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any attempts at explaining this are welcome:

if god is all knowing...that is, he knows what we do before we do it, before we are even born, then how is it that when he creates us we have free will? seems to me very contradictory. if he knows someone is going to hell before they even are conceived, why even bother have that person be born? sorry,i tend to ramble on this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by The Peach any attempts at explaining this are welcome: if god is all knowing...that is, he knows what we do before we do it, before we are even born, then how is it that when he creates us we have free will? seems to me very contradictory. if he knows someone is going to hell before they even are conceived, why even bother have that person be born? sorry,i tend to ramble on this topic.

I have a long responce to that, I will try and keep it short.

First I would like to say I am not religous in any way.
I believe that man kind is mistaken about what is God.

IMO, the God that our soul returns to is not the same as the god who talked to Moses or Abraham, if you are a Christian or Jewish.

I believe that the God that gives life will not subject himself to the laws of this universe we live in.

You are the one that records the events in your life and you will be the one to pass judgement on yourself when you go back, and the same with everybody else.

The fact thay say that God is all seeing and all knowing (omnipresent) is just another humans opinion.

"Free will"

IMO
He gave it to us because we need to mature as spirits. I don't think he wants us to be children forever.
IMO
Everything you do here on Earth is a lesson.

I know this is really REDUNDANT, but since the conversation here hasn't devolved to the 9th circle of Flaming, I am thankful. A few things I generally keep in mind is stuff like the following:

-can we figure out God? well, can ants figure out us? can we teach birds quantum physics? how come dogs can hear sounds we can't?

-spirituality is personal. one can never fully express his/her/its views. you can try, but all human languages are flawed.

-oh, and for that matter, translating some ideas from, say, ancient Greek and Hebrew comes off really badly in modern tongues. worse than Engrish. really.

-with consequently greater levels of intellectualism, the potential opportunities to poke and prod at loopholes increases exponentially. or maybe linearly. but it definitely increases. big words make for big arguments

-"Joan of Arcadia". i recommend it. it's a show about spirituality that isn't narrowminded and doesn't judge. a lot of fun.

-it's human arrogance to try to grasp things they don't even begin to understand. sometimes this is a good arrogance. sometimes, as in the case of religious wars and chomping on cultural differences and rabid imperialism, it is not.

-one person's God is another person's Dog.

-one person's "intelligent design" is another person's "Uno!"

-no one ever lost out being a good humanist first. i don't get what's with religious types who are cruel to other people. i don't relate... at ALL.

-whatever your beliefs are, if you're nice to me, i'll do my darndest to be nice to you. and if you're not nice to me, it's gonna be harder but i'll still try. that's a promise

-life's hard as it is and there is enough pain and suffering in the world as it stands.

This thread is not in accordance with the Tao.

I don�t really follow any specific religion by the book, however, my beliefs are based upon the fundamentals of Catholicism since that is how I was raised (got my first communion and confirmation in the Catholic church). I guess you could say I believe that there is a God and a son of god who died for our sins. I believe there is a better place after life that goes on for an eternity. There are so many unexplained phenomenons out there that can�t be "coincidental" in my eyes. I believe there is someone watching over us, and "testing" us, so to speak. That is why there are so many temptations out there and evil in the world. I think there are way too many politics in every religion though, so I chose to title myself as "Spiritual". I believe everyone should be forgiving, and I think everyone should just do their part in the world, and try not to sin in a sinful world. I think only truly evil people will suffer in the end...people who don�t want to be forgiven.

As far as evolution is concerned...yes, there have been lots of scientific facts that lead to that theory, but who�s to say that evolution isn�t God�s work?

And for people who go through life claiming that religion and "God" are a bunch of bullshit and say that they don�t believe in anything like that, are most likely using that as an excuse to lead a life of sin and not feel guilty about it. That�s just my opinion. I think everyone should have God in their life.

I think that yes, our bodies (the physical aspect) die when it�s our time, but we all have "souls" that make up our unique personality. I think our souls leave the body and go wherever they�re supposed to after our bodies die

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Originally posted by Slylee I was raised (got my first communion and confirmation in the Catholic church). I guess you could say I believe that there is a God and a son of god who died for our sins.

You forgot to mention you believe in ghosts
"The Father, Son and the Holy ghost"

Where did you get your 2nd communion? Is it comparable to a Masters degree?

I DO believe in ghosts

I think the fundamental problem here is that scientists cant prove or disprove God so they ignore it. It isnt in the realm they deal with. Then religious people say that science proves it. Which isnt true. Secularism has its claims to Big Bang and Evolution. Which are valid claims. Religion has God, Creationism, Guiding Spirits, etc. The issue as far as I have seen it is not from "You should believe what I believe" (although this is sometimes the excuse that is given). It tends to stem from attacking eachothers foundation for the belief.

This book was written by whoever, that animal didnt exist, this number is incorrect.

What people seem to be failing to recognize is that the belief preceeded the explanation. Half of you people seem to ignore the fact that this very question has been debated for several THOUSAND years, and I guarantee you arent thinking of anything so ground breaking that it will cause someone to not believe in God or not believe in Science.

It comes down to "People believe what they believe because that is what they want to believe"

Im not saying that there cant be very strong supports under the belief, but if this was a house if you knocked down all of the walls, the roof would still be floating if you know what I mean.

When you ask people why they believe in God why they REALLY believe it always comes down to "This world is too amazing and I feel too connected to believe that this was all a cosmic dice toss" or something similar. Conversely secularists will say "The idea of some spirit from another dimension somehow creating all life and judging us is ridiculous". In my life I have never heard someone say the core reason for God is that in 1992 gamma ray bursts showed conclusively that... or whatever.

Sometimes the twisting of a statement or someone just posting wildly concocted ideas or logic will bring bursts of annoyances and people start picking apart the stupid shit that doesnt really matter in the end.

Why do people believe in God? Because they believe in God. You philosophy majors can try to argue that logic as well, but logic doesnt rule human actions in the least bit.

So thats what it comes down to in my mind. Ive talked to a lot of people over the last 5 years and been in many a conversation and thats what it always comes down to.

Now...whether or not we can teach you younguns to be civil about it all and *respect* the conclusion people have come to is the hard part.

well the basics of religion start with "Faith". that's the whole point of it. so everyone who is bitching to the believers to "prove it", that's defeating the whole purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Why do people believe in God? Because they believe in God.

People believe in god to:
1. Explain the unknown.
2. Give them a purpose in life.
3. Give hope there is life after death.

And the most important reason is we are taught to do so from birth. There isn't any god gene that makes it natural for us to believe in god.

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Originally posted by igottaknow And the most important reason is we are taught to do so from birth. There isn't any god gene that makes it natural for us to believe in god.

of course this is the largest reason that religions are so popular. anything you learned from your parents you should question because chances are...you're smarter then them hehehe...

Also on a sidenote, I believe the reason why science has become the battleground for God these days is because in school we are taught that God is inconsequential (Not that he doesnt exist, because most science teachers have learned to say that science cant prove or disprove it so it isnt dealt with) in this world that is ruled by science. Then there isnt any kind of religious studies or philosophy courses that require a background in that.

The cyclops that our educational system has become is pretty insulting. I love science. If it wasnt for math I would be shooting for a Bachelor of Science degree. But I also am heavy into philosophy and psychology and spiritual studies as well. I think its part of being a well rounded person. You can specialize in something, but should also have a solid base without having to revert to Google every time someone asks you a question.

Anyways. my point is that many people are upset about the one sidedness of education. Seems to put a heavy emphasis on being secular. and with school until college being a baby sitter, and many parents working, the schools are raising the kids, not the parents, and thus not necessarily being imbued with the value system the parents wish.

I just find it disturbing that people really arent being given enough information to make their own choices. For all the people screaming about free choice and the government needs to back off, I find it slightly ironic they dont do shit to change the fundamental component of the system.

As I see it people can either stop shitting out kids they cant afford, or take the time to raise their kids the way they want WITH enough time in there to make that a realistic goal. I just dont think it would be that big of a deal after that. I have had to write papers on evolution and yada yada but you can always throw in some of the criticisms or whatever as well. It usually makes for a better paper to be aware of the potential flaws in your arguments instead of having someone else point them out anway. Didn't bother me though. Ive had to write on stupider subjects. Much stupider. You dont see anyone bitching about how wrong it is to write about House on Mango Street or some other bullshit "contemporary" classic.

The focus on liberal, poorly written, racially loaded books with *if youre lucky* homosexuality and paganism thrown in is messed up. But that is a totally different rant hehe.

I think it stems from the shadows on the cave wall idea and both sides are trying to show that there is another reality outside, and both refuse to even take a look.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow People believe in god to: 1. Explain the unknown. 2. Give them a purpose in life. 3. Give hope there is life after death. And the most important reason is we are taught to do so from birth. There isn't any god gene that makes it natural for us to believe in god.

Whatever your reason from 1, 2, or 3 are you saying its a bad thing they should stop and "come around" to the secular camp?

I also believe that people choose from category 4, 5, 6 and beyond by having life experiences that can only be explained to them by God or they suddenly feel a connection that they can only define as God. Or something. I think boiling God down to a "people are lonely and lost they need a guiding friend" is a rather insulting perspective on the human condition.

orbax, do you believe in god or science? i can't tell...i also couldn't read everything in the thread cuz i just tuned in and don't really feel like reading it all.

Ive been a Christian for about four years now. I was raised with religion generically, but in eleventh grade I started thinking about life and what not and decided to get educated on a variety of different beliefs. Christianity (lit: Little Christ) seemed to click with me. I've been a much happier calmer person the further I have progressed. It has given me goals to work towards and so forth. Im in the camp of having my life changed by Christ. It took my anger and hate away, but I had to ask for it. I've been very pleased with my relationship with God.

I am not a church going Christian (not many younguns are these days) but the way I see it, a church should be a place where an educated Christian and an uneducated Christian can get the same thing out of it: community and fellowship. Church these days seems to be a big Bible study. and then you leave.

I want to get to know people better. However, the local churches have no college age groups for me to join and the nearest one that does is an hour away. So more often than not Ill climb a mountain and catch a sunrise and thank God for everything there instead of church.

I also love science. It explains much of this universe to us and gives us great hope and opportunity for betterment. The more I know the more I am amazed. Its brain candy and, to me, makes me realize what a genius the Creator is. The first thing I think to myself when I see stuff on micro levels is "man this thing looks designed". Which is a logical fallacy and all, but thats what I think.

Pretty much the only bone I have to pick with science is that people try to use it to disprove God...which totally doesnt make sense.

Personally I believe they go hand in hand, and that any kind of understanding about who, what ,when,where, and why we are here can do nothing but bring us closer to God, our Creator.

My unifying philosophy behind science and contemporary religion and God and everything is rather long winded and digresses into many areas, so I think Ill just leave it as what Ive said thus far hehe.

so you are kinda like a born again christian?


i'm sorta like you, only i'm not as educated about the different religions...and i suck at any sort of high school/college level math. math and science go hand in hand, so i'm not too bright when it comes to those subjects. i'm always fascinated by them though. i'm better at english comp/writing and psychology, or anything that has to do with human behavior and understanding it.

quote:

Originally posted by Slylee well the basics of religion start with "Faith". that's the whole point of it. so everyone who is bitching to the believers to "prove it", that's defeating the whole purpose.

That pretty much sums up my problem with Christianity. If you don't base your beliefs on the evidence - then you really shouldn't hold those beliefs. As soon as you're required to have 'faith', IMO you should leave that belief behind. Faith is pretty much believing something without having any evidence to back it up - and in my mind, that's never a good thing.

You could have faith that children are in fact demons from another realm, and that it�s your duty to immediately slaughter them. Absurd, yes � but it would be just as valid as Christianity if all it has to rest on is blind faith.

quote:

Originally posted by Slylee As far as evolution is concerned...yes, there have been lots of scientific facts that lead to that theory, but who�s to say that evolution isn�t God�s work?

Absolutely nothing, hell - even the RCC accepts evolution, and they're notoriously slow when it comes to science (Galileo anyone?).

quote:

And for people who go through life claiming that religion and "God" are a bunch of bullshit and say that they don�t believe in anything like that, are most likely using that as an excuse to lead a life of sin and not feel guilty about it. That�s just my opinion. I think everyone should have God in their life.

Come on, that's an absurd thing to say. Ever thought that perhaps they don't believe in god because they simply don't think he exists? Just as you believe, they disbelieve. You also seem to be implying that atheists all deliberately lead lives of sin. Firstly, it's important to note that sin is a Christian concept, and as such - people who don't believe in god in India for instance (where the main religions are Jainism, Sikhism & Hinduism) probably don't even know what sin is, so I don't know how they could not believe in god to avoid something they don't even know exists. Humanism is another pertinent example - assuming that you know what it is, in what way are avowed humanists in any way evil or 'sinful'?

Many atheists are far more moral than Christians - any suggestion to the contrary should be backed up by the evidence - sadly, they generally aren't.

But yeah, isn't this an ancient thread? What's with the resurrection?

quote:

Originally posted by arctic But yeah, isn't this an ancient thread? What's with the resurrection?

Yeah I find it annoying losers have no original ideas of their own bump up ancient threads. Only god knows why

btw, good post glad you said it. I don't like to waste my time arguing with faith based ppl because its impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who rejects logic.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was an old thread. I don't exactly read the dates on all of them. and don't u guys flame people for posting stuff that has alredy been discussed? which is it?? lol


I didn't mean to generalize and say that all atheists are sinful. I know a lot of them have morals and stuff. That's just my opinion on the few that I have actually met. I think some people who reject religion are intimidated by the fact that there is a higher power and that we have to actually be good people and not just do whatever the hell we want in life. Of course there are the ones who just don't believe in it...simple as that.

I'm not going to go back and forth, because this is just something I chose to believe in, I'm not trying to force anyone to believe it either.


And I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and act like I am better or above the people in here who don't believe in religion, or get annoyed that they are "rejecting faith".

quote:

Originally posted by Slylee Sorry, I didn't realize it was an old thread. I don't exactly read the dates on all of them. and don't u guys flame people for posting stuff that has alredy been discussed? which is it?? lol

There are no hard and fast rules but bumping up old threads is an annoying theme that has been gaining momentum this year. It's stupid to resurrect a giant, ancient thread where the majority of the members who participtated in it are no longer active. What's the point who's going to read through 14 pages of posts from ppl the don't know? Sure posting a new Headphone thread every week can get a little redundent, but bumping old shit up, takes the cake.

I do beleive in God (NOT the Bible's God)...i am a Deist.

I just can not fathom how educated people in the 21st century still beleive in the Bible. This is a book littered with murder, rape, slavery, incest, child abuse, child killings, monsters, goblins, ghosts, people walking on water and splitting seas, snakes that eat dust, the devil, angels, eating your children, mass murder, child abuse, burning people, chopping off heads, hands, feet, ears, plucking out eyes. torture, damnation, Jesus being born without a natural father (virgin birth), resurections, the second coming, the world ending, in a battle at Armageddon between Christ and the Antichrist, dragons, unicorns, fiery serpents, the supernatural and countless other absurd, and for the most deranged, things...all of this in by God.

Sorry but �MY� God (who is not the Bible God) is incapable of such misery producing acts as the extermination of men, women, children and I do not attribute human qualities to God and reject those teachings that depicts our Creator as a homicidal maniac who drowns the world in floods (Genesis), kills children just to punish somebody else (Exodus), or presents our Creator as a fool to be outwitted by a mythical serpent. I have more logic and reason then that.

I mean would you still believe the Bible if it said a 3 legged leprachaun gave birth to a smurf, so to slay the dragons in the moat around satan�s home?�In all seriousness if you ACTUALLY read the Bible and stop being sheep you WILL see just how profoundly insane one must be to actually believe what they are reading, with all of the education available. One would simply have to be so blinded by unquestioning faith not to believe (which is sillyin the first place) or be in a state with absolute no logic and reason.





�Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood.�
-- George Carlin


"Faith is believing in what you know ain't true."
--Mark Twain


"It appears to me that all churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, are simply human inventions. They use fear to enslave us. They are a monopoly for power and profit."
--Thomas Paine

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 I do beleive in God (NOT the Bible's God)...i am a Deist. I just can not fathom how educated people in the 21st century still beleive in the Bible. This is a book littered with murder, rape, slavery, incest, child abuse, child killings, monsters, goblins, ghosts, people walking on water and splitting seas, snakes that eat dust, the devil, angels, eating your children, mass murder, child abuse, burning people, chopping off heads, hands, feet, ears, plucking out eyes. torture, damnation, Jesus being born without a natural father (virgin birth), resurections, the second coming, the world ending, in a battle at Armageddon between Christ and the Antichrist, dragons, unicorns, fiery serpents, the supernatural and countless other absurd, and for the most deranged, things...all of this in by God. Sorry but �MY� God (who is not the Bible God) is incapable of such misery producing acts as the extermination of men, women, children and I do not attribute human qualities to God and reject those teachings that depicts our Creator as a homicidal maniac who drowns the world in floods (Genesis), kills children just to punish somebody else (Exodus), or presents our Creator as a fool to be outwitted by a mythical serpent. I have more logic and reason then that. I mean would you still believe the Bible if it said a 3 legged leprachaun gave birth to a smurf, so to slay the dragons in the moat around satan�s home?�In all seriousness if you ACTUALLY read the Bible and stop being sheep you WILL see just how profoundly insane one must be to actually believe what they are reading, with all of the education available. One would simply have to be so blinded by unquestioning faith not to believe (which is sillyin the first place) or be in a state with absolute no logic and reason. �Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit! I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood.� -- George Carlin "Faith is believing in what you know ain't true." --Mark Twain "It appears to me that all churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, are simply human inventions. They use fear to enslave us. They are a monopoly for power and profit." --Thomas Paine

first let me say that i agree with a lot of what you just said as i'm not religious at all, but the religious response to what you just said would be that the bible is not a TRUE story, but an alegory meant to teach those that follow it.

quote:

Originally posted by Slylee I didn't mean to generalize and say that all atheists are sinful. I know a lot of them have morals and stuff. That's just my opinion on the few that I have actually met. I think some people who reject religion are intimidated by the fact that there is a higher power and that we have to actually be good people and not just do whatever the hell we want in life. Of course there are the ones who just don't believe in it...simple as that.

That's fine. Interestingly, my experiences have been the complete opposite to yours - most of the nutters and people who I honestly can't stomach have been Christians or Muslims - the atheists I�ve met have generally been great people. When it comes down to it though, you get idiots who believe in god and idiots who don't - it's a mixed bag on both sides of the fence. There are different 'types' of atheists, just as there are different types of theists. Try comparing an objectivist to an atheist Buddhist, or a fundamentalist Muslim to a Hindu like Ghandi. I suppose I�m just trying to say that generalizations usually fail - even when I�m the one making them.

This is pretty much what I believe/adhere to if you or anyone else is interested.

quote:

And I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and act like I am better or above the people in here who don't believe in religion, or get annoyed that they are "rejecting faith".

Likewise, I�ve usually got no issue with religious people or religion in general - I only get riled up when people try and pass legislation that's based on their religious beliefs (banning gay marriage, banning stem cell research etc).

all i've ever wanted was for someone to give me a good reason to believe in religion other then faith. it's impossible. faith is such a cop out. i didn't read this whole thread because it's waaaaay too long, but in all the threads like this i've participated in, never can any religious person give me a good reason...it always comes back to faith. which leads me to believe that if the only justification you have for your beliefs is a faith learned from childhood, then how can you not question them?

quote:

Originally posted by arctic Likewise, I�ve usually got no issue with religious people or religion in general - I only get riled up when people try and pass legislation that's based on their religious beliefs (banning gay marriage, banning stem cell research etc).

just to set the record straight, in no way am i "religious". i just happen to be aware of God and i'm pretty spiritual. i sin every day, but i try to be a good person. "sin" meaning pre marital sex with my boyfriend, white lies, smoke pot...the usual. i'm not a bad person though, just a product of society like all of us. i try to rise above most of the every day sins that people do unconciously, like greed, resentment, envy...all of those every day feelings are considered a sin. like to me, a guy who is rich enough to buy a small country, yet keeps buying porsches, is a sin. you gotta do your part somehow.

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