrilled to see so many demonstrations and millions of protesters around the world objecting the war. And as plain as the following statement may be, it is a fact that we protest because we believe that this way we can show US that they are not the sole prevailing power in the world - that the people united are stronger. I don't have anymore time for this.. ..Peace..

Did you just read my mind ? Or is it possible that there are a lot of people who see this war for what it is...



Peace....

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid Did you just read my mind ? Or is it possible that there are a lot of people who see this war for what it is... Peace....

nah...u aint alone...alot of us feel he same way

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab i didn't even want to get involved but it just makes me mad that people are so ignorant sometimes. the war is clearly legal and justified. why is saddam firing cruise missiles if he said he didn't have any? why can a murderer (yes he was a hitman before going into politics) run a country and command armed forces? why did it take this long to take this avenue and intervene? why wasn't Iraq invaded in the 90s after they failed to comply with weapons inspectors? why are people so ignorant? you are all being fed French, German, and Arab propaganda...this is exactly what they want you to think....blah ....blah.....blahhhhhhhhhhh people are so eager to accuse everyone of believing propoganda...thats just BS...i don't watch CNN, i get world news from bbc or the london times, if an article is of interest, i look that same article up in a dozen other papers...including contrasting opinion. both sides are feeding propoganda...and all these peace activists want Saddam in power?? I don't understand why? if you dont want saddam in power then you are just a cranky little child...because then you want the US to withdraw and yet Saddam quit his post. wwaaahhh waaahhh waaahhhh there is war! peace peace peace...whatever, sometimes a gun has to be taken out of the hands of a killer! sometimes he doesnt put it down him/herself.

My last War rant...promise.

Wow ! Where to start with a post that makes no sense at all. No one is saying that Saddam isn't a dictator. No one is saying he should remain in power. But you know what ? The decsion to remove a man from power falls to the people he is governing, not an invading army. Think about for a minute. Have the Iraqi people called out for international aid in removing Saddam ? Have the UN (The supposed united voice of the global community) pleaded for the world to take notice of Saddam and his oppression ? No...you know why ? Because people like Saddam exist in other countries as well. The world has known dictatorial regieme's before...it will know them again. It is the base nature of man to seize and abuse power. As deplorable as Saddam and his counterparts the world over are...the issue at hand still remains that he is the leader of a soverign country. Iraq is not part of the US. So what business does the US have of invading it, and demanding that the regieme be changed. I was horrified when Bush asked Saddam to leave his own country...think about for a second, here is a citizen of America, telling a man who has been born in Iraq to leave. If this kind of demand doesn't scare the world, i don't think you need to wait for the bombs to drop on you...because if you let this clear demonstration of American aggression go unnoticed they will do it again. And maybe next time, it might be a country a lot closer to home.


Facts
------
1. The US never satisfactorially convinced the world that Saddam has WMD or plans to use them against the US.

2. The US are the aggressors in this case, unlike the Gulf War. Bush mobilized forces months in advance to this invasion (and that's what it is). Saddam didn't roll his tanks into Kuwait. Saddam didn't launch a nuke at Washington (we don't even know if he has one).

3. The US have gone ahead with this invasion despite not getting UN support. Why the rush to start a war ? Why not give peace a chance ? could it possibly be that there is an alterior motive behind sending forces to Iraq...could it be that a country which has had a major war almost every 20 years in it's recent history simply believes in the philosophy that. War = Economic Prosperity ?

Final Nore
----------
I want Saddam out of power. I want Iraq free, and the US people safe from the threat of Terriorism. But I know that sending tanks into Baghdad and planes carrying bombs into the heart of that city will only result in the loss of innocent lives. Voices raised against the US in this war are not voices of enemy sympathizers, they are the voices of reason who have realized that war has stopped being a solution to security.

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid My last War rant...promise. Wow ! Where to start with a post that makes no sense at all. No one is saying that Saddam isn't a dictator. No one is saying he should remain in power. But you know what ? The decsion to remove a man from power falls to the people he is governing, not an invading army. Think about for a minute. Have the Iraqi people called out for international aid in removing Saddam ? Have the UN (The supposed united voice of the global community) pleaded for the world to take notice of Saddam and his oppression ? No...you know why ? Because people like Saddam exist in other countries as well. The world has known dictatorial regieme's before...it will know them again. It is the base nature of man to seize and abuse power. As deplorable as Saddam and his counterparts the world over are...the issue at hand still remains that he is the leader of a soverign country. Iraq is not part of the US. So what business does the US have of invading it, and demanding that the regieme be changed. I was horrified when Bush asked Saddam to leave his own country...think about for a second, here is a citizen of America, telling a man who has been born in Iraq to leave. If this kind of demand doesn't scare the world, i don't think you need to wait for the bombs to drop on you...because if you let this clear demonstration of American aggression go unnoticed they will do it again. And maybe next time, it might be a country a lot closer to home. Facts ------ 1. The US never satisfactorially convinced the world that Saddam has WMD or plans to use them against the US. 2. The US are the aggressors in this case, unlike the Gulf War. Bush mobilized forces months in advance to this invasion (and that's what it is). Saddam didn't roll his tanks into Kuwait. Saddam didn't launch a nuke at Washington (we don't even know if he has one). 3. The US have gone ahead with this invasion despite not getting UN support. Why the rush to start a war ? Why not give peace a chance ? could it possibly be that there is an alterior motive behind sending forces to Iraq...could it be that a country which has had a major war almost every 20 years in it's recent history simply believes in the philosophy that. War = Economic Prosperity ? Final Nore ---------- I want Saddam out of power. I want Iraq free, and the US people safe from the threat of Terriorism. But I know that sending tanks into Baghdad and planes carrying bombs into the heart of that city will only result in the loss of innocent lives. Voices raised against the US in this war are not voices of enemy sympathizers, they are the voices of reason who have realized that war has stopped being a solution to security.

in my final post in this thread, im gonna say that THAT was the most brilliant post amongst all war threads

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid 1. The US never satisfactorially convinced the world that Saddam has WMD or plans to use them against the US.

Personally, I don't think that's the point.

The point is that if people don't have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of movement, freedom of thought, freedom to be the best they can be, freedom to choose their own gov't that represents the masses, and a gov't the represses them and causes them to starve and be poor - the rest of the world has an obligation to assist them in getting it.

Regardless of whether it is Iraq, the US or anybody - people deserve to be free. Is war the best answer - in my opinion, no - but in this case has the other answer worked in the last 12 years - clearly not. The US says this war is not about : oil, occupation, anti-muslim rhetoric.

I don't agree with war, but I also don't agree with people not having fundimental freedoms (and the rest of the free world doing nothing about it).

quote:

3. The US have gone ahead with this invasion despite not getting UN support. Why the rush to start a war?

The UN has no credibility anymore, that is why the US acted unilaterally - they had no choice - the UN wasn't going to do anything.

Why does it (the UN) have no credibility:

1) Attempting to appoint Libia as the human rights watchdog (!?!?!?)

2) Considering Iraq as the de-weponization watchdog (!?!?!?)

3) Fairlure to reach a consensus on enforcing UN resolutions

Further more (in my opinion) the UN gives 1 vote to every country - clearly not democratic - democracy is based on equal represntation - not 1 vote for each special interest group. How can a body govern based on this principal?

I am -very- disappointed that the UN is in this state. I wish the UN would have matured from it's history 50 years ago (and the failed league of nations 80 years ago) to a more effective organization. For an organization that was set up to help world peace it has turned into (in my opinion) a non decisive organization that chooses to debate continually rather than influencing change and betterment of the world.

I am disappointed that the US is at war right now. I wish Saddam would have disarmed years ago, allowed weapons inspectors to do their job before forcing them out, disclosed fully the destruction of their weapons and weapons programs. I'm also disappointed that Saddam didn't take the oil-for-food money to actually buy food, but instead decided to increase his personal riches to $5-$8 billion (US$) while most of the people of his country were starving and whithout health care (and while most of his supporters became rich too). Not to mention the fact that Iraq has the 2nd/3rd largest oil reserve in the world - they should be like many of the other Arab states which have next to no poverty and present a life of opportunity for all (due to their oil riches).

Is war the answer? No - and I strongly belive that.

However - ask yourself this - without a strong allied front in WWII who chose to stand up to a dictator who robbed his country of riches, killed innocent people and took away their freedoms (similar to Saddam) - where would Europe be today (I say speaking German or Russian).

My $0.02 - or $0.013 CAD$....

quote:

Originally posted by DJLocoMoco He mentioned that one of the reasons Saddam came to power in Iraq was because the US actually supported his party

The US supported Iraq to try and fight Iran which had communist ties at the time. This was during the cold-war (which ended 1989-1991) and the same rules don't apply.

Here's some interesting facts to understand France's aprehension to the war:

- France sold $25 billion worth of arms to Iraq since 1982 (including a number of Mirage fighters)

- France continued to sell weapons to Iraq even after the US determined that it was no longer appropriate or called-for.

- France's national oil company has rights to the most productive Iraqi oil-fields as a result of their strong weapons relationshps. These rights are set to take place in 2004. Any disruption of Saddams pseudo-gov't will cause a cancellation of these contracts.

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL http://www.gulfwardrinkinggame.com/ the gulf war two drinking game

Good thing I'm drinking beer or I'd be thrown in jail for public intoxication by now!

quote:

Originally posted by DJLocoMoco Noam Chomsky's work, it's quite interesting.

I agree it's interesting. I've read many of his works...

But he isn't that unbiased (but then again, who's works aren't - everybody has an opinion/cause to push)..

Ok, I'm too tired to debate.. We should have a TA debate night at the UCC's Great Hall or something.. lol.

Wee!

Truth is the foundation to happiness and justice... I'm sure both the Americans and Sadaam have had and still do have their share of hidden truths (maybe even facts that we are unaware of right now) , and misleading lies (they are not the only ones, and this is the reason why world peace is unlikely) . When things as such goes too far, its too late to turn back, and the war today is the consequence. I cannot say much about this war because I am not as educated as many of you are. And for protesteers who behave so disobedient/negatively, those actions would only adds more support to the injustice, which contradicts everything they are fighting for. I must also say this has been a very interesting post, lol, and it shouldn't matter who's wrong or right, as long as we are getting closer to the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker Stuff which I am most of the other pro-deposing of Saddam people have been trying to say all along

Sorry rabbitjoker, what you just said makes too much sense to be in this thread. Also, LKD, you think that because I have no experiance living in the middle east makes me automatically wrong and you concede to the exact same points that I make when other people ask you. Is it really hard to type something into google and find out some information on it.

Honestly LKD, you have contributed nothing of relevence to this thread. Am I and others just supposed to take your word for it that something happened? Of course not. You were the one that initiated all the derogatory remarks in this thread and sent it off course. As I was looking back a couple of pages, I even see that you start calling oceanlab a "racist" when what he said had clearly nothing to do with him being racist. I don't know what else I can do here. I am obviously not here to try and tell you that your opinions are wrong, I as well as others that are on this side of the debate are merely trying to explain our point and we are doing that with quotes. I would love for you to justify your side. I would really love it, but you aren't giving any proof. Would you write a formal english essay on Shakespeare without referencing the text? No, you would get burned for it. That's what you are doing. The only one being juvenile here is you and not only is it hurting your credibility, but it is also hurting your side's ability to get its message out. You can call me a sperm or whatever all you like but the fact of the matter remains, HOW WOULD YOU GO ABOUT GETTING SADDAM OUT OF POWER. ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle Originally posted by rabbitjoker Stuff which I am most of the other pro-deposing of Saddam people have been trying to say all along Sorry rabbitjoker, what you just said makes too much sense to be in this thread.

Um, maybe it's that I'm too tired talking but I did a search of the quote I said I can't remember it. I'm not saying you disagree though, I'm just not sure I said what you quoted.

Can you post my whole post, so I can recall the context (even though I feel you agreeing with me).

Thanks!

Yeah I was just saying that your post made a lot of sense and was well constructed.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle Yeah I was just saying that your post made a lot of sense and was well constructed.

Oi! No need to find the post then . This is a complex situation - no answer is 100% right, but an answer has to be had, for the betterment of word and mostly the betterment of the poor people of Iraq. I hope Iraq becomes the powerful, democratic nation that it should be (with all it's resources) - they deserve it after so many years of hardship/repression.

to the pro-war TOTA's:

how successful will a post Saddam government be in Iraq (considering rival Shiite, Suni, and Kurdish Muslim groups)?

referring to this article:
http://www.time.com/time/world/arti...00.html?cnn=yes


to the anti-war TOTA's:

If you were a citizen of Iraq, would you take up arms or accept US control willingly?

..yes, it would be more peaceful without Saddam in power... but the world would be so much more peaceful without Bush in power

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL to the anti-war TOTA's: If you were a citizen of Iraq, would you take up arms or accept US control willingly?

to everyone:

If u were in ur own homeland, and ordered to leave ur own country and never come back by someone from a totally different country, would you??

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