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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Someone should rename this thread to culorut v.s pkcRAISTLIN

I tried

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Fucking no planer idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by culorut What matching parts? Prove it. I already posted that none of the planes where ever matched on 9/11. Not likely, but I am more concerned about backing this up with evidence if that is what you say. Again random plane parts on a lawn does not prove jack shit. It is very easy to plant parts considering they closed off the area rather quickly, maybe it was not even Flight 77's parts on lawn.

God damn you are a thick fuck. Can you ever answer a question with an answer rather than another question? I've asked you two times to explain what happened at the Pentagon if Flight 77 didn't hit it and twice now you have failed to offer any other possible explanation. The preponderance of real evidence available shows that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. You believe the evidence to be fabricated and false. The burden of proof is on you, not me, to prove that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. In order to prove that you have to present real and verifiable evidence that something other that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. But then providing actual evidence and proof is where you truther halfwits always choke.

Please read the information in this link in its entirety:

Boeing 757 engine part evidence at the Pentagon reviewed by aerospace industry professionals, not some tinfoil hat wearing truther with no qualifications like you always post

Now considering the following:

1. Your "evidence" of a Cheney stand down order and Cheney being "in control" of NORAD (whatever that was supposed to mean) was false and just an out of context quote typical of truther "evidence"

2. At the Pentagon there are burned parts of a 757 engine

3. Multiple eye witnesses saw a large jet aircraft crash into the Pentagon (thanks pkc for already finding the quotes)

4. Flight 77, a large Boeing 757 aircraft and (more importantly) all its crew and passengers are missing and have never been found

Edit: 5. Information from an actual professional with qualifications who was on the scene at the Pentagon: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

All this information leads me to logically conclude that a Boeing 757 crashed at the Pentagon. Since Flight 77 is a Boeing 757 and is missing and its last known location on radar was headed toward Washington D.C. I logically conclude that the Boeing 757 that struck the Pentagon was in fact Flight 77.

Since you contend that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon I would like you to answer the following, and I'll try to make the questions simple so even you can understand:

1. What do you believe happened at the Pentagon?

2. Where is Flight 77, its crew, and all its passengers?

Please support your answers with actual, verifiable evidence (yeah right), not more questions.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX 2. Where is Flight 77, its crew, and all its passengers?

Oh, I know this one! They're all lost in an island or something, and you can see them on ABC every week!

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX So again you cannot just answer a simple question. In typical truther fashion you love to post that Mineta quote about Cheney completely out of context. Here is the quote in context: As you can clearly see when it is posted IN CONTEXT, Cheney was only confirming that the order to shoot DOWN hijacked aircraft still stood. Cheney was not in charge of shit, he wasn't issuing any stand down orders, he was only confirming for this staff person that Bush had authorized the shootdowns. Unfortunately the Air Force was never in a position to be able to shoot down any of the aircraft. So without your precious Mineta misquote to "prove" that Cheney ordered a stand down I ask again, please tell me what you believe happened at the Pentagon:

something hit the western side of the pentagon, an area under renovations, no tactical loss for the government.

Mineta's testimony was censored, by the way.
--------------

NORAD says the F-16s from Langley were still 105 miles and 12 minutes away.

Langley is 130 miles from the Pentagon. F-16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH. Minus 105 miles left from 130 miles = 25 miles covered in the 7 minutes from 9:30 take-off to 9:37. 60 minutes divided by 7 minutes equals 8.57, times this by the 25 miles covered, equals 214.3 MPH. divided by 1500 MPH equals 14.3% of their top speed. How could these two F-15s possibly be going one seventh of their top speed in trying to intercept Flight 77? Even the story about first flying to NYC does not account for this unbelievably slow speed because they got the message to redirect to Washington D.C. within a couple of minutes of take-off, and NYC and Washington D.C. are almost exactly the same direction (north) from Langley.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} something hit the western side of the pentagon, an area under renovations, no tactical loss for the government. Mineta's testimony was censored, by the way. -------------- NORAD says the F-16s from Langley were still 105 miles and 12 minutes away. Langley is 130 miles from the Pentagon. F-16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH. Minus 105 miles left from 130 miles = 25 miles covered in the 7 minutes from 9:30 take-off to 9:37. 60 minutes divided by 7 minutes equals 8.57, times this by the 25 miles covered, equals 214.3 MPH. divided by 1500 MPH equals 14.3% of their top speed. How could these two F-15s possibly be going one seventh of their top speed in trying to intercept Flight 77? Even the story about first flying to NYC does not account for this unbelievably slow speed because they got the message to redirect to Washington D.C. within a couple of minutes of take-off, and NYC and Washington D.C. are almost exactly the same direction (north) from Langley.

What are you doing, competing with cretinrot to see who can be the biggest truther jackass in this thread? Did you even bother to read that link I posted before? I didn't think so, but then it was 11 pages so that is probably a lot for you to handle. Let me filter out just the timeline for you so even you can understand:

08:37:52 - NORAD is first contacted about a hijacked aircraft. The air traffic controller who contacted NORAD has no idea where the aircraft is or where it is headed. They cannot find the aircraft among the thousands of planes on their scopes because the hijackers have turned off the transponders. NORAD contacts Otis to ready the F-15s.

08:44:59 - NORAD commander orders the launch of the F-15s from Otis even though Flight 11 cannot be located. He sends them in the general direction of NYC.

08:46:40 - Flight 11 hits the WTC. NORAD and air traffic controllers still have no idea where the plane is.

08:52:40 - F-15s from Otis are just now airborne and are sent to NYC

09:03:17 - Flight 175 hits the WTC, the F-15s have not yet arrived

The F-15s had about 11 minutes to make it from Otis to NYC, a distance they might have been able to make had they flown a beeline to NYC at supersonic speed. However, since this was pre 9/11 operation and they were military aircraft without a target they were vectored into military airspace and held outside of New York air traffic since they had no known target or mission.

The F-16s from Langley were not breifed as to why they were being scrambled so they followed their typical cold-war era patrol pattern out to sea diverting them from DC.

Try at least getting your simple timelines/information straight before you start trying to be some kind of math wiz by calculating how long it would take to fly from an air force base to a target.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX What are you doing, competing with cretinrot to see who can be the biggest truther jackass in this thread? Did you even bother to read that link I posted before? I didn't think so, but then it was 11 pages so that is probably a lot for you to handle. Let me filter out just the timeline for you so even you can understand: 08:37:52 - NORAD is first contacted about a hijacked aircraft. The air traffic controller who contacted NORAD has no idea where the aircraft is or where it is headed. They cannot find the aircraft among the thousands of planes on their scopes because the hijackers have turned off the transponders. NORAD contacts Otis to ready the F-15s. 08:44:59 - NORAD commander orders the launch of the F-15s from Otis even though Flight 11 cannot be located. He sends them in the general direction of NYC. 08:46:40 - Flight 11 hits the WTC. NORAD and air traffic controllers still have no idea where the plane is. 08:52:40 - F-15s from Otis are just now airborne and are sent to NYC 09:03:17 - Flight 175 hits the WTC, the F-15s have not yet arrived The F-15s had about 11 minutes to make it from Otis to NYC, a distance they might have been able to make had they flown a beeline to NYC at supersonic speed. However, since this was pre 9/11 operation and they were military aircraft without a target they were vectored into military airspace and held outside of New York air traffic since they had no known target or mission. The F-16s from Langley were not breifed as to why they were being scrambled so they followed their typical cold-war era patrol pattern out to sea diverting them from DC. Try at least getting your simple timelines/information straight before you start trying to be some kind of math wiz by calculating how long it would take to fly from an air force base to a target.

I wasn't talking about the WTC. The focus of the conversation was the Pentagon. Which was struck by Flight 77 at 9:37.

No points for reading comprehension. Nice work with the insults. Wiz.

Timelines, hey?

9:24 AM : The FAA, who 28 minutes earlier had discovered Flight 77 off course and heading east over West Virginia, reportedly notifies NORAD. A Pentagon spokesman says, "The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way." [50 miles out.... 30 miles out... 10 miles out...]

9:28 AM: Air traffic control learns that Flight 93 has been hijacked.


9:38 AM: Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. [42 minutes or more after contact was lost, one hour after NORAD notification of first hijacking.

________

Read it twice this time.


..good luck with the math. Wiz.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Timelines, hey? 9:24 AM : The FAA, who 28 minutes earlier had discovered Flight 77 off course and heading east over West Virginia, reportedly notifies NORAD. A Pentagon spokesman says, "The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way." [50 miles out.... 30 miles out... 10 miles out...] 9:28 AM: Air traffic control learns that Flight 93 has been hijacked. 9:38 AM: Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. [42 minutes or more after contact was lost, one hour after NORAD notification of first hijacking. ________ Read it twice this time. ..good luck with the math. Wiz.

So what's your point dickhead? That NORAD's ability to identify and intercept aircraft entering from overseas really didn't prepare them for hijacked aircraft on 911?

I love how previously you have stated that you don�t really care about 911 and youre not a conspiracy theorist, yet every single post you've made in here is filled with the popular lies of the truth club.

oh gee, look what i found cretinrot?

quote:

The videos taken from the Pentagon area after the 9/11 attacks were mentioned in the Maguire declaration, where FBI Special Agent, Jacqueline Maguire responded (see below) to a request from Scott Bingham. In Summary: She determined that the FBI had 85 videotaptes that might be relevant. Of those, 56 "of these videotapes did not show either the Pentagon building, the Pentagon crash site, or the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11." Of the 29 remaining videotapes, 16 "did not show the Pentagon crash site and did not show the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon." Of the 13 remaining tapes which showed the Pentagon crash site, 12 "only showed after the impact of Flight 77." The videotape taken from the Citgo gas station did not show the impact. No videotapes were located from the Sheraton Hotel, though she located a videotape from the Doubletree Hotel.

http://www.flight77.info/85videos.html

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN So what's your point dickhead? That NORAD's ability to identify and intercept aircraft entering from overseas really didn't prepare them for hijacked aircraft on 911? I love how previously you have stated that you don�t really care about 911 and youre not a conspiracy theorist, yet every single post you've made in here is filled with the popular lies of the truth club.

Do you actually think that the official report is factual and spot-on? Even that horseshit about 30 cellphone calls being made to love ones? Jesus Christ.

Even if the Twin Towers were both [incredibly] destroyed by jetplanes, that doesn't include building 7 which is an OBVIOUS demolition.

I find it amusing that people like you and Xanax can't have a debate without resorting to insults and slander. In the end, none of this matters, truly. If there is indeed treachery behind these acts it will never be brought to light.
__________

In regard to the NORAD timeline, I suppose you forgot to think? Isn't it interesting that the F-16s were only flying 1/7 of their top speed to intercept the plane on its way to the Pentagon? Also, the spokesman of the Pentagon stating, "The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way." Which is obviously a lie, since we know Cheney was aware of the entire approach.

And doesn't it make you curious that Marvin Bush was the head of Securacom? Or the missing millions?

A major aspect of 9/11 has been excluded from the entire U.S. media after September 11th, and was also omitted from The 9/11 Commission Report. The sudden fall to earth, on September 11th, 2001, of World Trade Center Building 7. Not hit by airplane or significant debris, 300 feet shorter than closest Twin Tower, and with just a few small fires burning within it, at 5:20PM EDT this massive concrete and steel-framed 47-story skyscraper imploded into its own footprint in less than seven seconds. Its rapid implosion had all of the characteristics of a controlled demolition, and the World Trade Center leaseholder, Larry Silverstein, stated in so many words that the building had been collapsed by demolition. It takes weeks, if not months, to prepare the demolition of a building as large as WTC 7; this implosion could not have been engineered and implemented in seven chaotic hours on September 11th. Therefore, a question emerges:


Who had the means and expertise to engineer such a demolition and acquire needed materiel, and who had access to WTC Building 7 PRIOR TO September 11, 2001 in order to place the explosives?

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Do you actually think that the official report is factual and spot-on?

of course not. why would you expect it to be? its often an estimation because there are loads of things that are never going to add up perfectly. lunatics LIVE for these small inaccuracies.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Even that horseshit about 30 cellphone calls being made to love ones? Jesus Christ.

yeah, i think its MUCH more likely that the government managed to fool those respective loved ones into thinking they were really talking to their husband/wife/child/parent

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Even if the Twin Towers were both [incredibly] destroyed by jetplanes, that doesn't include building 7 which is an OBVIOUS demolition.

yeah, because all those fire fighters that have given testimony concerning the condition of the huge gaping inferno of WTC7 are just liars.

WTC3 wasn't hit by a plane either, i guess this was a demolition too?

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} I find it amusing that people like you and Xanax can't have a debate without resorting to insults and slander.

you retarded truthers dont deserve any better. why elevate the nature of the discussion and confuse lurkers into thinking your accusations are worthy of a measured response? you disingenuous fucktards don't listen, you wont answer specific questions, you employ the most ludicrously complicated explanations without any evidence, you completely fail to address the gaping holes in your logic, you can't tell good evidence from bad, you leap to the most idiotic conclusions... the list goes on and on.

and you wonder why we attack you personally?

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} In regard to the NORAD timeline, I suppose you forgot to think? Isn't it interesting that the F-16s were only flying 1/7 of their top speed to intercept the plane on its way to the Pentagon? Also, the spokesman of the Pentagon stating, "The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way." Which is obviously a lie, since we know Cheney was aware of the entire approach.

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.


6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} And doesn't it make you curious that Marvin Bush was the head of Securacom? Or the missing millions? A major aspect of 9/11 has been excluded from the entire U.S. media after September 11th, and was also omitted from The 9/11 Commission Report. The sudden fall to earth, on September 11th, 2001, of World Trade Center Building 7. Not hit by airplane or significant debris, 300 feet shorter than closest Twin Tower, and with just a few small fires burning within it, at 5:20PM EDT this massive concrete and steel-framed 47-story skyscraper imploded into its own footprint in less than seven seconds. Its rapid implosion had all of the characteristics of a controlled demolition, and the World Trade Center leaseholder, Larry Silverstein, stated in so many words that the building had been collapsed by demolition. It takes weeks, if not months, to prepare the demolition of a building as large as WTC 7; this implosion could not have been engineered and implemented in seven chaotic hours on September 11th. Therefore, a question emerges: Who had the means and expertise to engineer such a demolition and acquire needed materiel, and who had access to WTC Building 7 PRIOR TO September 11, 2001 in order to place the explosives?

you're a complete and total fuckwit. anyone that thinks there were only "small" fires in WTC7 deserves to be called as such. I love how you claimed you were "just asking questions" when its fucking obvious you're a card-carrying member of the truth club. I bet you don�t believe a plane hit the pentagon either.

Heh. ooo00Oooo someone in a forum doesn't respect me.

You're an idiot



Firefighter Transcript Made Public
http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html

Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've just had another explosion.
Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've had additional explosion.
Dispatcher: Received battalion command. Additional explosion .
[...]
Dispatcher: Battalion 5, be advised we're trying to contact Battalion 3 at this moment to report north tower just collapsed.


It's total horseshit. Eat it.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} It's total horseshit. Eat it.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Heh. ooo00Oooo someone in a forum doesn't respect me. You're an idiot Firefighter Transcript Made Public http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've just had another explosion. Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've had additional explosion. Dispatcher: Received battalion command. Additional explosion . [...] Dispatcher: Battalion 5, be advised we're trying to contact Battalion 3 at this moment to report north tower just collapsed. It's total horseshit. Eat it.

Of all the dozens and dozens and dozens of videos that were rolling that day not a single video tape has anything even approaching the sound of demolition charges einstein. And we all know, if you can't post a video of it on youtube, then it didn't happen!

Arseclown.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course not. why would you expect it to be? its often an estimation because there are loads of things that are never going to add up perfectly. lunatics LIVE for these small inaccuracies.

Power-hungry oil thirsty politicians live for those big opportunities. Bush and Cheney, off the record behind closed doors? incredible. The Patriot Act was passed, that was a bonus for them too.. you know.. like the conceptual trillions they would be tossing into the military wasn't enough.

fucking people. answer in a paragraph like a normal person. this line by line bullshit is tedious.

quote:

yeah, i think its MUCH more likely that the government managed to fool those respective loved ones into thinking they were really talking to their husband/wife/child/parent

Are you serious? I don't get the sarcasm, really. Is that one of the conspiracies? The government called the families?.. retarded. But 30 calls made with success? I forget the odds of making a call at their height, but you'd have better chances in Vegas winning against Bond, heads up with Royal Flush to Straight Flush; taking into account that Bond doesn't exist. It's either fluff for the report and a testament to the willingness of the government to lie about nearly everything, or a blatant lie in order to obtain credibility.

quote:

yeah, because all those fire fighters that have given testimony concerning the condition of the huge gaping inferno of WTC7 are just liars. WTC3 wasn't hit by a plane either, i guess this was a demolition too?

I would be inclined to call that collateral damage.

quote:

you retarded truthers dont deserve any better. why elevate the nature of the discussion and confuse lurkers into thinking your accusations are worthy of a measured response? you disingenuous fucktards don't listen, you wont answer specific questions, you employ the most ludicrously complicated explanations without any evidence, you completely fail to address the gaping holes in your logic, you can't tell good evidence from bad, you leap to the most idiotic conclusions... the list goes on and on.

And you're such an open minded guru, mother******? lol. I haven't made any incredible leaps in logic, anywhere in my statements. You're the kind of guy that looks at this picture and say they're the exact same person. To me, that tells me instantly that you have no perception and you're really a waste of time. Let alone you're on the internet calling people names.

quote:

and you wonder why we attack you personally?

I don't wonder about you at all.

yep, no fires to see here!

quote:

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we�re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn�t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn�t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I�m standing next to said, that building doesn�t look straight. So I�m standing there. I�m looking at the building. It didn�t look right, but, well, we�ll go in, we�ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody�s going into 7, there�s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned. Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side? Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it. Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many? Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we�ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} You're the kind of guy that looks at this picture

oh, sorry. i forgot that people photographed/filmed at different times with different quality/types of video will always look exactly the same, even if the said video is changed between PAL and NTSC once or twice. people don't age or gain/lose weight or anything if they're captured on video.

must be like a modern dorian gray.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, sorry. i forgot that people photographed/filmed at different times with different quality/types of video will always look exactly the same, even if the said video is changed between PAL and NTSC once or twice. people don't age or gain/lose weight or anything if they're captured on video. must be like a modern dorian gray.

and this one?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, sorry. i forgot that people photographed/filmed at different times with different quality/types of video will always look exactly the same, even if the said video is changed between PAL and NTSC once or twice. people don't age or gain/lose weight or anything if they're captured on video. must be like a modern dorian gray.

additionally, the picture of osama in the gold and white his mouth is also open at that time, and in his army gear his mount isn't open.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} and this one?

do you notice that this is the ONLY photo from that video you fools use? the video goes for ages, and yet one of your equally dishonest fuckwits figured they'd make much from them if they used this particular shot. were all the other al qaida members in the video imposters as well?

ive already posted a long and involved complete and utter debunking of the retarded "fat osama" theory, if you give a fuck you can search this thread for yourself. im not gonna bother with yet another disingenuous, uneducated tool.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 additionally, the picture of osama in the gold and white his mouth is also open at that time, and in his army gear his mount isn't open.

hahahahaha.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} and this one?

good point, i knew it couldn't be true, i guess the two in these pictures aren't the same person either (notice the double chin in the top and the sexy body in the bottom picture):






phewwwww....i was scared for a few years, since you've clearly shown us that a person's looks can never change, i can still have my high school fantasies about brittany.

i managed to find the article b.s.e.

how you like those apples?

here's another shot from that same video

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