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Originally posted by Krypton Reductio ad Hitlerum Reductio ad Hitlerum, dog Latin for "reduction (or argument) to Adolf Hitler (or the Nazis)", is a modern informal fallacy in logic. Reductio ad Hitlerum is rationally unsound for two different reasons: As a wrong direction fallacy (a type of questionable cause), it inverts the cause�effect relationship between why a villain and an idea might be criticized; conversely, as guilt by association (a form of association fallacy), it illogically attempts to shift culpability from a villain to an idea regardless of who is espousing it and why. Specific instances of reductio ad Hitlerum are also frequently likely to suffer from the fallacy of begging the question or take the form of slippery slope arguments, which are frequently (though not always) false as well.

First, it says on wiki that the logic fallacy assumes the form of "Hitler supported/promoted/had/was identified by X, so X must be evil". I don't understand how's that has anything to do with negating Jake Benson's argument.

Second, here's something I came across the web: http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=8be7a14d.flv

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby The Natives in the US got casinos... what are the Israelis going to give the people of Palestine?

well, they (israel) already gave palaestine quite a bit of land that was highly important to them. didn't they?

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Reductio ad Hitlerum Reductio ad Hitlerum, dog Latin for "reduction (or argument) to Adolf Hitler (or the Nazis)", is a modern informal fallacy in logic. Reductio ad Hitlerum is rationally unsound for two different reasons: As a wrong direction fallacy (a type of questionable cause), it inverts the cause�effect relationship between why a villain and an idea might be criticized; conversely, as guilt by association (a form of association fallacy), it illogically attempts to shift culpability from a villain to an idea regardless of who is espousing it and why. Specific instances of reductio ad Hitlerum are also frequently likely to suffer from the fallacy of begging the question or take the form of slippery slope arguments, which are frequently (though not always) false as well.

the analogy in question does not qualify to any of the terms of that fallacy. i was considering using that very same analogy myself earlier, but decided not to because i easily came up with an equivalent one that doesn't evoke godwin's law.

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Originally posted by Psy-T imagine your neighbouring country voted for an organization whose primary purpose is the destruction of your country. how should your country (or the world at large) react?

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Different on many levels. Hamas is a bunch of punks that shoot home made rockets that hardly do anything to Israel. They aren't rolling over Poland and into Belgium and France nor could they ever do anything like that to Israel.

while they don't have the same amount of resources germany enjoyed during the holocaust and the second world war, they're almost identical in purpose of domination, all it takes to understand that is to read the hamas' charter.

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Originally posted by Psy-T while they don't have the same amount of resources germany enjoyed during the holocaust and the second world war, they're almost identical in purpose of domination, all it takes to understand that is to read the hamas' charter.

* Hamas is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood (Art. 2);
* Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7);
* Jihad is the path of Hamas, and death for Allah its most sublime belief (Art. 8);
* The land of Palestine is an Islamic inheritance (Art. 11);
* All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12);
* Peace is not an option (Art. 13);
* Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to liberate Palestine (Art. 14);
* Muslims must study the enemy, looking for weak spots (Art. 16);
* Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17)
* Women must train their children to become Jihad fighters (Art. 18);
* Enemies rule the world through intermediaries such as the United Nations (Art. 22);
* The PLO is too secular (Art. 27);
* All Arab states must support Jihad (Art. 28);
* All Muslim leaders must support Jihad (Art. 30);
* Hamas cares about human rights and religious toleration, provided all other religions live in the shadow of Islam (Art. 31);
* Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32);
* Jihad will not end until liberation is complete (Art. 33); and
* Palestine is the navel of the earth and Jihad is our answer to the Christian Crusades (Art. 34).

A new low today for Hamas... after I didn't think that was possible. Get this- now they are setting up emergency clinics for their own (Hamas members), and stealing the medical supplies that ISRAEL is sending to Gaza to aid the citizens of Gaza. Fucking parasites.


While there is no doubt that Israel does this for political purposes (everything a nation does has political motivations), they also do it because Israelis would like to live in real peace with their neighbors. There is an underlying truth to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be no war, but if the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

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Originally posted by The17sss A new low today for Hamas... after I didn't think that was possible. Get this- now they are setting up emergency clinics for their own (Hamas members), and stealing the medical supplies that ISRAEL is sending to Gaza to aid the citizens of Gaza. Fucking parasites. While there is no doubt that Israel does this for political purposes (everything a nation does has political motivations), they also do it because Israelis would like to live in real peace with their neighbors. There is an underlying truth to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be no war, but if the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

Hey man, as long as they do it in the name of Allah all is forgiven.

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Originally posted by The17sss There is an underlying truth to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be no war, but if the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

There is no such thing as "no war".

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On

ahoy landlubber
been a while

ARHHHHHH!

Great to see you posting again.

...and guess who'll get the blame...

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Israel shells near UN school, killing at least 30 By IBRAHIM BARZAK and STEVE WEIZMAN, Associated Press Writers 19 mins ago GAZA CITY, Gaza � Israeli mortar shells struck outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people � many of them children whose parents wailed in grief at a hospital filled with dead and wounded. The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area. Despite international criticism over civilian deaths and a diplomatic push to broker a cease-fire, Israeli said it would push on with the offensive against Hamas. Israeli ground forces edged closer to two major Gaza towns, and a total of 70 Palestinians were killed Tuesday � with just two confirmed as militants, health officials in Gaza said. A top U.N. official called for an investigation into the civilian death toll. Past Israeli ground offensives have been cut short when an errant shell or missile hit a civilian center, leading to international outcries that forced Israel to stand down. The shelling Tuesday in the northern town of Jebaliya marked the second time in hours a U.N. school came under attack; three people were killed in an attack on another U.N. school in Gaza City on Monday night. Tuesday's assault was the deadliest since Israel sent ground forces into Gaza last weekend as part of a larger offensive against Hamas that has killed more than 600 Palestinians, according to local hospital officials. Nearly half of the dead are civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian officials. "There's nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized," John Ging, the top U.N. official in Gaza, said after the Monday night attack on the compound of a U.N. school. The school has served as a shelter for refugees fleeing the 11-day offensive. A Palestinian rocket � one of two dozen fired from Gaza on Tuesday � wounded an Israeli infant. Dr. Bassam Abu Warda, director of Kamal Adwan Hospital, said 36 people were killed in the Israeli strike on the U.N. school in Jebaliya. The United Nations confirmed 30 were killed and 55 injured by tank shells. In a statement, the Israeli army said an initial investigation found that "mortar shells were fired from within the school at IDF soldiers. The force responded with mortars at the source of fire. The Hamas cynically uses civilians as human shields." The army said two Hamas militants � Imad Abu Askar and Hasan Abu Askar � were among the dead. Two neighborhood residents confirmed the Israeli account, saying a group of militants fired mortars from a street near the school, then fled into a crowd of people in the streets. Israel then opened fire. The residents, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared for their safety, said the Abu Askar brothers were known low-level Hamas militants. The attack occurred at mid-afternoon, when many people were out and about. Many people apparently stepped outside the shelter to get some air, thinking an area around a school was safe. Palestinian militants frequently fire from residential areas. However, Mohammed Nassar, a medic who treated the wounded, said he saw no gunmen among the casualties. Footage broadcast on Hamas' Al Aqsa TV showed gruesome scenes at the hospital. At first, medics carried in at least five younger boys who were laid out on the hospital floor. It was not clear whether they were alive. Other medics then started unloading bodies of men who had been stacked up in the back of an ambulance, three high, and were dragged without stretchers. One man's legs had been turned into bloody stumps that dragged on the ground as he was pulled from the ambulance. The emergency room was packed, with all beds occupied and barely a patch of ground unoccupied by either a body or a doctor. In other rooms, there were bloodstains and bodies on the floor. Medics ran in to take pulses. "I saw a lot of women and children wheeled in," said Fares Ghanem, another hospital official. "A lot of the wounded were missing limbs and a lot of the dead were in pieces." Majed Hamdan, an AP photographer, said he rushed to the scene shortly after the attacks. At the hospital, he said, many children were among the dead. "I saw women and men � parents � slapping their faces in grief, screaming, some of them collapsed to the floor. They knew their children were dead," he said. "In the morgue, most of the killed appeared to be children. In the hospital, there wasn't enough space for the wounded." He said there were marks of five separate explosions, all in the area near the school. U.N. officials say they provided their location coordinates to Israel's army to ensure their buildings in Gaza are not targeted. Speaking shortly after the first attack, Maxwell Gaylard, the U.N. humanitarian coordinator for the Palestinian territories, demanded an investigation. "As one of the most densely populated places in the world, it is clear that more civilians will be killed," he said. "These tragic incidents need to be investigated, and if international humanitarian law has been contravened, those responsible must held accountable." In Britain, Prime Minister Gordon Brown called it "the darkest moment yet for the Middle East." He said he had been in touch with world leaders, including from Egypt and Turkey, to discuss ways to forge a cease-fire. Israel launched its offensive on Dec. 27 to halt repeated Palestinian rocket attacks on its southern towns. After a weeklong air campaign, Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza over the weekend. Ten Israelis have died since the operation began, including a soldier who was shot on Tuesday. United Nations staff estimate around 15,000 people have fled to 23 U.N.-run schools they have turned into makeshift shelters. U.N. food aid has halted in the northern Gaza Strip because officials fear residents would risk their lives to reach distribution centers. Tanks rumbled closer to the towns of Khan Younis and Dir el Balah in south and central Gaza but were still several kilometers (miles) outside, witnesses said, adding that the sounds of fighting could be heard from around the Israeli positions. Israel has encircled Gaza City, the area's biggest city. The civilian death toll has drawn international condemnations and raised concerns of a humanitarian disaster. Many Gazans are without electricity or running water, thousands have been displaced from their homes and residents say food supplies are running thin. "This is not a crisis, it's a disaster," said water utility official Munzir Shiblak. "We are not even able to respond to the cry of the people." He said about 800,000 residents in Gaza City and northern parts of the territory had no access to running water from Tuesday. Gaza's overall population is 1.4 million people. Israel says it won't stop the assault until its southern towns are freed of the threat of Palestinian rocket fire and it receives international guarantees that Hamas, a militant group backed by Iran and Syria, will not restock its weapons stockpile. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he hoped to stop the offensive soon, but said it would depend on Hamas' willingness to stop attacks and stop smuggling weapons into Gaza from Egypt. "We have no interest in endlessly continuing the campaign. It will stop when the conditions that are essential for Israel's security are met," he said in the rocket-scarred southern Israeli town of Sderot. The army says it has dealt a harsh blow to Hamas, killing 130 militants in the past two days and greatly reducing the rocket fire. Hamas is believed to have 20,000 fighters. Israeli forces have seized the main Gaza highway in several places, cutting the strip into northern, southern and central sectors. Israel also has taken over high-rise buildings in Gaza City and destroyed dozens of smuggling tunnels � Hamas' main lifeline � along the Egyptian border. A high-level European Union delegation met with President Shimon Peres on Tuesday in a futile bid to end the violence. Commissioner Benita Ferraro-Waldner acknowledged Israel's right to self-defense, but said its response was disproportionate. "We have come to Israel in order to advance the initiative for a humanitarian cease-fire and I will tell you, Mr. President, that you have a serious problem with international advocacy, and that Israel's image is being destroyed," she said, according to a statement from Peres' office. Israeli leaders say there is no humanitarian crisis and that they have allowed the delivery of vital supplies. French President Nicolas Sarkozy left Israel after a day of meetings with leaders. Sarkozy continued to Damascus, urging Syria on Tuesday to pressure Hamas to end the fighting. His Syrian counterpart, Bashar Assad, slammed the Israeli assault on the coastal strip as a "war crime" and "barbaric," an "aggression" that Israel must halt. In Washington, the State Department said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was traveling to the United Nations Tuesday to try to broker a sustainable cease-fire. She planned meetings with Arab and European diplomats to lobby for a three-tiered U.S. truce proposal and will then attend a U.N. Security Council meeting on Gaza, spokesman Sean McCormack said. Key elements demanded by the U.S.: an end to rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza and securing border crossings between Gaza and Israel and between Gaza and Egypt. Israel's operation has angered many across the Arab world and has drawn criticism from Turkey, Egypt and Jordan, which have ties with Israel and have been involved in Mideast peacemaking. ___ Barzak reported from Gaza City, Weizman from Jerusalem.

>>Source<<

Hamas had been firing morats from outside the school.
There are IAF footages that show and prove this.
Israel is considering filing an official complaint to the UN regarding this.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3651783,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3651804,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3651722,00.html

And here's a video from october 2007 showing Hamas terrorists firing mortars from a UN school, using the civilian population as a human shield:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI

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Originally posted by buitre First, it says on wiki that the logic fallacy assumes the form of "Hitler supported/promoted/had/was identified by X, so X must be evil". I don't understand how's that has anything to do with negating Jake Benson's argument. Second, here's something I came across the web: http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=8be7a14d.flv

Hamas is not the Nazi Party. That's what negates his argument. It's a false comparison.

i think this is the root to all middle eastern problems

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Originally posted by IlanG Hamas had been firing morats from outside the school. There are IAF footages that show and prove this. Israel is considering filing an official complaint to the UN regarding this.

Boofuckinghoo

So that gives Israel the right to do terrorist attacks by killing civilians?

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Originally posted by Krypton Hamas is not the Nazi Party. That's what negates his argument. It's a false comparison.

that's not an argument krypton, you're basically saying analogies are invalid by their own nature (by not elaborating on what invalidates this particular analogy).

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Originally posted by Psy-T that's not an argument krypton, you're basically saying analogies are invalid by their own nature (by not elaborating on what invalidates this particular analogy).

Ok, so Palestinians voted for Hamas just as the Germans for the Nazi Party...great, so does the invalidate all other free and fair elections? Since we're going on that logic...

I reckon we should send people from all around the world (e.g. those starving guys in Africa, and some extra male peasants from Western China) to Israel/Palestine and create a multicultural state where everyone is a minority. For good measure, we should also teach them how to speak Cree, and make it their lingua franca. Extremists would soon be outnumbered and fractured, so they would be no different than any nutty minor political party in the US, for example. They should also have the right to pick a new name, preferably a neuter one like "Eastern Mediterranea", or something of that sort.

There's no way this could possibly go wrong, hah!

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Originally posted by Krypton Ok, so Palestinians voted for Hamas just as the Germans for the Nazi Party...great, so does the invalidate all other free and fair elections? Since we're going on that logic...

it doesn't invalidate anything.

Fir3start3r said "Maybe the people there shouldn't have voted in their own demise?"
hardcore trancer replied "wow so you gonna come and tell them who then vote for or not?They voted freely for Hamas.The world should resepect that."

in a somewhat radical interpretation, what it does do is remove the automatic tag of innocence bestowed on palestine's civilian citizens.


to elaborate a bit:
if you vote for a political party whose platform includes "death to all people named alon" or something along those lines, and that party wins the elctions.. shouldn't i hold you as partly guilty for any attempts to kill me (be they successfull or not)?

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Originally posted by Lemonad Boofuckinghoo So that gives Israel the right to do terrorist attacks by killing civilians?

where've you been dude? everyone already knows Hamas purposely sets up their HQ's and operations facilities in the middle of densley packed civillian areas because they know what will happen, and how they'll be able to exploit civillian suffering to the world. If you think Hamas gives a rat's ass about the normal people of Gaza, I want what you're smoking. They're just pawns in their parasitic game.

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from Jan 2, 2009 Hamas - Fathi Hamad by bivouac-id translation: For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry In which excel the women and all the people of this land: The older people excel, the jihadists excel And the children excel Consequently, [the Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children Older people and jihadists Against the Zionist bombing machine That is telling the Zionist enemy We want death just as much as you desire life.

these fucknuts, this DEATH CULT, is willing to do anything and kill anybody (women, children, the elderly, rival militants) in their war of perception. it's the only war they are capable of winning and have been excelling at it for decades.

i say Israel should cease fire immediately regardless of the loss in tactical advantage and have Olmert (preferably Livni) call a special session of the UN Security Council or even the entire UN and start pounding fists on a podium (MAKE IT A FUCKING SPECTACLE IF YOU HAVE TO!!!) and bring all the evidence you've got of human rights and basic LOAC violations perptrated by the Hamas government.

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Originally posted by Psy-T it doesn't invalidate anything. Fir3start3r said "Maybe the people there shouldn't have voted in their own demise?" hardcore trancer replied "wow so you gonna come and tell them who then vote for or not?They voted freely for Hamas.The world should resepect that." in a somewhat radical interpretation, what it does do is remove the automatic tag of innocence bestowed on palestine's civilian citizens. to elaborate a bit: if you vote for a political party whose platform includes "death to all people named alon" or something along those lines, and that party wins the elctions.. shouldn't i hold you as partly guilty for any attempts to kill me (be they successfull or not)?

What you left out is the very real grievances with which the Palestinians have. Namely, the blockade. I view, as would most countries, a blockade to be an act of war. So whatever retaliation Gaza's rulers have undertaken is justified. I'm not going to fall for this, "The Palestinians are just blood thirsty killers" argument.

Some 'moral clarity' for those that can't shake the Palestinian propaganda machine...

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January 02, 2009 A Real Cease-Fire Needed in Gaza By Charles Krauthammer Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27 WASHINGTON -- Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating. Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people. This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel. For Hamas the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom). At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers. That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza. What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly. The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence. Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel. Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror. Hamas' rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire. If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost again. It can ill afford to lose any more wars.

>>Source<<

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Some 'moral clarity' for those that can't shake the Palestinian propaganda machine... >>Source<<

Stop spamming Israelipropaganda bullshit here.

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