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-- Religious debate on Jews/Passion of the Christ
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Originally posted by Renegade I've been following this debate for a while and it's just confirming what I've suspected for a long time. Without wishing to seem disrespectful to the theists on this board, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the cause of the "rationalists" and the "atheists" here is futile for one very simple reason: religious statements - across the board - are not statements of truth. No atheist (and we are all born atheists remember) ever enters any system of theological belief because, upon careful weighing of the evidence, he believes it to espouse irrefutable empirical, metaphysical or ontological fact. Nor are religious statements - as the theists would have us believe - statements of belief or faith. No-one submits themselves unquestioningly to an ideology because they have a "hunch" it might be true - no right thinking individual anyway. Given this it is futile to argue with a theist. Their ideology is not bound up in truth, nor with faith or belief - the subjective, bastard sisters of truth. If it were, the deconversion process - where an individual realises via objective, dispassionate scepticism - would be much more common and much less traumatic. But it is here, in the trauma of deconversion, that we uncover the true nature of religious statements - they are statements of hope, nothing more, nothing less. "I know that heaven exists" is not a statement of truth. "I believe that heaven exists" is not a statement of truth, nor is it a statement of well-founded or intractable belief. "I have faith in the validity of the Bible, in which God declares that heaven exists" is not a statement of truth, a statement of well-founded or intractable belief, nor a statement of dispassionate credulity. All these statements convey the same message with differing degrees of self-delusion, namely: "I hope that heaven exists". Therefore, theists do not find it difficult to rid themselves of theological beliefs because they are scared to compromise any facets of their tightly interwoven systems of truth, belief and faith (we shed held truisms, beliefs and faiths on a daily basis as we acquire new knowledge - however seemingly significant - into the world around us) but because they are scared to abandon the most primitive, yet perhaps the most important of all our psychological, systemtic processes: that is, the systemic process of hope. It's difficult to abandon the hope that we may have been created rather than evolved, that we may be able to live forever, that there may an omnibenevolent being forever watching over and guiding us, or that our life has some pre-ordained purpose - hence the trauma of the deconversion process and the unwillingness to truly delve into religious belief on a sincere epistemic, ontological or metaphysical level. Regardless of what intractable fact you sling at the theist, the religious beliefs will remain in tact simply because your not targeting the arguments at the right psychological schemata - the key to deconverting theists (not that I advocate proselytism of any sort - be it theistic or atheistic) lies not in undermining the empirical or logical evidence supporting the existence of a God, but rather in removing the dependancy on hope - the "emotional crutch" or "opiate" of the theist if you like - vested in this deity. Similarly I believe in religious Darwinism. The religions that most strongly cling to this formula are those most likely to survive. Any religion that encourages free-thought or open-scepticism, or any religion that bases its ideologies on issues of fact or epistemology - for instance - is likely to fail, simply because it renders itself open to falsification. The second doubt is cast on this sort of religion religion, its adherents abandon it, for they have no emotional stake in the preservation of its ideological intergrity. The religion most likely to survive, therefore, is the one its adherents are least likely to reject. Now as religions based on fact (and belief and - to a degree - faith) are easy to for its adherents to shed (just as more mudane "facts" and "beliefs" are shed in day-to-day life as we become privy to more knowledge) they cannot survive long. On the other hand, those religions capable of fostering hope and then creating an emotional dependancy on the preservation of this hope, are highly likely to survive (especially if this fostering of hope is coupled with the rejection of the validty of empirical knowledge - a la Islamo-Christian Avoerism - and a culture of credulity and anti-skepticism). In this context, a religion can only survive if it makes sure it establishes an emotional dependance within its adherent based on the baseless "hopes" of the latter. Christianity goes one step beyond this "Darwinism", however. In addition to latching onto generic, latent human hopes (hope of transcending death, hope of a greater purpose etc.) it creates its own need for "hope" by poking yet more holes in the human ego, creating an even greater need for hope and - from this - an inescapable emotional dependancy on its own theology, that cannot be satisfied by any other. I posted this on another forum: Christianity contains within itself a perfect circular mechanism - it makes man sick so that it may offer him the cure. If you are able to fully convince a man that he is debauched, weak and that he is a sinner against the rest of mankind from the point of his conception, then he is more likely to be susceptable to your promise of "salvation". However, once one accepts this salvation and the rest of the message Christianity prescribes, one simply retreats further into self-depreciation - man becomes yet more convinced of his evil nature and of his weakness and as he does so he becomes even more dependent on the salvation offered through Christ. From this point there is no going back: one cannot be so convinced of one's own debauched worthlessness and then expect to function without some hope for redemption. People find it difficult to stray from the flock because after accepting the disease (Christianity's pesimism concerning man-kind) the only cure comes in the form of a 2000 year old man wearing a robe and sandals. Thus the only way to help a Christian from his "cage", as Neitzsche put it, is not to convince him that God doesn't exist or that Jesus never rose from the dead (or any other argument of a metaphysical, empirical or logical nature), but merely to convince him that man-kind is not sick, it is not debauched, and that every one of us is a unique, free-thinking moral agent with the power to help and work for both himself and the rest of man-kind. Once a Christian is "rescued" from his self-depreciation - freed from his disease - all of a sudden the "cure" laid out in Christian theology no longer quite seems so appealing. He may never free himself from theism, but he will be free of his emotional dependence on theism and, as an atheist, I believe that that is the first step towards true redemption. After all, what good is the cure if you no longer have the disease?

So, the point of all this, finally, is to convince all you would be proselytising atheists/agnostics out there that religion is never going to be undermined by fact, but only by the erosion of the emotional dependancy that religion creates. Religion dies the second humanity realises it can be happy - and live productive, purposeful lives - without God and without heaven. In fact, I actually believe an atheistic universe to be preferable to a theistic one - from the same post:



No longer do I possess a prescribed essence. No longer am I a being "created" in the image of God. No longer can I blame God for my definiciencies or believe that the path towards correcting these definiciencies lies in God's hands alone. I am a being possessing free-will: I create myself, continually defining and redefinining who I am. We human beings often take it for granted that we are the only beings in the known universe - out of that virtually infinite expanse of matter - that possess this power - to define what we, in essense, are.

But we also possess another unique ability, which ties in with what I meant by "sensuality": namely, the ability to comprehend being both in-itself and for-itself. Extend your hand, flex your fingers about and think about all that this action means. Look at your fingers - that's you. Doesn't this seemingly small, meaningless action in itself inspire some significant, existential awe? That you are able - upon your very own whim - to extend your being out into the world and to act upon it as you wish? That you exist and that you have power to act directly upon your free-will? Go outside, then, and gaze up at the stars. Consider how frightfully huge the universe is, how much matter there must be and how virtually infinite the expanse of space must actually be. Then extend your hand out in front of your face and flex your fingers again: feel the air upon them and try to grasp exactly what it means to be and what it means to sense the world around you. Try to understand your role as an organism abandoned an an infinite, cold and dead universe. Consider your part in the incomprehensible span of space and time, then consider that none of this - not you, not the trees, not the universe, not anything - need exist at all. That the odds against you existing at this very moment are incomprehensively large and yet there you are. A being. In the universe. With the power to act as you wish.

Eternal life? Pah. Knowing that I needn't (and mathematically shouldn't) exist at all, and knowing that once day, in the not too distant future, I will never again be able to stand on my balcony with a cigarette, gazing up at the stars behind my extended hand - and to realise with morbid awe the intrinsic significance of this scenario - is all the impetus I need to ensure that I make all that I can from this life: that I make it full and meaningful and that I waste as little time as possible worrying about unobtainable dreams like "God" and "heaven". That I will, if all things go to plan, have lived for but 70 years wedged between two expanses of infinite nothingness is a miracle, when put in those terms, far greater than anything I could ever dream of encountering in heaven. But it is only the inevitability of this finality that infuses existence with its very purpose in the first place: death gives life meaning, an importance. The unattainable hope of eternal life merely dulls us to that which we should hold must dear in this life here and now - that we should be grateful every day for the short time we have received on Earth and it is up to we alone, as free-willed beings, to make what we can of it. Why would we take time to smell the roses if we had an eternity in heaven to do so?

Don't be decedant. Realise that you are here today and that you may not be here tomorrow. Understand this, and you'll understand why I'd find far more "comfort" living one day as an atheist than an eternity as a Christian.[/quote]

Religion will always exist in some form, but I still consider it important to make religious people realise that life has a very real and definite purpose even though God does not exist. Only in realising this can people become free from their suffocating dependency on religion and - in turn - appreciate the true, genuinely optimistic view of existence. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, gone on the weekends. This gets my post of the year, very well written.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.

- Isaac Asimov

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Originally posted by arctic I don't see a difference myself, but read into it what you will. Actually, I'm not entirely sure if you're joking or if you're being serious here. Stop confusing me.

she was talking about my case in particular, not speaking in general. get your facts straight before you start twisting comments around

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Originally posted by Heinz alyssa....DEBATE OR STFU!!!!!!!!!! PM me if u dont understand... If God did not exist, then our world as we know it, would tumble into chaos. what prevents this galaxy of milky way to collide into another, or our planet to be not pulled into the sun. the sun is bigger than all planets in the solar system combined, but yet we have an orbit, the same every year.

Thine words carry much wisdom good friend. But alas! From my superaureal senses, I have detected that thou has contracted a terrible malaise of Sanguine that has been transmuting through the aether all around us. If untreated, thine affliction shall surely render you lifeless.

Fortune doth smile upon you though. For whilst in my primary profession, I am one of the most skilled alchemists on middle Earth, I am a practiced physician on the side as well and I shall treat thee! I have expertly concluded that thine malaise is due to a preponderance of blood and yellow bile. Therefore we must void the body of the imbalanced humor! As we proceed we shall follow the teachings of the great Hippocrates, �What drugs will not cure, the knife will; what the knife will not cure, the cautery will; what the cautery will not cure must be considered incurable.� Only through careful use of drug induced vomiting, diarrhea, blood letting, and cauterization can we consume the excess humor!

Prithee, I am humbly a budding wizard of some prowess as well. If thou hast a mermaid scale or a dragon�s tongue I could construct a talisman that will increase thy sexual virility thricefold. No payment is necessary! For as one of the most esteemed alchemists in these lands I have grown quite wealthy from my practice.

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I could go on and on about darkness and light. take science out of this, because science proves nothing but the material physical world. it cant prove thought, existance, or logic. it measures the measurable. its proves what can be proved. if something has mathematical properties to it, it is scienctific. if no then it is not scientific. the bible is not a scientific book, therefore you cannot look at it as though you are a scientist. You people will never understand christianity or god, jesus, the bible, church. your eyes are closed. u are in darkness, and hate the light. do u know where your life is going?? in the dark, can you see where you are going?? no...you cannot. you dont know your future. but, in the light, can u not see where u walk?? in darkness, u know nothing but what u can touch. but you CANNOT SEE!! but few of you will understand what i have said....

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Originally posted by TranceGiant idiot

no sense of humor

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Again,freewill. It's what you choose. The only way to heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior into your heart. I do know some religious folk believe that good deeds get you into heaven..but, there's a verse in the Bible that says there's only one way,and that way is accepting Jesus into your heart. People can be very good,and do very good deeds,but that doesn't mean that they're permitted into heaven. I hope you get what I'm saying.

I'm surprised more people aren't jumping on this silliness.

Nessa, is it moral and/or just for a God to exclude those who have been good their entire lives yet merely fail to accept Jesus Christ while admitting a prolific sinner to heaven simply because he confesses his sins prior to death?

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Originally posted by occrider I'm surprised more people aren't jumping on this silliness.

I was just about to...

Nellie... your posts are making you look more pathetic every time. I cant beleive how adament you are at spewing out all this nonsense.

THERE IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO HEAVEN WITH GREAT GREEN FIELDS AND CANDY WITH PEOPLE AND KIDS PLAYING WITH LIONS!!!!!!!!

There is no evidence this exists... only faith created it. Stop speaking as if its the truth.

Unfortunately, none of us will know if it exists or not after we die because the neurons in our brains stop working!!!!!!!

WE ROT... eaten by bacteria...that is your "heaven"

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Originally posted by occrider I'm surprised more people aren't jumping on this silliness. Nessa, is it moral and/or just for a God to exclude those who have been good their entire lives yet merely fail to accept Jesus Christ while admitting a prolific sinner to heaven simply because he confesses his sins prior to death?

Again,God sent Jesus to die on the cross for us, so that none of us would have to go to hell. So, if people don't choose to accept him, that's their own fault. Not his. He won't interfere with freewill. You have to remeber that.

I've heard of many people making it right just before they pass on.Like my grandmother just did last month. That does happen a lot,because you are staring death right in the face.

But, it isn't silliness.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King I was just about to... Nellie... your posts are making you look more pathetic every time. I cant beleive how adament you are at spewing out all this nonsense. THERE IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO HEAVEN WITH GREAT GREEN FIELDS AND CANDY WITH PEOPLE AND KIDS PLAYING WITH LIONS!!!!!!!! There is no evidence this exists... only faith created it. Stop speaking as if its the truth. Unfortunately, none of us will know if it exists or not after we die because the neurons in our brains stop working!!!!!!! WE ROT... eaten by bacteria...that is your "heaven"

No, you're trampling all over my right to believe in it. You can believe what you want, go ahead it's not my problem. But, I can believe in what I want..and say it's real,just as you say it's fake.
Talk about intolerant.

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Originally posted by arctic I don't see a difference myself, but read into it what you will. Actually, I'm not entirely sure if you're joking or if you're being serious here. Stop confusing me.

It's simple. Read my words carefully.
Those who do not believe in God, or believe there is a God, they are not Christians. Christians are those who praise and worship God,and are those who have accepted Jeuss into their hearts.

How can you be a Christian ( Which means CHRIST like ) If you don't even believe God,or Jesus Christ existed?

I don't know how you don't understand this. It's very simple.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Again,God sent Jesus to die on the cross for us, so that none of us would have to go to hell. So, if people don't choose to accept him, that's their own fault. Not his. He won't interfere with freewill. You have to remeber that. I've heard of many people making it right just before they pass on.Like my grandmother just did last month. That does happen a lot,because you are staring death right in the face. But, it isn't silliness.

I don't think this answered his question, so let me rephrase it as an example:

Why does God allow rapists and serial murderers to enter into Heaven if they willfully (and truly) feel repentance, but yet will not allow a dutiful Buddhist who's done nothing but contribute his life to the well-being of mankind?

IOW, if this is true, why would we all need to live a civil life when all we need to do is willfully and truly give our lives to Jesus at the very last moment of death, but prior to that we can rape, pillage, murder, and chop up anyone we see fit (kinda like some folks in the Old Testament, Judges 19:22-30?)

Nessa answer me this:

Two missionaries are out in Africa, the first missionary only helps those who belief in his faith ... even if they are wicked at the expense of those who are innocent and deserving of help such as children. The second missionary helps those who are deserving of help the most - the sickest, those in abject poverty, those who are simply trying to lead good lives. He is concerned with their health and helps them without question and then, only after they have benefited from his aid, teaches them about the Lord.

Who is the better samaritan?

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I don't think this answered his question, so let me rephrase it as an example: Why does God allow rapists and serial murderers to enter into Heaven if they willfully (and truly) feel repentance, but yet will not allow a dutiful Buddhist who's done nothing but contribute his life to the well-being of mankind? IOW, if this is true, why would we all need to live a civil life when all we need to do is willfully and truly give our lives to Jesus at the very last moment of death, but prior to that we can rape, pillage, murder, and chop up anyone we see fit (kinda like some folks in the Old Testament, Judges 19:22-30?)

I did answer his question.Maybe he just didn't like my answer.
God allows all those who have asked Jesus Christ into their heart,and repented of their sins.

Good deeds,Don't get you into heaven. do you understand that?

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Originally posted by occrider Nessa answer me this: Two missionaries are out in Africa, the first missionary only helps those who belief in his faith ... even if they are wicked at the expense of those who are innocent and deserving of help such as children. The second missionary helps those who are deserving of help the most - the sickest, those in abject poverty, those who are simply trying to lead good lives. He is concerned with their health and helps them without question and then, only after they have benefited from his aid, teaches them about the Lord. Who is the better samaritan?

Read the above, Then you'll have your answer.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Good deeds,Don't get you into heaven. do you understand that?

i would rather rot in hell than go to heaven with a god that denies people of good merrit, simply because they do not believe in jesus.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Again,God sent Jesus to die on the cross for us, so that none of us would have to go to hell. So, if people don't choose to accept him, that's their own fault. Not his. He won't interfere with freewill. You have to remeber that.

i have a question. Do you believe that God know everything that has ever happened, and everything that will happen? Because, if he does, then that means that your destiny is predetermined. Which means that every movement you make God knew you would do before hand. Which means that free will is just an illusion.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 I did answer his question.Maybe he just didn't like my answer. God allows all those who have asked Jesus Christ into their heart,and repented of their sins. Good deeds,Don't get you into heaven. do you understand that?

Yes. Thank you. So I guess I can go ahead and murder, rape, and cut up into pieces innocent people as long as I accept Jesus some time before I die. Cool. I guess I DO actually like this Christian God afterall. I mean, if he allows men to do it to innocent concubines like they did in Judges 19:22-30, why can't I?

Yea Christianity!

9/10 Criminals prefer christianity

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Originally posted by tathi 9/10 Criminals prefer christianity

because it looks good to their probation officer

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yes. Thank you. So I guess I can go ahead and murder, rape, and cut up into pieces innocent people as long as I accept Jesus some time before I die. Cool. I guess I DO actually like this Christian God afterall. I mean, if he allows men to do it to innocent concubines like they did in Judges 19:22-30, why can't I? Yea Christianity!

No,that's not what it means.
10 commandments, and it's not just those that set down rules/laws.
God doesn't want you doing those things. Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to.

God will forgive you of your sins, but He also doesn't want you committing them. Further more, God knows your heart.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Good deeds,Don't get you into heaven. do you understand that?

LOL yes. I would love to hear what jesus would say about this. What a compassionate God the "christian" God is . I would rather rot an enternity in hell with the people who do good rather than stand the stench of hypocrisy in a "utopian" heaven surrounded by murderers, pedophiles, and rapists who sell out their beliefs to escape damnation. It's nothing but an overglorified system of bribery. Rather pathetic actually that people think like this since a morally just and "good" God is antagonistic to this behaviour.

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LOL yes. I would love to hear what jesus would say about this. What a compassionate God the "christian" God is . I would rather rot an enternity in hell with the people who do good rather than stand the stench of hypocrisy in a "utopian" heaven surrounded by murderers, pedophiles, and rapists who sell out their beliefs to escape damnation. It's nothing but an overglorified system of bribery. Rather pathetic actually that people think like this since a morally just and "good" God is antagonistic to this behaviour.

u have no idea of the concept of god's mercy. u havnt the faintest clue. jesus died for OUR SIN. SO THAT WE COULD BECOME RIGHTEOUS. because only the righteous are allowed into heaven. sin is sin. unlike humans, god views all sin the same, as equal. therefore, lying is the same as murder, to god. that is why ANYONE CAN BECOME SAVED. this was the exact arguement between the pharisees and jesus. the pharisees doctrine was to judge people based on the seriousness of their sin, which u are indirectly saying in this post. but jesus's message was for EVERYONE. the sick, healthy, poor, and rich, criminal, or law-abiding citizen. it doesnt matter who you are, or what u have done, if u accept jesus as your lord, and personal savior, savior from sin, hell, then your plate is wiped clean...u are reborn, from your sinful, hopeless, lost living, to the hope of eternal life. something we all should look forward.

instead you only look forward to the present, and the next 60 some years of your life, god-willing. if u live to be 80 year old. great!! im glad thats all you worry about!! but i have my future already made. and its not for the next 80 years. its for the next 80 years, and the next 80 years, and the next 80 years, x10, x100, x10000, 100000, x.infinite. and there is such thing as infinite, it is proven in the science of black holes.

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
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READ NEXT POST

I want all of you to think long and hard about this passage. long AND hard.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

one day, if still you have not accepted the reality of god, one day u will. he will be revealed to you, right in front of you. as u wanted. u will SEE him, TALK to him, FEEL him, HEAR him. that will be your proof. u want science, u want evidence, u want this and that. YOU WILL GET SOMETHING EVEN BETTER THAN THAT!! u will see him right there in front of you, in your face, asking u what. what to what? u will find out.

i give u evidence. from the bible. and thats the only evidence i need. ask me any question and i bet u, i will have a response directly from the bible. so dont get mad, because i have ONE SOURCE thats the most crediable source living man has in its precious possession.
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My challenge for you is to ask me any logical, intelligent question, anything pertaining to the subject. and i will answer you from the bible. not from myself, or from any human being. and i want you to know. the bible isnt a "book" it is the Word of God. when i quote the bible, that is the literal speaking of god. the bible is god "speaking to you" believe it or not.

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one day, if still you have not accepted the reality of god, one day u will. he will be revealed to you, right in front of you. as u wanted. u will SEE him, TALK to him, FEEL him, HEAR him. that will be your proof. u want science, u want evidence, u want this and that. YOU WILL GET SOMETHING EVEN BETTER THAN THAT!! u will see him right there in front of you, in your face, asking u what. what to what? u will find out.

i'm talking to god face to face now, in fact i'll let him write a couple of words to you

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Originally Posted by God You are an indoctrinated fool

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Originally posted by occrider LOL yes. I would love to hear what jesus would say about this. What a compassionate God the "christian" God is . I would rather rot an enternity in hell with the people who do good rather than stand the stench of hypocrisy in a "utopian" heaven surrounded by murderers, pedophiles, and rapists who sell out their beliefs to escape damnation. It's nothing but an overglorified system of bribery. Rather pathetic actually that people think like this since a morally just and "good" God is antagonistic to this behaviour.

Fine,you can go to hell in a handbasket,but I'm not going with you. It's your choice what happens to your soul,but I warn you. Choose wisely, Despite what you think. I do care what happens to you,and everyone here.

It's not hypocrisy. Sin is sin,my friend. There is no,Big sin,no little sin. It's just the consequence for each sin is different.
Trust me,each person will pay for every sin they've committed. One way,or another. Personally,I don't care how long it takes a person to realize they need the Lord. If it has to be on their death bed,then so be it. But, I pray they get to heaven.

God is good,God is fair. Life isn't fair,I think you are getting the two mixed up here. If you ask for forgiveness for your sins,God will forgive you. Of course,you must learn from your mistake,that's very important.

But, The fact of the matter here is. Good deeds will not get you to heaven.It's only by the saving grace of God you'll get to heaven.

There's an old saying "The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions " ever heard it?
We all sin, we're all sinners. But, it's a matter of if you learn from those mistakes,and ask for forgiveness.

I hope you really read what I'm saying,and really think about it here before it's to late.

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Originally posted by tathi i'm talking to god face to face now, in fact i'll let him write a couple of words to you

Of course we all know this is fake. Mainly, because you can't look God in the face. It's not possible,we're way to unholy.

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